Pregnant High School Senior Denied Attendance At Graduation Ceremony

[wilkeliza]

It's one thing to have rules about behaviour at school, it's another to try to control kids outside of school.

Dress codes: things that are a safety issue like closed toed shoes sure but banning nose rings or long hair on boys has nothing to do with education

Dress codes actually have a lot to do with education. It has been shown that some bullying can be curbed when kids are forced to wear the same thing. That way no one has anything different then anyone else in an educational setting. Also it can reduce a lot of the daily pre-school stress for many kids. If you can only choose between 3 colors of polos and two pants/skirts then it is much easier then pulling from your entire wardrobe. Heck my public school elementary and middle school only let us have Red or White colored polo style shirts and khaki or black pants/shorts/skorts/skirts/romper. In addition it was black and/or white tennis shoes. That was it. It pretty much cut down on any clothes based bulling or "other" because 90% of us just had the school issued stuff our parents could buy at a significantly reduced rate a week or two before school started. Even in gym we all work the same exact thing. I have to admit when I moved and there was no uniform I was so confused that I could wear what I wanted to at school and it did make daily decisions harder because I was always so worried was I going to pick something that made me get picked on because I had mostly good will clothes.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Dress codes actually have a lot to do with education. It has been shown that some bullying can be curbed when kids are forced to wear the same thing. That way no one has anything different then anyone else in an educational setting. Also it can reduce a lot of the daily pre-school stress for many kids. If you can only choose between 3 colors of polos and two pants/skirts then it is much easier then pulling from your entire wardrobe. Heck my public school elementary and middle school only let us have Red or White colored polo style shirts and khaki or black pants/shorts/skorts/skirts/romper. In addition it was black and/or white tennis shoes. That was it. It pretty much cut down on any clothes based bulling or "other" because 90% of us just had the school issued stuff our parents could buy at a significantly reduced rate a week or two before school started. Even in gym we all work the same exact thing. I have to admit when I moved and there was no uniform I was so confused that I could wear what I wanted to at school and it did make daily decisions harder because I was always so worried was I going to pick something that made me get picked on because I had mostly good will clothes.

did you get picked on much for that? Asking because I'm genuinely curious- I was bullied quite a bit in middle school and I was never a fashionable dresser but I wasn't bullied over clothes.

Wanted to add to that I think clothes can be a discipline problem. Teens don't have good judgement sometimes. I can think of two totally inappropriate things I've seen working in schools:

1. Guys: thug/gang/obscene Tshirt slogan. I'm not talking about "tough guys" I'm talking about skinny white middle class kids. Racist and misogynist crap that has no place in school setting.

2. Girls: I am not ever going to shame a girl for their body. But I agree with a male colleague who once said he felt really uncomfortable teaching in front of certain kids because of how little they wore to school. And it's really weird- we aren't talking about 18 year olds who might have their own money, we're talking about 14 year olds whose parents must have paid for it. I mean I've had swimsuits less revealing, and I'm not really a prude.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Dress codes actually have a lot to do with education. It has been shown that some bullying can be curbed when kids are forced to wear the same thing. That way no one has anything different then anyone else in an educational setting. Also it can reduce a lot of the daily pre-school stress for many kids. If you can only choose between 3 colors of polos and two pants/skirts then it is much easier then pulling from your entire wardrobe. Heck my public school elementary and middle school only let us have Red or White colored polo style shirts and khaki or black pants/shorts/skorts/skirts/romper. In addition it was black and/or white tennis shoes. That was it. It pretty much cut down on any clothes based bulling or "other" because 90% of us just had the school issued stuff our parents could buy at a significantly reduced rate a week or two before school started. Even in gym we all work the same exact thing. I have to admit when I moved and there was no uniform I was so confused that I could wear what I wanted to at school and it did make daily decisions harder because I was always so worried was I going to pick something that made me get picked on because I had mostly good will clothes.

Eh coming from the opposite side (other than gym class) dress codes are more or less about ensuring you were wearing the least offensive type of clothing.

Skirts being at a certain length or clothing revealing too much skin, pants that sagged and showed your undergarments, inappropriate words or suggestive words things like that, etc.

For me I would have personally hated wearing uniforms. They totally worked for you and hey all props but it wouldn't have alleviated daily pre-school stress for me as I didn't have any to begin with, nor did we have bullying issues regarding clothes (sure certain kids wore certain types of clothes but you weren't looked down upon if you got your clothes at X place vs Y place).

