POT (Proof of Time) Race Equivalency Cutoff Confirmed Times

[Tall Todd]

Think Disney relaxes the POT for Princess like they did Marathon? Looking for that 2:30 Half again...

 

[fatmanatee]

Think Disney relaxes the POT for Princess like they did Marathon? Looking for that 2:30 Half again...

2:15, but yes.

 

[Tall Todd]

2:15, but yes.

It was 2 hours for the 2022 half. 2023 is 2:15. Years past it was 2:30... Or am I remembering wrong?

 

[GollyGadget]

Think Disney relaxes the POT for Princess like they did Marathon? Looking for that 2:30 Half again...

Who knows what rD has up their sleeve but I would guess that they stick to the 2:15 cutoff for princess.

They might and probably will change it after they see how W&D goes with the new cutoffs but that will be after the princess registration.

 

[fatmanatee]

It was 2 hours for the 2022 half. 2023 is 2:15. Years past it was 2:30... Or am I remembering wrong?

I thought you were referring to the 2023 change. I'd guess they wait to see how it works out for the next few race weekends with a 2:15 cutoff and then reassess.

 

[kps7795]

My go to recommendation for improvement on 10k time is the Jack Daniels 3rd Edition Book "Running Formula"'s 5k/10k plans (link). I used one back in 2017, after having about 7000 miles of career running mileage, and improved my 5k time by 7.5% (21:02 down to 19:29). If you saw a similar improvement, it would take your 58:06 time down to 53:49 in one training cycle. Food for thought.

Daniels vs Hanson’s? They both seem to utilize similar training philosophies. Having used both plans, how would you say that they compare?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Daniels vs Hanson’s? They both seem to utilize similar training philosophies. Having used both plans, how would you say that they compare?

For the purpose of the comparison, I'll assume you're asking about marathon training plans. Because Daniels has plans from the 800m to the marathon, where Hanson's plans are more narrow in their offerings (although I just looked and they have branched out more).

They're more similar than they are different. They both adhere to the idea of limiting your long run based on duration (which I think is probably one of the most important marathon training plan concepts). Alongside that is that they limit how much the long run constitutes the total weekly mileage. The pace schemes are similar, but in my fitness area the Hanson's long run pace tends to be about 20-30 sec/mile faster. Whereas the Hanson's easy paces are much slower than the Daniel's easy pace range.

Depending on the variation of which Hansons and Daniels you are comparing, a typical difference would be the number of hard workouts per week. Hanson has three hard per week, and Daniels has two hard per week. Hanson likes to use 5k pace, then transition into a phase of marathon specificity (M Tempo and M Strength intervals (which is M Tempo - 10 sec). Whereas, Daniels likes to focus on paces faster than 5k, and paces faster than Hanson's M Strength (of primary use for Daniels is Lactate Threshold pace). They both include M Tempo workouts. Hanson's does it in a crescendo manner of consistently held M Tempo from 6 miles up to 10 miles (not including WU/CD). Depending on the Daniels plan, you might be doing as much as 14-15 miles of M Tempo in a single run (sometimes in intervals (like 8+5) and sometimes in a consistent workout (14 miles straight). So Hanson's hard workouts are more frequent, but Daniels' hard workouts are arguably harder. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but I would personally consider the Daniels' marathon training plans harder than the Hanson's plan. So if you haven't tried either, then I'd try Hanson first.

One caveat to all of this. I have personally found contradictions between the information in the early chapters of the Daniels' book and the marathon training plans he offers as examples. Case in point, his 56-70 mile marathon training plan that has a 60 min Easy + 4 x 3 miles at T w/ 3 min RI + 1 mile Easy workout (page 236 of the 3rd edition). This is 12 miles of Threshold work in total in a 70 mile peak * 80% mileage week (56 miles). On page 48 of the 3rd edition, it talks about how Threshold pace should make up no more than 10% of weekly mileage. So a 12 mile T, should technically be in a 120 mile week minimally. I believe the goal here is a massively overload workout 3 weeks out from the marathon race itself. But 12 miles of Threshold pace is a massive undertaking for almost anyone. So it makes me gun-shy to even attempt such a workout because it's so outside the bounds he himself set earlier in the book.

 

[prncssjas]

For the purpose of the comparison, I'll assume you're asking about marathon training plans. Because Daniels has plans from the 800m to the marathon, where Hanson's plans are more narrow in their offerings (although I just looked and they have branched out more).

