Potential Buyer, Availability (sorry for the length)

[Ozznato]

Hello everyone! Sorry for the radio silence since the post. I wanted to let the discussion breathe a bit (and I also forgot my login when I tried to post yesterday). I just want to thank everyone for your responses here, as it has been very informative and is very appreciated.

Everyone makes good points. Trying to run through a few of the questions I saw here, Yes I think the idea that they like more is a family vacation instead of a "disney" vacation, Yes I still think they really liked the RIV, and yes I appreciate the concerns of passing this along via estate etc. While this wouldn't financially handicap them, it would still be a big number - its not ashtray money. I am definitely capable of doing the reservations etc, but I understand that it is work.

I'm not the type to jump into a one week vacation without hours and weeks of research, let alone something like this. In short, while everyone might be excited about the opportunity, this post and entire endeavor was to assist in providing perspective and throwing some cold water so I can pitch both sides, and perhaps an idea that aligns with their goals.

Everyone has been great. In particular, Rose Gold's outline of the best way to pitch/discuss was helpful perspective. I also do not shy away from the estate planning discussion with them - but the outline of the "pitch" was great.

They are excited about this, but I think the eagerness to jump in with both feet and the entire family NOW will fade once they are off-property, and they will be inclined to make a more measured decision.

I have a few ideas on how to handle this conversation. One question for the group would be what DVC Resale company they recommend? Is DVC Resale Market the best?

I am torn between trying to push them towards a Beach Club or Boardwalk resale, or something like BLT with a longer deed time (theoretically more value). I also intend to use the current resale rates at Riv to showcase the issue - "If this is where you want to be (key word, you) and want to plan around, why not buy it at resale rate and save 30% off rack rate?"

I think either way I am going to recommend capping themselves at 100 points a year, no matter what they do. This should allow them to accomplish their room-size goals, keeps costs lower, and would more accurately align with what our WDW-desired usage would be.

For owners on this thread, how does everyone view their deed? If you're in a 2042, do you wish it ran till 2060? If you're a 2060, do you wish it ran until 2042?

As for other timeshare programs, does anyone have any particular experience or suggestions for what has paired well with their DVC membership? My parents will be inclined towards MVC since they are well experienced with the properties already.

Happy to answer additional questions if anyone thinks it would be useful to further the discussion.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

My inlaws are not disney people, but a few years ago, I reserved a room for them at bwv while we were there. They loved it. My point is, on the epcot side there is so much you can do that is non disney. If RR made your parents happy then it is a good investment in my opinion. There are so many restaurantsand shops and you never need your car. I think disney resort only stays are the most relaxing vacations. If your parents do not like the parks there are so many other things to do.

I own at the bcv and love it there. But if your parents love riv, they should buy there. Also bcv resale is not much cheaper than riv direct.
If they purchase bcv resale, they will never be able to stay at riv. My kids wish the bcv rooms were more like riv, but they love the location of bcv.

 

[Brian Noble]

and would more accurately align with what our WDW-desired usage would be.

One thing to note: every-other-year is probably the minimum that makes sense for using a DVC ownership. Every third year is theoretically possible, but it is much harder to manage without stranding points.

 

[Brian Noble]

does anyone have any particular experience or suggestions for what has paired well with their DVC membership?

My first recommendation is to start with another points-based system. Those are easier to use and understand than weeks-based ownerships, especially if you include the prospect of exchange.

Of the points-based players, the main alternatives are Marriott, Hilton, Wyndham, WorldMark, and Bluegreen. TL;DR: If you want to optimize luxury, consider Hilton if their locations work, and Marriott if you need more variety. If you want to spend a little less for something that isn't quite as luxurious, look at Wyndham if you live east of the Mississippi, WorldMark to if you live west. You can probably ignore Bluegreen.

Marriott is the top end of quality, with prices to match. Resale will definitely save you real money, but you will still pay at least in part because Marriott charges a junk fee of about 15-20% of retail to re-enroll points that you buy on the secondary market. Ongoing fees are more expensive than most competitors not named Disney (and might be comparable to Disney). They have a wide variety of destinations, many are in excellent locations, and they are nearly universally high-quality. Marriott has a fair number of international properties. Most of the others are primarily domestic.

Hilton is generally comparable to Marriott in quality. It is less expensive to buy and own. However, they have a much more limited number of destinations. Hilton tends to build multiple resorts in a smaller number of places repeatedly rather than spread them out. That will change a little bit depending on how the Diamond integration goes, but I would not count on that being accessible to a resale owner. If the Hilton locations work for you, it can be a good alternative to Marriott.