When my mom worked at JCP she heard all the complaints from parents who had to buy the uniforms for their kids a lot centered on cost and availability of places that had the specific type of uniforms the school wanted. Plus the parents complained about the amount of laundry they had to do or that they had to buy a certain amount of uniforms so as to keep the laundry amount down but then there was the whole "kids grow out of clothes" situation.

 

[wilkeliza]

did you get picked on much for that? Asking because I'm genuinely curious- I was bullied quite a bit in middle school and I was never a fashionable dresser but I wasn't bullied over clothes.

Wanted to add to that I think clothes can be a discipline problem. Teens don't have good judgement sometimes. I can think of two totally inappropriate things I've seen working in schools:

1. Guys: thug/gang/obscene Tshirt slogan. I'm not talking about "tough guys" I'm talking about skinny white middle class kids. Racist and misogynist crap that has no place in school setting.

2. Girls: I am not ever going to shame a girl for their body. But I agree with a male colleague who once said he felt really uncomfortable teaching in front of certain kids because of how little they wore to school. And it's really weird- we aren't talking about 18 year olds who might have their own money, we're talking about 14 year olds whose parents must have paid for it. I mean I've had swimsuits less revealing, and I'm not really a prude.

Yep. I dressed too much like a boy and got made fun of all the time. I wasn't "girly" enough. So my t-shirts and blue jeans were often a thing for ridicule.

 

[wilkeliza]

Eh coming from the opposite side (other than gym class) dress codes are more or less about ensuring you were wearing the least offensive type of clothing.

Skirts being at a certain length or clothing revealing too much skin, pants that sagged and showed your undergarments, inappropriate words or suggestive words things like that, etc.

For me I would have personally hated wearing uniforms. They totally worked for you and hey all props but it wouldn't have alleviated daily pre-school stress for me as I didn't have any to begin with, nor did we have bullying issues regarding clothes (sure certain kids wore certain types of clothes but you weren't looked down upon if you got your clothes at X place vs Y place).

When my mom worked at JCP she heard all the complaints from parents who had to buy the uniforms for their kids a lot centered on cost and availability of places that had the specific type of uniforms the school wanted. Plus the parents complained about the amount of laundry they had to do or that they had to buy a certain amount of uniforms so as to keep the laundry amount down but then there was the whole "kids grow out of clothes" situation.

I guess in my first round of schools no one knew anything different. Every school had a pretty strict uniform based dress code. Didn't matter if you were at the lowest public school to the highest private for our area. I guess we just didn't even know any better and we definitely didn't have to buy our stuff at JcPenny the local discount place had the uniforms we needed (since it wasn't specific type just a polo style or khaki) and shoes. I remember they even had then at Wal-Mart for like 5 dollars each piece.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yep. I dressed too much like a boy and got made fun of all the time. I wasn't "girly" enough. So my t-shirts and blue jeans were often a thing for ridicule.

Well I'll just tell you that was in no way shape or form my experience at all.

Good lord probably 99% of the time girls wore jeans and t-shirts in all of my schools. If you wore skirts/dresses and whatnot you probably stood out more and likely you were wearing that to 'dress up' for the day (often you would if it was first day of class). Nobody cared if you wore a t-shirt that was more loose versus more tight. Really baggy (think like 2 or 3 sizes too big) stuff was likely against dress code though.

I guess in my first round of schools no one knew anything different. Every school had a pretty strict uniform based dress code. Didn't matter if you were at the lowest public school to the highest private for our area. I guess we just didn't even know any better and we definitely didn't have to buy our stuff at JcPenny the local discount place had the uniforms we needed (since it wasn't specific type just a polo style or khaki) and shoes. I remember they even had then at Wal-Mart for like 5 dollars each piece.

Hmmm interesting how different areas are for sure.

 

[bcla]

When my mom worked at JCP she heard all the complaints from parents who had to buy the uniforms for their kids a lot centered on cost and availability of places that had the specific type of uniforms the school wanted. Plus the parents complained about the amount of laundry they had to do or that they had to buy a certain amount of uniforms so as to keep the laundry amount down but then there was the whole "kids grow out of clothes" situation.