They're more similar than they are different. They both adhere to the idea of limiting your long run based on duration (which I think is probably one of the most important marathon training plan concepts). Alongside that is that they limit how much the long run constitutes the total weekly mileage. The pace schemes are similar, but in my fitness area the Hanson's long run pace tends to be about 20-30 sec/mile faster. Whereas the Hanson's easy paces are much slower than the Daniel's easy pace range.

Depending on the variation of which Hansons and Daniels you are comparing, a typical difference would be the number of hard workouts per week. Hanson has three hard per week, and Daniels has two hard per week. Hanson likes to use 5k pace, then transition into a phase of marathon specificity (M Tempo and M Strength intervals (which is M Tempo - 10 sec). Whereas, Daniels likes to focus on paces faster than 5k, and paces faster than Hanson's M Strength (of primary use for Daniels is Lactate Threshold pace). They both include M Tempo workouts. Hanson's does it in a crescendo manner of consistently held M Tempo from 6 miles up to 10 miles (not including WU/CD). Depending on the Daniels plan, you might be doing as much as 14-15 miles of M Tempo in a single run (sometimes in intervals (like 8+5) and sometimes in a consistent workout (14 miles straight). So Hanson's hard workouts are more frequent, but Daniels' hard workouts are arguably harder. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but I would personally consider the Daniels' marathon training plans harder than the Hanson's plan. So if you haven't tried either, then I'd try Hanson first.

One caveat to all of this. I have personally found contradictions between the information in the early chapters of the Daniels' book and the marathon training plans he offers as examples. Case in point, his 56-70 mile marathon training plan that has a 60 min Easy + 4 x 3 miles at T w/ 3 min RI + 1 mile Easy workout (page 236 of the 3rd edition). This is 12 miles of Threshold work in total in a 70 mile peak * 80% mileage week (56 miles). On page 48 of the 3rd edition, it talks about how Threshold pace should make up no more than 10% of weekly mileage. So a 12 mile T, should technically be in a 120 mile week minimally. I believe the goal here is a massively overload workout 3 weeks out from the marathon race itself. But 12 miles of Threshold pace is a massive undertaking for almost anyone. So it makes me gun-shy to even attempt such a workout because it's so outside the bounds he himself set earlier in the book.

I was just coming to find you @DopeyBadger ! I loved the Daniel's book (thank you for the recommendation)--I read the whole thing and wow, lots more math than I realized () but good stuff. I was trying hard not to get caught up in the half marathon chapter (as I am running the Bayshore Half Marathon in 3.5 weeks and really, it's way too late to make any gains with my time there, at least for now). I am going to see if I can't work through one training cycle for 10k improvement time. I am running the Detroit Half Marathon in October so if this goes as planned, sub 2 hour half, I am coming for you!! Wish me luck and thanks again.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Alright, I didn't get a completely straight answer this time around, but I did get a good estimate/rounded POT cutoff. The values aren't terribly far off from where my calculations had previously placed them.



The pink values are the times runDisney had previously confirmed during the 2021-2022 racing season as the race equivalents of a 4:00 M and 2:00 HM. I have no reason to believe these values will deviate much from our previous confirmation. The orange values were the new cutoffs provided to me as estimates/rounded. They are all reasonably close to what I had calculated prior based on the previous estimated Riegel R values. The biggest difference was the 4:52 marathon equivalent to the 2:15 HM which I had a 4:54 (so still close).

These were the calculated Riegel Rs from the most recent data.



McMillan race equivalency values for comparison.

 

[Disneyhanna]

Thanks for the update, looks like I should try to get a new POT this summer, my 1:35:05 10 mile may not cut it for Dopey now I did speed work to get there and am not planning on any speed work in prep for my October marathon, so I may need to rethink my training a bit. But I run pretty poorly in the heat, so I'm not sure if a summer HM POT is in the cards for me...this will be a test of motivation, I think!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks for the update, looks like I should try to get a new POT this summer, my 1:35:05 10 mile may not cut it for Dopey now I did speed work to get there and am not planning on any speed work in prep for my October marathon, so I may need to rethink my training a bit. But I run pretty poorly in the heat, so I'm not sure if a summer HM POT is in the cards for me...this will be a test of motivation, I think!

That’s so close and between my earlier value and their “estimated/rounded” value they gave me. Consider emailing trackshack directly to remove all doubt. They’ll let you know where you stand in about 2 days time. Disneysports@trackshack.com. They may end up giving you a wish-washy answer though.

 

[Disneyhanna]

That’s so close and between my earlier value and their “estimated/rounded” value they gave me. Consider emailing trackshack directly to remove all doubt. They’ll let you know where you stand in about 2 days time. Disneysports@trackshack.com. They may end up giving you a wish-washy answer though.

