Politics: Meet the Dominionists (be afraid)

[What the Heck]

Kids can pray all they want in school - just not lead others in prayer.

Just to make sure, are you saying that the prayer should not be led by the school or by the children? If the former, I agree. If the latter, why do you believe this?

 

[WDWHound]

You have not answered the question as to how not being allowed to make a public show of praying on government property is restricting your right to practice your religion.

If our faith calls for us to pray, we pray. It doesn;t prevent, but it does restrict. Telling us when and where we can pray restricts that practice of our faith (restriction by time and location). Forcing others to take part woould also infringe on their rights though, so I seek a compromise.

I am actually not a big public prayer, but I don;t think that we should be told when we can and cant if we are not infinging on others by doing so.

 

[chobie]

Taking away the children's right to pray I don't believe is a good one. Could something like you suggest happen? Certainly. But it's already happening now for different reasons.

Examples of children having their right to pray taken away? Are there any stories about children being told they cannot pray silently before lunch or before a test?

 

[auntpolly]

Just to make sure, are you saying that the prayer should not be led by the school or by the children? If the former, I agree. If the latter, why do you believe this?

Actually I think the law is pretty clear about this and I agree with the law. Here's an example: Friends want to pray together at lunch, great. They stand up and invite the whole lunch room to pray with them - not cool.

A kid's right to pray has not been taken away. They just can't do it so as to involve kids who don't want to be involved. (at football games, graduation, assemblies, by a teacher in a classroom, etc)

 

[chobie]

If our faith calls for use to pray, we pray. Telling us when and where we can pray restricts (restriction by tie and location). Forcing others to take part woould also infringe on their rigths though, so I seek a compromise.

That is specious. Unless you have been summoned to court, no one is forced to be on government property. Certainly no one is forced to take a government job. Jesus may have prayed publicly but where does the bible say that people have to be ready to pray publicly at any moment or they are not doing as God commanded?

 

[wvrevy]

An organized group prayer would not be approriate. Three students praying for the health of a sick friend upon hearing the friend is in a hospital would be. One requires particapation, the other is a spopnatious act.

Which is why I would have a major problem with the first, and would have considerably less problem with the second. So long as it's not teachers "leading" the prayer, and so long as it's not an "organized" event, I have no problem with students practicing their religion in school. It's when it can be used as another thing to make kids feel likt outsiders that I have a problem with it, and your scenario doesn't do that.

The problem here is not prayer, its the promotion policy. And again, y9ou are talking about organized prayer.

No, actually, it would be a christian man choosing to help another christian by giving them a promotion over someone who has a different belief. The scenario is hardly farfetched, either. And yes, again, I am talking about organized prayer. If my boss wants to say a prayer before he eats his lunch every day, i couldn't care less. It's when his beliefs start impacting my life that I start having problems with it.

I would see no reason for a judge to pray in a courtroom, and it fails to meet my requirement of not forcing others to participate, so I would not be for this.

Tell it to Roy Moore But rather than openly praying, say that judge had some other cristian symbol decorating his bench. Would you feel comfortable that he could be impartial, particularly if part of the case involved religious beliefs (which could be anything from a lawsuit to a divorce hearing)? As someone who could find themselves in that position, let me say that I most certainly would not.

Sorry, but I cant agree. Jesus was anything but private about his faith. Now, I should be respectful and I should not hound or try to convert you, but I refuse to practice my faith only in private. Jesus calls us to do just the oposite and I will continue to live my faith puplicly, striving at all times to respect the rights and beleifs of others as I do so.

I added the emphasis on that last part to show why I do respect your beliefs and why I do not respect those of people like those in the article. As I've said before, I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs - be it by prayer or by whatever other method they choose - in public, so long as they are not doing so as a representative of the government. A judge or a public school teacher should be barred from leading a public prayer, because it implies that they and the power vested in them are endorsing a particular set of beliefs. Take the recent Schiavo case, for example. I have no problem at all with the groups that were there praying for her life (or whatever). They had every right to do so, and I would have objected strongly had the government tried to stop them from doing so. It's not public prayer I have a problem with, it's organized prayer that is apparently endorsed by a governmental institution.

 

[WDWHound]

Actually I think the law is pretty clear about this and I agree with the law. Here's an example: Friends want to pray together at lunch, great. They stand up and invite the whole lunch room to pray with them - not cool.

A kid's right to pray has not been taken away. They just can't do it so as to involve kids who don't want to be involved. (at football games, graduation, assemblies, by a teacher in a classroom, etc)

Yup. The idea is not to forbid prayer, but also to not force prayer on others.

 

[chadfromdallas]

Comparing nativity scenes to slavery. Quite a stretch.

Missed the point of that comment eh?

 

[WDWHound]

Which is why I would have a major problem with the first, and would have considerably less problem with the second. So long as it's not teachers "leading" the prayer, and so long as it's not an "organized" event, I have no problem with students practicing their religion in school. It's when it can be used as another thing to make kids feel likt outsiders that I have a problem with it, and your scenario doesn't do that.