When I went to a Catholic elementary school, the uniform requirements were specific. It had to be a specialized sweater, and there was basically one store in our area that had it, and they specialized in private school uniforms. Eventually our pants were changed from salt and pepper trousers (which we could only find at this uniform store) to gray corduroy pants, and those were easier to find. Our shoes had to be brown leather shoes, although a specific pattern wasn't required. We could typically find what we needed at Stride Rite. We started off with round toed shoes, but later on got Stride Rite cruisers. Those were a real pain because we had to do everything with those, including playing kickball and touch football. They were woefully suited for that duty, but we wore our uniforms and dress shoes during athletic activity.

That didn't necessarily stop the whole fashion thing. While we all wore the same dress uniform, but we did typically bring in jackets since the sweaters were rarely enough on a cold day. The really popular one was the Derby jacket, and I think two-thirds of the boys at school had them. They were kind of pricey, but my parents finally bought one for me when they were 50% at a local department store. Still - I got mocked because they weren't bought at full price (not even sure why I mentioned it).

 

[wilkeliza]

Well I'll just tell you that was in no way shape or form my experience at all.

Good lord probably 99% of the time girls wore jeans and t-shirts in all of my schools. If you wore skirts/dresses and whatnot you probably stood out more and likely you were wearing that to 'dress up' for the day (often you would if it was first day of class). Nobody cared if you wore a t-shirt that was more loose versus more tight. Really baggy (think like 2 or 3 sizes too big) stuff was likely against dress code though.

Hmmm interesting how different areas are for sure.

Of course it can be different based on area. Many girls still worse jeans but maybe with a bedazzled t-shirt or a blouse. It was south Texas after all. I usually had hand me downs from my brothers or just about as plain and plain can get. I also would wear flannel button ups but not the girl fit of them stuff like that. I didn't ever like to show curves so hated anything fit cut which was the style. I also didn't do the whole 90s 20s kids styles. Still think most of them are awful. My brother was way into all of it though until he went goth. I'll honest never forget when a bunch of girls blocked me from entering the dorm at summer camp because I was a boy and belonged in the boys dorm not the girls dorm. It took a friend coming by for me to even get into my room! So yeah while it wasn't your experience it was mine so glad you got off easy as a kid.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Of course it can be different based on area. Many girls still worse jeans but maybe with a bedazzled t-shirt or a blouse. It was south Texas after all. I usually had hand me downs from my brothers or just about as plain and plain can get. I also would wear flannel button ups but not the girl fit of them stuff like that. I didn't ever like to show curves so hated anything fit cut which was the style. I also didn't do the whole 90s 20s kids styles. Still think most of them are awful. My brother was way into all of it though until he went goth. I'll honest never forget when a bunch of girls blocked me from entering the dorm at summer camp because I was a boy and belonged in the boys dorm not the girls dorm. It took a friend coming by for me to even get into my room! So yeah while it wasn't your experience it was mine so glad you got off easy as a kid.

Well I didn't say I didn't have my own issues or that there wasn't stuff kids did to get made fun of in my schools so no I "didn't get off easy as a kid" and that's a bit simplistic to think that way.

But being made fun of for clothing such that you described wasn't one of the issues. Who you hung out with, what activities you were involved in, your grades to an extent (teacher's pet stigma, etc), etc those were things that kids paid attention to and I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff as well (probably blocked it out haha). But wearing jeans and a t-shirt wasn't one of them nor was wearing non-tight/form-fitting attire.

I was more or less coming at it from a standpoint that you presented with respects to uniforms. For you uniforms absolved you from stress and being made fun of for clothing (which you were when you went to schools that didn't have uniforms) but the reason you got made fun of when you didn't have uniforms isn't the reason why majority of schools have dress codes to begin with.

 

[wilkeliza]

Well I didn't say I didn't have my own issues or that there wasn't stuff kids did to get made fun of in my schools so no I "didn't get off easy as a kid" and that's a bit simplistic to think that way.

But being made fun of for clothing such that you described wasn't one of the issues. Who you hung out with, what activities you were involved in, your grades to an extent (teacher's pet stigma, etc), etc those were things that kids paid attention to and I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff as well (probably blocked it out haha). But wearing jeans and a t-shirt wasn't one of them nor was wearing non-tight/form-fitting attire.

