POT (Proof of Time) Race Equivalency Cutoff Confirmed Times

As much as I'd like to give you a good idea, I'm not sure I have enough information to say whether it's possible. Doing a 5k at HM Tempo (about 28.5 min in your case) is a mildly difficult workout, but pales in comparison to 45-60 min of continuous HM effort. Although a 2:07:48 is 9:45 pace not 9:30s. Someone aiming for a 2:07:48 HM Tempo (9:44 pace) would do about 15k racing at 9:30s. I'd say 5k of just slower than LT (9:23) and right around 15k pace is right in the area of a good tough training run. So while you were slowing yourself down during the training run itself, like you said, it doesn't really paint a complete picture. I would advise though that in the future you don't try and do a test like this any closer than 10-14 days out from the event. Little is gained physically from the effort, and you may be hampered by the recovery. As I like to say, "Save it for Race Day!"

In a more general sense, these are the things I think about when coming up with race day goal pace:

First, what is my motivation for this race? Is this an all or nothing proposition? For instance, in your case it appears like you're approaching the race as a 2:07:48-ish or bust. If you get 2:07:47, then success. If you get 2:08:00, then failure. If this is the mindset entering the race, then you have your goal pace in mind regardless of whether it meets the standards of actually being accomplishable. You go at that pace and hold on for dear life throughout it on the hope you can maintain it. But if for instance the approach is, "I want to do my best, whether that's a 2:07 or a 2:09. A 2:09 would still be a PR over my 2:11." Then that's when you use other information to help set goal race day pacing. How much risk am I willing to incur? The faster the goal relative to my fitness, the higher the risk. Am I ok with a 10% chance of 2:07 and 90% chance of 2:15 vs a 30% chance of 2:09 and 70% chance of 2:12 (made up example)?

Secondly, I evaluate the race day weather and course. The further away from ideal that the weather is going to be, the less likely I am to hit optimal fitness performance. I can still do my "best" on that day under those particular circumstances, but it may pale in comparison to my best on a better weather day. So for me, if the T+D (Temp+Dew) is under 100, then I'm good for a max effort. If the T+D is between 100-120, I'm ok, but may not reach max potential. If the T+D is over 130, then I know I very likely will not be able to reach max potential. So be realistic with the effects of weather (be it T+D, wind, solar radiation, etc.) and its effect on your racing ability. The course matters too. Because you could do a time trial on a perfectly flat and beautifully cold crisp morning, but then race day is up the side of a mountain on a crazy hot day, and whatever the time trial said is going to be less relevant. I like to use Grade Adjusted Pacing (found on Strava or Garmin Connect) for planning out how each mile's pace will be affected by the change in elevation. So let's say you were aiming for a 9:30 pace on an out and back course. The first half is all uphill and the second half is all downhill. If you attempted to run 9:30s as an even split, then your effort in the first half (uphill) is likely going to feel much much harder than 9:30s. As the race wears on, the HM Tempo pace, may feel more like 10k effort. Despite having a downhill second half, you're likely not to make up the difference based on the hole you dug yourself. So basing pacing off of each individual miles change rather than an even split approach can be useful depending on the course design. The elevation is probably less relevant a consideration in FL though.

Lastly, once I've decided on my motivation and evaluated the course/weather is when I assess where my current fitness is. Have I done anything in training or racing in the last few months to suggest my goal time is reasonable? You're aiming for a 2:07:48. Can you/have you run a mile in 8:17, 5k in 27:47 (8:47), or 10k in 57:44 (9:17)? I'm not saying go try this out, but do you have reason to believe you could achieve these times? The more confident your answer, the more likely a 2:07:48 is within your wheel house. It's important to remember that when you have a specific goal time to allow some watch GPS buffer. You've been training by the GPS watch. When you run 3 miles on your watch you did it in 9:30s pace. But being on the race course is different. You're unlikely to run the tangents perfectly. So you're unlikely to run 13.11 miles per your watch on a perfectly measured course. I prefer to look at old GPS watch data from runners in that same race in prior years. Did most do 13.15 miles, or 13.3 miles, or somewhere in between? I use that to set what I guesstimate to be my final watch GPS distance and then set my very specific pace goal to it. For instance, a 2:07:48 at 13.11 miles is 9:45 pace, but at 13.3 miles is 9:37 pace, and 13.5 miles is 9:28 pace. So having a good idea for what type of buffer you'll need based on watch GPS is important if that's going to be your main focus when making in-race pacing decisions.