Thanks, I will try doing that! I'll report back if I get a solid answer!

 

[Disneyhanna]

Thanks, I will try doing that! I'll report back if I get a solid answer!

This is what I heard back:

Thanks for reaching out. Based on the time you submitted, we can inform you that you 1:35:05 10 mile calculates to exactly 4:30 which is the maximum cut off before proof is not required. We wish you magical miles!

So, I THINK I should be okay based on this. May still consider a summer half if my training goes well as a backup. If only I knew the cutoff when I ran that race, I would have hauled it a bit more at the end

 

[DopeyBadger]

This is what I heard back:

Thanks for reaching out. Based on the time you submitted, we can inform you that you 1:35:05 10 mile calculates to exactly 4:30 which is the maximum cut off before proof is not required. We wish you magical miles!

So, I THINK I should be okay based on this. May still consider a summer half if my training goes well as a backup. If only I knew the cutoff when I ran that race, I would have hauled it a bit more at the end

If this were me, I'd feel relatively comfortable based on that response. It's not a 100% lock, but pretty good.

ETA - Just goes to show that grey area between their "estimated/rounded" time of 1:35:00 and my calculated time of 1:35:27 is pretty spot on.

 

[HangWithMerida]

Well, these updated numbers put my 2:08:02 HM literally right at the cutoff for Dopey POT. I have no options for getting a new one so I’m just going to cross my fingers and see what happens. But, it’s closer than the older estimates, which were about 20 secs of my time. It’s not worth an email to me, but makes me hopeful.

 

[kps7795]

Well, these updated numbers put my 2:08:02 HM literally right at the cutoff for Dopey POT. I have no options for getting a new one so I’m just going to cross my fingers and see what happens. But, it’s closer than the older estimates, which were about 20 secs of my time. It’s not worth an email to me, but makes me hopeful.

It’s always worth the email…as I tell my kids, you never get what you don’t ask for. Nonetheless, I had an almost identical POT so I sent the email and was basically told that my POT would qualify me for the next starting group after the cutoff.

 

[Pukvg]

View attachment 670058

Hi DopeyBadger, thanks for your efforts to create that table! I have a question about the elite corral for the half marathon. Is it true there is an elite corral? Some other people told me it only exists for the full marathon.

But if it is there do you know what is roughly needed to get in there?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Hi DopeyBadger, thanks for your efforts to create that table! I have a question about the elite corral for the half marathon. Is it true there is an elite corral? Some other people told me it only exists for the full marathon.

I'm 100% positive it exists for the marathon as I've seen the elite runners being led to the front of corral s1 in a special section between the wheelchair division and s1. I've also seen elite marathon runners at the front of corral s1 and not with the other elites.

I'm not 100% positive that the HM has an elite designation. Although my recollection from Princess 2022 was that I saw a group of women led to the front of corral s1 and they were very much elite. Although I don't remember seeing an elite designation on their bib. There was a woman who I pointed out pre-10k who had a challenge bib who ended up winning the race who was clearly elite and I don't believe she had an elite bib (but she was a challenge runner and not a solo runner). So I'm not 100% it exists, but my experience from the last Princess HM is that there was a group of women (I don't remember seeing any males being led out) that were clearly elite runners that were led from off stage to the front of s1. Many of those women were the top finishers in the race.

But if it is there do you know what is roughly needed to get in there?

In that past there has been no set time cutoff that I'm aware of. It seems like the elite designation goes to the first 20-25 bibs. So based on the top runners that are doing that particular weekend. From my viewing of the runner tracking information, not all bibs in the top 25 were assigned, and they're typically split between men and women. The top women at Princess were 1:20, 1:20, and 1:24 (the 1:24 was the elite 10k woman I saw).

I suggest if you've got a time in the low 1:20s to go ahead and reach out to runDIsney via email and ask them if you are eligible for elite status. If you do reach out, let us know what you hear back.

 

[SheHulk]

Apologies in advance if this was already solved int the MW 2023 thread, I didn't scan through it to find out, but were the cutoff times for corrals still the same as had been (well-) predicted in Billy's chart for last year? Trying to decide whether to really go for it in a 10-miler this year.

 

[Disneyhanna]

Apologies in advance if this was already solved int the MW 2023 thread, I didn't scan through it to find out, but were the cutoff times for corrals still the same as had been (well-) predicted in Billy's chart for last year? Trying to decide whether to really go for it in a 10-miler this year.

I made it into corral B with a 1:35:05 10-mile! Track shack did respond to my email many months ago and said it converted exactly to a 4:30 marathon and would be accepted, which ended up being true.