I was more or less coming at it from a standpoint that you presented with respects to uniforms. For you uniforms absolved you from stress and being made fun of for clothing (which you were when you went to schools that didn't have uniforms) but the reason you got made fun of when you didn't have uniforms isn't the reason why majority of schools have dress codes to begin with.

I'm probably being sensitive but it was the questioning that it was even an issue that I faced that rubbed me the wrong way. On the less bullying, less focusinf on fashion front those were the reason the schools actually gave us as kids. If you asked why you had to wear it they would say because now you can focus on your teacher and education and not what suzy or jack work on Tuesday.

I guess I just didn't get the need to question when I said clothes actually caused me a lot of anixety because of bullying and I missed the dress code I had at my old district because it reduced all of that to nothing.

 

[Magpie]

Of course it can be different based on area. Many girls still worse jeans but maybe with a bedazzled t-shirt or a blouse. It was south Texas after all. I usually had hand me downs from my brothers or just about as plain and plain can get. I also would wear flannel button ups but not the girl fit of them stuff like that. I didn't ever like to show curves so hated anything fit cut which was the style. I also didn't do the whole 90s 20s kids styles. Still think most of them are awful. My brother was way into all of it though until he went goth. I'll honest never forget when a bunch of girls blocked me from entering the dorm at summer camp because I was a boy and belonged in the boys dorm not the girls dorm. It took a friend coming by for me to even get into my room! So yeah while it wasn't your experience it was mine so glad you got off easy as a kid.

Aw... I'm sorry that happened to you.

I was the "ugly" girl for such a long time (kids would sneer and make gagging noises whenever I got too close, especially the boys), that I really internalized that image of myself. It's still surprising to me, to see my old pictures and realize I was a perfectly cute little girl. Not hideous in any way, though my glasses were coke-bottle thick and my clothes were hand-me-downs.

When I got that scholarship to a private school, uniforms were truly a relief. It wasn't easy affording them - there was only one store in town that sold them, and it was pricey. Even your socks and shoes had to be purchased there. But, at least my mum only had to buy one set and it was good for the entire year.

And yes, you could still tell the rich kids and the fashionistas, by their designer jackets and the boots they'd change into after school, but it was still SO much easier. You weren't walking around wearing a huge blinking neon sign that said, "I'm different from all of you."

In general, I'm fairly pro-uniform. That said, my kids did okay in public schools without uniforms. The rules were fairly simple... skirts had to be longer than your fingertips, straps had to be at least two fingers wide. Shirts should cover your midsection when seated. Nothing with messages that were political, religious, violent or drug-related could be worn. Hair could be any length or colour they liked. Even cross dressing was fine - one of my daughter's classmates was a girl at school and a boy at home (he didn't feel comfortable telling his parents he was a girl).

Some of the girls did try to be fashion police, including one who deeply offended my jeans-and-tee wearing daughter in sixth grade by bringing in a garbage bag full of her cast-offs, for my daughter to wear. She just couldn't understand why anyone would dress in jeans and tees by choice, and assumed my daughter must have nothing else.

I think that might have been the first time I saw my kid get truly outraged over something (she's normally extremely forgiving and agreeable). She flatly refused to change her style one iota, feeling (probably correctly) that this was a kind of power play by the other girl. An attempt at social control by imposing conformity. I sometimes say my girl is like one of those non-Newtonian fluids. She'll go with the flow, right up to the point where you try to put pressure on her. Then she becomes a solid.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm probably being sensitive but it was the questioning that it was even an issue that I faced that rubbed me the wrong way. On the less bullying, less focusinf on fashion front those were the reason the schools actually gave us as kids. If you asked why you had to wear it they would say because now you can focus on your teacher and education and not what suzy or jack work on Tuesday.

I guess I just didn't get the need to question when I said clothes actually caused me a lot of anixety because of bullying and I missed the dress code I had at my old district because it reduced all of that to nothing.

I don't believe I was questioning that it was even an issue?? Apologies if you got that impression.

You framed 'uniforms are good' based on your experience it seemed. I was giving my experience on having not worn uniforms. There wasn't a questioning it was an issue at all for you just me giving my experience. I and another poster were explaining why majority of schools have dress codes and it's not really for the reasons you described (wearing jeans and a t-shirt and appearing less girly). It's more for controlling inappropriate/offensive things.