Wyndham is generally a notch lower in luxury, though there is also more variation. The flagship Wyndham resorts can compete with the name brands, but there are also older places that haven't necessarily been kept at the leading edge of design. They are all generally clean and comfortable. Where Marriott and Hilton might be 4-5 star, Wyndham might be 3-4. Wyndham has a huge set of locations, though with a bit of a bias east of the Mississippi and Hawaii. Wyndham is cheaper to own than the others so far, and much cheaper to buy (think pennies to a dime on the dollar.) Most of Wyndham's locations are great family vacation destinations, but they are not always in the cream-of-the-crop locations that some of the Marriotts have.

WorldMark is Wyndham's twin, except with a bias west of the MIssissippi rather than east of it. WorldMark is arguably slightly less fancy than Wyndham, but not everyone would agree with that. It is a little more expensive to buy, but a little less expensive to own.

Bluegreen, to me, isn't really in the consideration set. It's not particularly cheaper to buy or own vs. Wyndham/WorldMark, and in my opinion the locations are strictly less desirable. Others will see this differently.

 

[crisi]

I'm an every other year person, and it worked for years - when I wanted to go to WDW every other year. Now we are in a spot where I don't want to go to WDW every other year. We like HHI, and go in February when its easy to get a reservation. We went to Aulani last year - and I really didn't like it. I'm not a huge Hawaii fan to start with, and as someone else said, its my least favorite island. But the resort was also....not what I want in Hawaii. There are cheaper ways to go to HHI.

I think its true that your parents are looking to tie you down for a vacation - but honestly, that's a big ask, and a bigger ask once you have kids and want to start doing things as a nuclear family unit from time to time....and as your parents age and its harder for them to keep up with teenagers. So you decide you want to do Disney, but they won't keep up with kids. Or you decide that you've done too much Disney (and you aren't Disney people - even Disney people can get burned out on Disney) and decide to do something else.

I think another timeshare might be worth looking into, but I honestly think there is some long term thinking you and your parents need to do about what your future looks like in terms of vacation time, family time, etc. and what everyone's expectations are. Are you willing to give up precious vacation time every year? Will your inlaws expect the same if you start this plan with your parents? How about when you start using vacation days for travelling basketball with the kids and don't have enough days. Or when your future kids are so involved in activities and school that taking a family vacation is a logistical nightmare (mine are young adults - we've had a hard time taking a family vacation since middle school - we have the first one in nearly a decade scheduled for next May)

 

[Ozznato]

One thing to note: every-other-year is probably the minimum that makes sense for using a DVC ownership. Every third year is theoretically possible, but it is much harder to manage without stranding points.

Could you assist with helping this make sense? I've gotten this feeling from posts but in my head the logic works out, but maybe I'm being too naive about room availability.

Let's say they have 100 points at Riv (direct), and use '23, '24, and '25 as an example. They do not travel in '23, and bank the points to '24. They've got 200 points in '24, and borrow 29 points from '25 to pay for 229 at RIV for a week stay for 4 in a Studio and Tower Studio to stay over the summer in '24. This leaves them with 71 points in '25, which they can use for a few nights stay at Vero, or for an off-season stay in HHI. Cycle starts again in '26, '27, '28 (I know that point increases will make this more difficult, but I'm trying to get the concepts down). Is this right (theoretically)? What are the flaws in this line of thinking?

 

[crisi]

Oh, we own BWV and bought 20 years ago. I don't care if it expires in 2042, I'll likely sell it in the next few years or rent the points out every year for extra pocket cash - we bought so long ago that anything I make other than the dues costs is profit (and at this point, quite a bit of profit). But I'm in my 50s and my kids are young adults who aren't huge Disney people - and aren't going to be able to afford Disney anyway. Which is the other problem. When we bought, Disney wasn't affordable for a lot of people, but it was doable for us. Over the years, its become more and more of a financial burden to go to Disney. I don't vacation for financial burden....I want my vacations to be good values where I get a great experience for the price. And our vacations aren't cheap (the 2023 family vacation is $30k and involves the family on an African safari) - but Disney has stopped being a good value for us.

 

[Brian Noble]

This leaves them with 71 points in '25, which they can use for a few nights stay at Vero, or for an off-season stay in HHI.

I don't think of this as "every third year," because you are taking more than one DVC trip every three years.

 

[RoseGold]

I've talked to three resale brokers and a private sale on Facebook. I'd use any of them, as long as the title company was Mason. The title company does the real work.

From your point of view, I don't see how 100 points matters vs 200 points. That's their decision. They should be able to use their points however they want, as long as they structure the buy correctly with actual legal advice and understand you aren't committing to this every year.