No, actually, it would be a christian man choosing to help another christian by giving them a promotion over someone who has a different belief. The scenario is hardly farfetched, either. And yes, again, I am talking about organized prayer. If my boss wants to say a prayer before he eats his lunch every day, i couldn't care less. It's when his beliefs start impacting my life that I start having problems with it.

Tell it to Roy Moore But rather than openly praying, say that judge had some other cristian symbol decorating his bench. Would you feel comfortable that he could be impartial, particularly if part of the case involved religious beliefs (which could be anything from a lawsuit to a divorce hearing)? As someone who could find themselves in that position, let me say that I most certainly would not.

I added the emphasis on that last part to show why I do respect your beliefs and why I do not respect those of people like those in the article. As I've said before, I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs - be it by prayer or by whatever other method they choose - in public, so long as they are not doing so as a representative of the government. A judge or a public school teacher should be barred from leading a public prayer, because it implies that they and the power vested in them are endorsing a particular set of beliefs. Take the recent Schiavo case, for example. I have no problem at all with the groups that were there praying for her life (or whatever). They had every right to do so, and I would have objected strongly had the government tried to stop them from doing so. It's not public prayer I have a problem with, it's organized prayer that is apparently endorsed by a governmental institution.

Wow! I think we are reaching agreement here. I agree that a Christian man should not promote only fellow Christians. Thats what I was trying to say with when I mentioned the promotion policy. I also don't believe a Judge should pray in the course of his job becuase, as a government representative, he repesents all the people and no prayer can do that. There is no way he can pray approiately in that forum.

I have to run. Thanks to everyone for the great converstation. This has been an interesting thread.

 

[What the Heck]

Examples of children having their right to pray taken away? Are there any stories about children being told they cannot pray silently before lunch or before a test?

No, that takes my comment out of context. I was referring to children being bullied at schools, for whatever reason.

 

[dcentity2000]

We all have a right to pray. Countries where we don't are known by many unsavoury names, the least of which being "dictatorship" or "communist".

[/problem]



Rich::

 

[DisDuck]

WDW let me clarify as my 'vent' was defining public as government. If you wish to say grace before your meal in a restaurant I support your wish. If you wish to gather in a company cafeteria to say a prayer I support your wish. If you wish to park a bus on a public street and ask passerbyers if they wish to join you in prayer (coercing not allowed) I support your wish. What I do not support is prayer on government grounds or expressions via symbols on public grounds because someone will mis-interprete these actions to mean government support of that religion. To me a clear example is a government swearing in ceremony where a bible is used and a prayer said. Whenever I watch these the prayer leader has never been a Rabbi. Now I know that the person being sworn in might not be Jewish but the audience present is more diverse so what to do. Personally, have nothing. As to the bible usage, there is an interesting TV ad in the NYC area for Mayor Bloomberg. It shows him being sworn in for the 1st term with a hand on a bible. Now of what denomination was that bible. It was certainly not a Torah nor did it look like the english translation book used by my synagogue. The Mayor is Jewish so I wonder what did he use?

 

[septbride2002]

Excuse me Mr. Duck. I know you respect my faith, as I respect yours, but please do not tell me I must live my faith by the standards of yours. You get angry when some Christians do that to you (and rightfully so), so please do not repeat their mistake.

Boy, the point of his post just few right over you head didn't it?

~Amanda

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Missed the point of that comment eh?

I understand it fine and I still disagree with it. See post #78, if you can pick yourself up off the floor.

 

[dcentity2000]

I understand it fine and I still disagree with it. See post #78, if you can pick yourself up off the floor.

Could you spell it out for me? It's late and my brain's not functioning



Rich::

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Could you spell it out for me? It's late and my brain's not functioning



Rich::

Although we can agree that not all traditions are good, traditions (or things long-standing in our culture) can be a valid reason for public display of religious symbols, such as nativity scenes.

Saying people used the "tradition argument" to try to keep slavery is not a fair comparison to me.

 

[dcentity2000]

Although we can agree that not all traditions are good, traditions (or things long-standing in our culture) can be a valid reason for public display of religious symbols, such as nativity scenes.

Saying people used the "tradition argument" to try to keep slavery is not a fair comparison to me.

'k, thankyou and sorry to bother you

And btw, I agree - tradition is not always bad or invalid at all



Rich::

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

So I missed out on a whole afternoon of debate . What's the verdict? Is it OK to pray on public property?

 

[Charade]

This is an inaccurate statement.

Then we're even.

 

[What the Heck]

But when the only voices I hear that claim to be christian are those of intolerance and hatred, then I will continue to doubt your assertion.

You do not have to be a Christian or a Republican to have a voice of intolerance and hatred, yet I don't see you denouncing those from the left.