But I also think you sorta presented it like because I wasn't made fun of for wearing jeans and a t-shirt that I didn't have or that there wasn't other things you could do that could get you made fun of. Assuming that because my area didn't pay attention to wearing jeans and a t-shirt doesn't equate to "getting off easy as a kid". Thus my comment about that being a simplistic way of thinking about it.

 

[wilkeliza]

I don't believe I was questioning that it was even an issue?? Apologies if you got that impression.

You framed 'uniforms are good' based on your experience it seemed. I was giving my experience on having not worn uniforms. There wasn't a questioning it was an issue at all for you just me giving my experience. I and another poster were explaining why majority of schools have dress codes and it's not really for the reasons you described (wearing jeans and a t-shirt and appearing less girly). It's more for controlling inappropriate/offensive things.

But I also think you sorta presented it like because I wasn't made fun of for wearing jeans and a t-shirt that I didn't have or that there wasn't other things you could do that could get you made fun of. Assuming that because my area didn't pay attention to wearing jeans and a t-shirt doesn't equate to "getting off easy as a kid". Thus my comment about that being a simplistic way of thinking about it.

I do admit now that I got you mixed up with the poster right before you whose response was questioning. Of course I should not have simplified it it just seemed two posters being shocked that fashion was actually the reason our school gave (when it change it older grades it was due to gang stuff but elementary/intermediate was solely fashion and evening the playing field) and I know because I asked and because my mom was a teachers aid. So we'll have to agree that yes we all have different experiences but there are some districts that have gone the route of uniforms not to control inappropriate/offensive things but other reasons such as mine which was always solely based on removing as many variables of "difference" as possible on a daily basis. I even remember the class we were assigned to and thus who we played with for 7ish grades was always based on ability so that wasn't even a thing you got made fun of and we didn't have the same recess as kids in different groups or lunch. The only time you saw the others was during assembly or field day. It worked at our school but I guess it also means we loss the benefit of not being with kids with less academic ability etc.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I think wilkeliza makes a very good point on dress codes. I wouldn't say people in my school were made fun of, if they didn't follow current fashion trends, but they were definitely shunned by those who did. You could forget getting into the in crowd wearing cheap clothes. I spent almost as much time choosing my outfit for the next day as I did studying. Sleepovers were often spent trying on outfits for feedback & seeing which clothes were interchangeable amongst friends. The clothes & shoes were often too expensive for our parents to buy more than a few outfits at a time. Based on my younger relatives who are still in school there, nothing has changed. I realize this may not be an issue at some schools, but it definitely exists in others. A dress code in my schools would probably have made the middle & high school experience much more enjoyable for those who couldn't afford to dress to please the hierarchy.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Aw... I'm sorry that happened to you.

I was the "ugly" girl for such a long time (kids would sneer and make gagging noises whenever I got too close, especially the boys), that I really internalized that image of myself. It's still surprising to me, to see my old pictures and realize I was a perfectly cute little girl. Not hideous in any way, though my glasses were coke-bottle thick and my clothes were hand-me-downs.

When I got that scholarship to a private school, uniforms were truly a relief. It wasn't easy affording them - there was only one store in town that sold them, and it was pricey. Even your socks and shoes had to be purchased there. But, at least my mum only had to buy one set and it was good for the entire year.

And yes, you could still tell the rich kids and the fashionistas, by their designer jackets and the boots they'd change into after school, but it was still SO much easier. You weren't walking around wearing a huge blinking neon sign that said, "I'm different from all of you."

In general, I'm fairly pro-uniform. That said, my kids did okay in public schools without uniforms. The rules were fairly simple... skirts had to be longer than your fingertips, straps had to be at least two fingers wide. Shirts should cover your midsection when seated. Nothing with messages that were political, religious, violent or drug-related could be worn. Hair could be any length or colour they liked. Even cross dressing was fine - one of my daughter's classmates was a girl at school and a boy at home (he didn't feel comfortable telling his parents he was a girl).

Some of the girls did try to be fashion police, including one who deeply offended my jeans-and-tee wearing daughter in sixth grade by bringing in a garbage bag full of her cast-offs, for my daughter to wear. She just couldn't understand why anyone would dress in jeans and tees by choice, and assumed my daughter must have nothing else.