Regardless of what you choose, my number one advice when it comes to racing is to treat the race as a victory lap for what you've done and not an assessment. Keep your motivation high. I'm a big believer in the Psychobiological Model of Endurance which boils down to motivation influences our perception of effort. If we lose motivation, a task may not be any physically more difficult than it was when motivation was high. Yet the perception of the effort of the task will increase thereby making it seem harder. Stay highly motivated and you can maintain a similar level of perception of effort.
So close, yet so far. I needed 2:07:48 and I finished at 2:08:52. On the bright side, my last HM was 2:11:32. The bridge over the Intracoastal in Palm Beach killed me. I was on pace to finish at 2:03 and the damn bridge/hill wiped that out.
 

Thank you, but I feel like Baymax looking at my time.

There are no positives down the road this mindset leads to. There will always be someone faster and someone slower than you are. You set a new PR by around two minutes, IIRC. You also did that on the fly without a targeted training cycle driving the improvement. Take the win.
 
There are no positives down the road this mindset leads to. There will always be someone faster and someone slower than you are. You set a new PR by around two minutes, IIRC. You also did that on the fly without a targeted training cycle driving the improvement. Take the win.
Thank you. It was a momentary self pity, but I’m over it now.
 
Well, crap. This just made me realize my math for what I needed in a 10 miler next weekend is wrong. 1:43 already seemed like a slightly too high goal but 1:37 seems damn near impossible for me right now. Guess I’ll just set my sights on training for a PR for the HM I’m doing in September.
 
Well, crap. This just made me realize my math for what I needed in a 10 miler next weekend is wrong. 1:43 already seemed like a slightly too high goal but 1:37 seems damn near impossible for me right now. Guess I’ll just set my sights on training for a PR for the HM I’m doing in September.
Are you doing a solo HM or a M/Goofy/Dopey? If HM solo you’d need about 1:42. If M/Goofy/Dopey would would need about a 1:35.
 
Are you doing a solo HM or a M/Goofy/Dopey? If HM solo you’d need about 1:42. If M/Goofy/Dopey would would need about a 1:35.

I’m doing Dopey. 1:35 would be doable if I was actually in a good spot with my fitness right now but my training for TOT was… barely a thing. I’ve been consistent since I got back from it but still haven’t built my speed back up to try for it next weekend. At least, I don’t think so. It is a fairly flat (net downhill) and fast course though (Broad Street Run) so maybe I’ll surprise myself on race day.
 
I’m doing Dopey. 1:35 would be doable if I was actually in a good spot with my fitness right now but my training for TOT was… barely a thing. I’ve been consistent since I got back from it but still haven’t built my speed back up to try for it next weekend. At least, I don’t think so. It is a fairly flat (net downhill) and fast course though (Broad Street Run) so maybe I’ll surprise myself on race day.
I'm doing Broad Street next weekend too and I can't wait! I moved from Philly to NYC two years ago and get to run past my old apartment off Broad! I've heard it's pretty flat, so I'm hoping for a PR too (<1:30), though I'm doing a half in Brooklyn this weekend, so we'll see how it goes
 
I'm doing Broad Street next weekend too and I can't wait! I moved from Philly to NYC two years ago and get to run past my old apartment off Broad! I've heard it's pretty flat, so I'm hoping for a PR too (<1:30), though I'm doing a half in Brooklyn this weekend, so we'll see how it goes

Is it your first?! Broad Street is the best. It’s been a while since I ran it but it’s always been one of my favorites!!
 
I’m doing Dopey. 1:35 would be doable if I was actually in a good spot with my fitness right now but my training for TOT was… barely a thing. I’ve been consistent since I got back from it but still haven’t built my speed back up to try for it next weekend. At least, I don’t think so. It is a fairly flat (net downhill) and fast course though (Broad Street Run) so maybe I’ll surprise myself on race day.
I will be there as well. It's my first one. I am not anywhere near being fast enough yet for a Dopey PoT but hope to get a nice PR. I only have 2 other 10 milers on the book and both had horrible weather conditions. Hoping the weather is mild enough and it will just depend on how my legs are feeling next weekend :)
 
Hi everyone,

I would love advice from the rD experts on Proof of Time for the upcoming January 2023 races. I am signed up for the half marathon (only) and I submitted a PoT from a 10k I ran a couple of weeks ago with a 58:06 time (9:21 min per mile) with my registration. I did run the Vero Beach half marathon in January of 2022 (with a time of 2:13, 10:11 min per mile pace) but the 10k seemed like a faster time to submit. Would this submission put me in the S2 or S3 category (or is there no way to know this from now?).