Your parents want RIV, so they should buy RIV. If you want to pitch resale, I actually think there's an argument for BW here, and that's not something I say often. Much cheaper buy in, great legacy chart, good room mix for both couple trips and extended family trips. The grand villas are a real treat with the grand OMG once in a lifetime feel they seem to be looking for, and they are impossible to book without BW points. The chart does the work for BW. It's staggering compared to RIV. And IMO, the value won't sink in another decade if they change their mind want to sell it. Really, IMO any DVC resale isn't a huge commitment and can be sold without losing your shirt. Downside is no RIV, so maybe not even on the table for them. Also, BW is looking pretty worn and dated, as are many DVC properties. They saw RIV, but they aren't all looking that shiny and new right now. Most of these are older hotels and it shows.

And DVC has significant downside in general I assume you will investigate. No housekeeping, incredibly strict booking/cancelation rules, poor views and service, the website is a joke, I can keep going.

 

[havoc315]

For owners on this thread, how does everyone view their deed? If you're in a 2042, do you wish it ran till 2060? If you're a 2060, do you wish it ran until 2042?

There would be no reason to wish a DVC would expire sooner -- If you don't want to keep your 2060 contract past 2042, then you can likely sell it in 2042 for tens of thousands of dollars.

DVC "value" is realized either by:
1 -- Re-selling your contract after 20 years, thereby getting a refund of much of the money you put into it. The effect -- You got 20 years of really cheap vacations. OR
2 -- Keeping your contract for a very long time, 35-50 years... spreading the cost out so far, again means you got 35-50 years of cheap vacations.

You can find the math in other threads -- But it's very hard to financially justify purchasing a 2042 contract now. With only 19 more years left to use that contract, and with 0 value remaining at the end of 19 years, it really doesn't save much money (if any) compared to simply renting points, buying cash rooms.
The rationale for still buying 2042 contracts often comes down to having more certainty and control versus renting points. But in terms of pure $$ value, buying a 2042 contract won't necessarily save you any money compared to just renting points. (Pay $150 per point, plus 19 years of dues, plus closing costs, etc.. then you are paying $300 per point, or $16 per point, per year. Add in the time-cost of money, it's more like $18-$22 per point, per year. Which is very similar to point rental rates.)

 

[limace]

Again, I’d go ask this question in the TUg forums. They are the disboards of timeshare sales and will give you and your parents a much broader perspective-folks here will lean typically to DVC because it’s what most of us are familiar with but it’s a very small part of the timeshare world and I still think may not be the best fit for your folks’ desires.

 

[CarolynFH]

I too will recommend spending some time on TUG - in addition to forums specific to various TS systems and to buying and exchanging, they have one that's geared toward those who are truly learning about TS in general: https://tugbbs.com/forums/forums/new-to-timesharing-start-here.17/.

I also wanted to add that my parents were big into TS for 20+ years. They owned several Marriotts (before Marriott started its point program) as well as some properties in Hawaii that are now managed by Wyndham, and we were able to travel with them quite a lot. I agree with Brian above that Marriott would be my first choice if I were buying now - the resorts are very, very nice and are located in wonderful places. There are even 3 of them right across I-4 from WDW, a quick and easy drive from the Disney parks. If your parents want family trips, Marriott would offer a lot more than DVC can.

 

[havoc315]

Could you assist with helping this make sense? I've gotten this feeling from posts but in my head the logic works out, but maybe I'm being too naive about room availability.

Let's say they have 100 points at Riv (direct), and use '23, '24, and '25 as an example. They do not travel in '23, and bank the points to '24. They've got 200 points in '24, and borrow 29 points from '25 to pay for 229 at RIV for a week stay for 4 in a Studio and Tower Studio to stay over the summer in '24. This leaves them with 71 points in '25, which they can use for a few nights stay at Vero, or for an off-season stay in HHI. Cycle starts again in '26, '27, '28 (I know that point increases will make this more difficult, but I'm trying to get the concepts down). Is this right (theoretically)? What are the flaws in this line of thinking?

That's all correct... But what if they can't use EXACTLY 71 points in '25? Or they want to skip '25? They can bank those points into '26... but not into the big '27 trip.
So if your goal is a big trip in 24, followed by a big trip in '27, followed by a big trip in '30... it's hard to get the points to perfectly align.

Stranding excess points is always an issue, but a much bigger issue if using points only once every 3 years.

 

[Ozznato]

That's all correct... But what if they can't use EXACTLY 71 points in '25? Or they want to skip '25? They can bank those points into '26... but not into the big '27 trip.
So if your goal is a big trip in 24, followed by a big trip in '27, followed by a big trip in '30... it's hard to get the points to perfectly align.

Stranding excess points is always an issue, but a much bigger issue if using points only once every 3 years.

Awesome this was helpful please keep poking holes in the knowledge. I kept looking at it like "eh they've got 71 points they'll be able to use most of that at Vero maybe a few leftover, who cares" but leftover points is a crime! I didn't really appreciate that point until this post.