I think that might have been the first time I saw my kid get truly outraged over something (she's normally extremely forgiving and agreeable). She flatly refused to change her style one iota, feeling (probably correctly) that this was a kind of power play by the other girl. An attempt at social control by imposing conformity. I sometimes say my girl is like one of those non-Newtonian fluids. She'll go with the flow, right up to the point where you try to put pressure on her. Then she becomes a solid.

I was like your kid. Finally figured out that "girly" gifts that I'd taken offense to in middle school were from genuinely nice classmates that enjoyed dressing up and stuff from bath and body works and had assumed I didn't have the option to get girly stuff at home. Not the case- I just didn't care to shop and my mom wasn't the kind of person to buy me stuff without me asking for it. And strong odors gave me headaches so I hated bath and body works.(I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't a power play in your kid's case. It just isn't always.)

Sure, part of it was body image. But most of it is that I didn't know how to shop and didn't really care to learn.

I'm not saying that uniforms don't make a difference. But the worst of the bullies pick likely targets and then hit them at their weak spot. Clothes are just one thing that make a kid a target. If you stop reacting to jibes about your clothing, the mean kids start on something totally different- your hair color, height, hobbies, grades, what you did over the summer.

So I don't necessarily agree that uniforms really solve a bullying problem. It might reduce the visible divisions. But that doesn't mean kids aren't still being bullied. You dress kids exactly alike, hair styled exactly the same- they still can tell you who the insiders and outsiders are. They know who the targets are. The power dynamic and insecurities are NOT reduced or removed.

 

[Magpie]

I was like your kid. Finally figured out that "girly" gifts that I'd taken offense to in middle school were from genuinely nice classmates that enjoyed dressing up and stuff from bath and body works and had assumed I didn't have the option to get girly stuff at home. Not the case- I just didn't care to shop and my mom wasn't the kind of person to buy me stuff without me asking for it. And strong odors gave me headaches so I hated bath and body works.(I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't a power play in your kid's case. It just isn't always.)

Sure, part of it was body image. But most of it is that I didn't know how to shop and didn't really care to learn.

I'm not saying that uniforms don't make a difference. But the worst of the bullies pick likely targets and then hit them at their weak spot. Clothes are just one thing that make a kid a target. If you stop reacting to jibes about your clothing, the mean kids start on something totally different- your hair color, height, hobbies, grades, what you did over the summer.

So I don't necessarily agree that uniforms really solve a bullying problem. It might reduce the visible divisions. But that doesn't mean kids aren't still being bullied. You dress kids exactly alike, hair styled exactly the same- they still can tell you who the insiders and outsiders are. They know who the targets are. The power dynamic and insecurities are NOT reduced or removed.

Oh, I don't think uniforms solve bullying at all. I just think they can be a small part of an overall strategy to reduce social aggression and encourage a sense of community and belonging.

Bullying has to be fought from multiple angles.

1. On the home front - it starts with not being a bully yourself. Don't use your superior power to coerce or control or humiliate your child. Teach your child that they matter as a person, that their opinions matter, and that they are respected, even when they can't always get their way.

2. In schools - respect your students. Listen to them. Avoid zero tolerance policies, and treat your young people as individuals. Teach students to identify bullying and empower them to stand up to it.

3. In school administration - give teachers a voice. Give them a reasonable level of autonomy in their own classrooms. Avoid legalistic policies that do more harm than good.

Essentially, the only way to combat bullying is by encouraging respect on all levels and community-building.

My local (edit: public) schools actually did a great job of teaching kids where the line is, and how to appropriate react - as a group! - to incidents of bullying.

A perfect example would be when my daughter got into a argument with another girl, in her high school locker room. She was in grade 9, as was the other girl, but due to the way the classes were organized the other girls in the room were older. Note - my daughter was born with a large birthmark on her upper lip, and wasn't entirely done with her surgeries at this point, so she looked a bit different.

The girls bickered back and forth for a bit, and eventually the other girl, frustrated that she was losing the logical argument, said, "Well... you're UGLY!"

Immediately, all the older girls who'd been ignoring the fight to this point, turned around en masse and said, "HEY! You can't SAY that to her!"