Both races were at decent tempo runs for me so I am actually hoping to improve my time in the coming months--I will be running the Bayshore Half in May (Traverse City, MI) and a few other races over the summer. I am hoping to be able to run 1:59:59 half before the PoT window closes. Does anyone know what an equivalent 10k time would be? I would love any advice from those of you who are more familiar with the Disney races (I ran the January half in 2015 and the Princess Half in 2020 but things change a bit over time!).

With much gratitude. 💜

I'll answer your question over here in the POT thread.

This is the current version I'm using for the breakdown of POTs to starting groups:

1650637624834.png

Your question relates to a HM solo event, so you'll want to look at the bottom table.

-A 58:06 10k time would likely be in s2 (or in the 2:00-2:15 bucket because it falls between 54:46-1:01:22).
-A 2:13 HM time would also likely be in s2 (or in the 2:00-2:15 bucket).
-A 1:59:59 HM time would be in s1 because it is sub-2.

If you want a 10k time to be in s1 (under 2hr HM), then you're aiming for about 54:45.

As always, the above information is not perfect, but historical data shows it is reasonably good.

ETA - Using the calculation of T2=T1x(D2/D1)^1.055 your 10k time of 58:06 is equivalent to a 2:07:44 HM.
 
I'll answer your question over here in the POT thread.

This is the current version I'm using for the breakdown of POTs to starting groups:

View attachment 664172

Your question relates to a HM solo event, so you'll want to look at the bottom table.

-A 58:06 10k time would likely be in s2 (or in the 2:00-2:15 bucket because it falls between 54:46-1:01:22).
-A 2:13 HM time would also likely be in s2 (or in the 2:00-2:15 bucket).
-A 1:59:59 HM time would be in s1 because it is sub-2.

If you want a 10k time to be in s1 (under 2hr HM), then you're aiming for about 54:45.

As always, the above information is not perfect, but historical data shows it is reasonably good.

ETA - Using the calculation of T2=T1x(D2/D1)^1.055 your 10k time of 58:06 is equivalent to a 2:07:44 HM.
Wow, thank you so much-this data is exactly what I was trying to figure out. So I will have to work on my 54 10k goal!! Not easy to shave off those 4 pesky minutes but I will certainly try. Thank you so much @DopeyBadger --you ROCK!!
 
Wow, thank you so much-this data is exactly what I was trying to figure out. So I will have to work on my 54 10k goal!! Not easy to shave off those 4 pesky minutes but I will certainly try. Thank you so much @DopeyBadger --you ROCK!!

My go to recommendation for improvement on 10k time is the Jack Daniels 3rd Edition Book "Running Formula"'s 5k/10k plans (link). I used one back in 2017, after having about 7000 miles of career running mileage, and improved my 5k time by 7.5% (21:02 down to 19:29). If you saw a similar improvement, it would take your 58:06 time down to 53:49 in one training cycle. Food for thought.
 
My go to recommendation for improvement on 10k time is the Jack Daniels 3rd Edition Book "Running Formula"'s 5k/10k plans (link). I used one back in 2017, after having about 7000 miles of career running mileage, and improved my 5k time by 7.5% (21:02 down to 19:29). If you saw a similar improvement, it would take your 58:06 time down to 53:49 in one training cycle. Food for thought.
OMG yassssss....buying book now. THANK YOU!!!!!
 
OMG yassssss....buying book now. THANK YOU!!!!!

Admittedly, it's not an easy to follow book. It can be a lot of math and isn't as simple as say a Higdon plan which just straight tells you what to do everyday. But if you read the Daniels book cover to cover, you should have the basic premises down to understand how to construct your own training plan based on the plans late in the book. If things get bogged down, just reach out and I can try and help. I'm well versed in his language.
 
My go to recommendation for improvement on 10k time is the Jack Daniels 3rd Edition Book "Running Formula"'s 5k/10k plans (link). I used one back in 2017, after having about 7000 miles of career running mileage, and improved my 5k time by 7.5% (21:02 down to 19:29). If you saw a similar improvement, it would take your 58:06 time down to 53:49 in one training cycle. Food for thought.
So I literally just bought the book and it will be here on Sunday with amazon prime. 🤣. I really appreciate this @DopeyBadger and yes, I will reach out if needed. I can't thank you enough!!
 
I'm doing Broad Street next weekend too and I can't wait! I moved from Philly to NYC two years ago and get to run past my old apartment off Broad! I've heard it's pretty flat, so I'm hoping for a PR too (<1:30), though I'm doing a half in Brooklyn this weekend, so we'll see how it goes
Good luck and have fun on Sunday! Volunteering at Expo tomorrow afternoon and seems like it's going to be a blast. Weather looks perfect as well.
 












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