As to your scenario, they could bank into '26, and 26 could pull from 27, but then that's a two year timeline (which poses its own challenges as highlighted elsewhere). This is all very, very helpful.

I've been thinking that MVC is probably where I am going to direct them as an alternative depending on what they decide.

 

[Ozznato]

Awesome this was helpful please keep poking holes in the knowledge. I kept looking at it like "eh they've got 71 points they'll be able to use most of that at Vero maybe a few leftover, who cares" but leftover points is a crime! I didn't really appreciate that point until this post.

As to your scenario, they could bank into '26, and 26 could pull from 27, but then that's a two year timeline (which poses its own challenges as highlighted elsewhere). This is all very, very helpful.

I've been thinking that MVC is probably where I am going to direct them as an alternative depending on what they decide.

Although I will say that the maintenance fees/costs for Marriott seem preposterous when you've been looking at the DVC pricing!

 

[CarolynFH]

Although I will say that the maintenance fees/costs for Marriott seem preposterous when you've been looking at the DVC pricing!

You mean preposterously low for Marriott, right? DVC has some of the highest maintenance fees among points-based TS.

Here's a chart from TUG that might be a little helpful. https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html

 

[anonymousegirl]

For an every 3 years trip, your parents should just rent points. Then they can stay at RIV without the huge capital outlay, the maintenance dues, etc. Your wife will be happier too without the yearly Disney trip.

 

[Brian Noble]

You mean preposterously low for Marriott, right? DVC has some of the highest maintenance fees among points-based TS.

To put some numbers on this:

In Marriott's pure trust product, '22 MFs are about 62.8 cents per point. A 2BR oceanfront at Barony Beach Club on Hilton Head in peak summer is 5,400 points. That makes a total fees cost of just about $3,400. A 2BR at DVC's HHI in peak summer is 337 points. Dues at HHI are $10.07. The total cost? Just about $3,400. (Marriott point charts are here.)

Buying those Marriott points, on the resale market, would cost you something around $6.50/pt total. (Fidelity is listing Marriott points at about $3.50, plus Marriott's $3 junk fee). So, the 5,400 points cost about $36,000. Buying those DVC points, on the resale market, would cost about $80/pt, or $27,000. That's a real difference, but the HHI points are less versatile.

You can probably get HHI at seven months if you are diligent, which would let you spend a little less using points with cheaper dues. If you used RIV points for it, the dues are $8.38, for a total cost of $2,800. But you'd have to buy RIV points from the developer to use them at HHI--much much more expensive. Maybe a better choice is SSR. Those points have dues of $7.33, for a total cost of about $2,500 for the week. But you'd have to pay about $120 or so for them, for a bit more than $40K.

But the DVC location is much less desirable than the Marriott. The Marriott resort is oceanfront. The DVC resort is on the interior of the island. It's on Broad Creek, but it's not the beach. If you wanted one of the "lesser" rooms at Barony (as in: still an easy walk from the beach but a garden view), it would only be 3,725 points, or about $2,400 in dues and a purchase price of just over $24,000--cheaper dues than using SSR points at HHI, and a cheaper buy-in than buying Hilton Head directly. And, it's still a better location.

If you want a more comparable location, consider Marriott Sunset Pointe. It's just down Broad Creek from Disney's resort. Peak-summer point values for a 2BR there are much lower: 1,400 points. In the pure trust product, that means annual fees are only $900. You can buy those points for less than $10,000.

Edited to add: Looking at these makes me wonder why I haven't bought Marriott. I don't need another timeshare. I don't need another timeshare. I don't need...

 

[sethschroeder]

Given everything above, one of the things that I (and they) find most intriguing is the non-WDW properties. While I do not see us going to WDW every year, I can certainly see a 4-year rotation of WDW, Aluani, Vero Beach, and Hilton Head making sense. The Hilton Head property is, in particular, interesting to me as my wife and I recently moved to North Carolina, and would be able to drive to the property for weekend getaways.

I know others feel differently but I would NEVER buy DVC to go to Aulani, Vero, or Hilton Head. There are way to many other places to go that are of similar or better quality, similar or better locations, and similar or less expensive.

Now you could make it work sure but be prepared for places like AUL, VB, HH to be booked during the popular times where you can not get 1 room let alone 2 rooms for those resorts.

The only thing that makes sense for me is if you are doing WDW (possibly DL) on at least every other year basis.

 

[sethschroeder]

You mean preposterously low for Marriott, right? DVC has some of the highest maintenance fees among points-based TS.

Here's a chart from TUG that might be a little helpful. https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html

Thing is compare the typical costs for where those resorts are. They are not approaching the cash price for WDW. So while DVC will be more it should be more as its in a completely different realm of product.