My daughter came home in an absolute state of astonishment, that people who didn't even know her would stand up for her. I give full credit to the years of training these kids have had, with regards to what's acceptable, and what isn't, and how you're expected to respond. (ie, nip it in the bud, before it escalates)

Back when I was in public school, all I would have done was think, "Thank God she's not saying I'm ugly!" And if I'd been the target, no one would have stood up for me. One of the reasons I applied for that private school scholarship, was because one of that school's girls (in uniform, which is how I knew what school she was from!) stood up for me when some of my schoolmates were harassing me on public transit. She wasn't even from my own school, and she still stood up and told them to go take a flying leap (in less nice words), because her family, her school, and her world had taught her she had a voice.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I do admit now that I got you mixed up with the poster right before you whose response was questioning. Of course I should not have simplified it it just seemed two posters being shocked that fashion was actually the reason our school gave (when it change it older grades it was due to gang stuff but elementary/intermediate was solely fashion and evening the playing field) and I know because I asked and because my mom was a teachers aid. So we'll have to agree that yes we all have different experiences but there are some districts that have gone the route of uniforms not to control inappropriate/offensive things but other reasons such as mine which was always solely based on removing as many variables of "difference" as possible on a daily basis. I even remember the class we were assigned to and thus who we played with for 7ish grades was always based on ability so that wasn't even a thing you got made fun of and we didn't have the same recess as kids in different groups or lunch. The only time you saw the others was during assembly or field day. It worked at our school but I guess it also means we loss the benefit of not being with kids with less academic ability etc.

It's no biggie. FWIW I don't think the other poster was questioning nor was I in a way that saying you didn't actually experience what you did; of course I believe you experienced what you did and FTR it sucks you had that experience. I was just trying to provide a different prospective.

Honestly though the way you described it was less like fashion and more like what specific peers around you thought girls should dress like. Maybe I just have a different definition of fashion.

As to the whole removing variables of "difference" I can't negate that's what may be going on or that is being advised is the 'why' behind the policy. But kids will always find things to make fun of others for. For example one of the weird things I got made fun of for when I was in elementary school was because my parents were divorced. That wasn't a problem. What was the issue is that my parents requested the school district give two sets of everything deemed important enough to me. I believe less paperwork was physically given to me and more mailed by the time middle school rolled around but in elementary school I got a ton of things given to me to give to my parents. Anywho I was the odd person out because I was the one kid who had to be "special" in the not-so-nice way. Uniforms and segregating based on ability wouldn't have saved me from being the "special" kid. On a general note physical development or lack there of is another thing that wouldn't saved by uniforms and segregating based on ability. And the list goes on. There are a million in one things that one can be made fun of. I just personally think the advocating of uniforms=all problems solved misses the mark.

Now this is purely personal experience and in no way reflects what you experienced just my ramblings here but on the academic ability aspect I was one of the smartest (and at times the smartest) of all my friends but I absolutely loved being around all types of people and I never made anyone around me feel less than me in fact most of the time I tried to divert the attention away from me because I didn't want people to think I thought I was better than them. There are many different intelligences out there and being book smart for example is just one of them;I gained so much other experience being friends with people who weren't like me. My sister (3 years older than me) on the other hand only associated with people who were near her level of book smart intelligences and shunned those who weren't on the same academic level as her. That got her quite the reputation in a bad way.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Oh, I don't think uniforms solve bullying at all. I just think they can be a small part of an overall strategy to reduce social aggression and encourage a sense of community and belonging.

Bullying has to be fought from multiple angles.

1. On the home front - it starts with not being a bully yourself. Don't use your superior power to coerce or control or humiliate your child. Teach your child that they matter as a person, that their opinions matter, and that they are respected, even when they can't always get their way.

2. In schools - respect your students. Listen to them. Avoid zero tolerance policies, and treat your young people as individuals. Teach students to identify bullying and empower them to stand up to it.

3. In school administration - give teachers a voice. Give them a reasonable level of autonomy in their own classrooms. Avoid legalistic policies that do more harm than good.

Essentially, the only way to combat bullying is by encouraging respect on all levels and community-building.

My local schools actually did a great job of teaching kids where the line is, and how to appropriate react - as a group! - to incidents of bullying.

A perfect example would be when my daughter got into a argument with another girl, in her high school locker room. She was in grade 9, as was the other girl, but due to the way the classes were organized the other girls in the room were older. Note - my daughter was born with a large birthmark on her upper lip, and wasn't entirely done with her surgeries at this point, so she looked a bit different.

The girls bickered back and forth for a bit, and eventually the other girl, frustrated that she was losing the logical argument, said, "Well... you're UGLY!"

Immediately, all the older girls who'd been ignoring the fight to this point, turned around en masse and said, "HEY! You can't SAY that to her!"

My daughter came home in an absolute state of astonishment, that people who didn't even know her would stand up for her. I give full credit to the years of training these kids have had, with regards to what's acceptable, and what isn't, and how you're expected to respond. (ie, nip it in the bud, before it escalates)

Back when I was in public school, all I would have done was think, "Thank God she's not saying I'm ugly!" And if I'd been the target, no one would have stood up for me. One of the reasons I applied for that private school scholarship, was because one of that school's girls (in uniform, which is how I knew what school she was from!) stood up for me when some of my schoolmates were harassing me on public transit. She wasn't even from my own school, and she still stood up and told them to go take a flying leap (in less nice words), because her family, her school, and her world had taught her she had a voice.

I think what you describe is a great way of teaching.

But I'm not so certain this is a public vs private school situation. It would be unfair to paint the picture that public school is full of bullies and students just hope everyday they aren't the target of said bullies and people don't stick up for others. I'm certain there are bad apples of public and private schools out there.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think wilkeliza makes a very good point on dress codes. I wouldn't say people in my school were made fun of, if they didn't follow current fashion trends, but they were definitely shunned by those who did. You could forget getting into the in crowd wearing cheap clothes. I spent almost as much time choosing my outfit for the next day as I did studying. Sleepovers were often spent trying on outfits for feedback & seeing which clothes were interchangeable amongst friends. The clothes & shoes were often too expensive for our parents to buy more than a few outfits at a time. Based on my younger relatives who are still in school there, nothing has changed. I realize this may not be an issue at some schools, but it definitely exists in others. A dress code in my schools would probably have made the middle & high school experience much more enjoyable for those who couldn't afford to dress to please the hierarchy.

I'm sure you had a dress code..you know what type of clothing was acceptable (for instance skirts no higher than mid-thigh or no shirts with curse words or vulgarity or even saggy pants, etc). Uniforms is different than a dress code as a generality as least in the way most people reference a dress code.

I do know that dress code in my area a whole has changed and shifted over time and has had to in order to keep up with things. I know one district had in their dress code at one time about yoga pants because that was the 'it' thing at the time.

For example the current district that I am in has the following dress code at this time:


The District I grew up in (a neighboring district to the one I currently live in) has the following dress code at this time:


The other major neighboring district has the following dress code at this time:



You can clearly see a trend. Dress code as seen above is imposed to prevent offensive or potentially offensive/too revealing types of clothing which is what I was mentioning in the beginning with the other poster that majority of schools have dress codes for these types of reasons. Uniforms may alleviate some of clothing-based issues but it wouldn't eradicate bullying or sticking out. I would honestly think a more effective way is how Magpie explained the way the teaching was done there because you can find not so nice people in all different places.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I'm sure you had a dress code..you know what type of clothing was acceptable (for instance skirts no higher than mid-thigh or no shirts with curse words or vulgarity or even saggy pants, etc). Uniforms is different than a dress code as a generality as least in the way most people reference a dress code.

I do know that dress code in my area a whole has changed and shifted over time and has had to in order to keep up with things. I know one district had in their dress code at one time about yoga pants because that was the 'it' thing at the time.

For example the current district that I am in has the following dress code at this time:
View attachment 241269

The District I grew up in (a neighboring district to the one I currently live in) has the following dress code at this time:
View attachment 241270

The other major neighboring district has the following dress code at this time:
View attachment 241271
View attachment 241272

You can clearly see a trend. Dress code as seen above is imposed to prevent offensive or potentially offensive/too revealing types of clothing which is what I was mentioning in the beginning with the other poster that majority of schools have dress codes for these types of reasons. Uniforms may alleviate some of clothing-based issues but it wouldn't eradicate bullying or sticking out. I would honestly think a more effective way is how Magpie explained the way the teaching was done there because you can find not so nice people in all different places.

I grew up in a small town. I don't remember an official dress code at all. Basically, parents set the dress code by what they would allow their kids to wear. For us, it was more about the brand you wore than the actual style. From what I can tell, things haven't changed. Obviously, you grew up in a different environment than I did.