Politics: Meet the Dominionists (be afraid)

Here is an excerpt from CLA refering to where our religious freedoms are being taken away.

America’s Peril

Unfortunately, when I think of America, I think also of the perils that we daily face in the modern agenda to ruin our nation’s spiritual and moral foundations and to squelch the voices of those who still proclaim America to be one nation under God. I think of Satan’s fierce attack on ministries, pastors, and fellow Christians who want to stand strong for God’s standards in America. I see the utter disdain that some in America, who pretend to stand for freedom for all, exhibit toward those who seek to stand strong for the Christian faith and continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord in this land. The hostility I refer to happens every day right here in America. We hear about the effects of this religious hostility in numerous daily telephone calls to our CLA office.

A man who works for a large Fortune 500 Company was told he could not meet with fellow Christians in his work place. Meanwhile, other groups, like the homosexuals, are allowed to use company resources to meet and promote their group’s agenda.
A Christian business owner who owns a printing company was sued by a witch for refusing to print advocacy materials about witchcraft.
A pastor who was invited to open a state Senate session in prayer and was asked to leave because he was going to end his prayer in Jesus’ name.
A Christian employee was ordered not to wear a Christian T-shirt while other employees were allowed to wear T-shirts with secular themes.
Countless Christian soul winners face hostility on America’s streets every day for simply handing out Gospel tracts.
A pastor was cited by government officials for holding a Bible study group in his own home.
Certain states do not want to allow Christianity to be taught in public schools even though Islam and other non-Christian religions are often taught as “cultural” subjects.
 
wvrevy said:
Yes, I do. Anybody using reason would be unable to support a president that failed as miserably as Bush did. You may not have voted for Kerry out of philosophical differences, but there is simply no way you could rationally support Bush. It's simply not possible.

Failed in Iraq (and arguably lied to get us there).
Failed in Afghanistan.
Failed to protect the country from terrorism in the first place.
Failed to grow the economy.
Failed to create jobs.
Failed to benefit anyone other than CEO's (middle income salaries are stagnant while CEO's went through the roof in the last 5 years)
Failed to protect the surplus, running up record deficits with no end in sight.

Failed...failed...failed...failed...failed.

So, you "rationally" support that ? :rotfl: And why was it that red staters who were considerably at less risk of attack than people in blue states all saying that "security" was the reason they voted for him, if not out of fear ?

Yes we had an attack of terrorism while GW Bush was president. And we have responded big-time. What did Clinton do again?
The economy is growing and job are being created. (I think you and others conveniently forget the impact 911 had on the economy and jobs.)
He did not fail in Afghanistan and Iraq. Did you forget the election, freedom, and democracy. :sunny:

What was Kerry's plan for security? Does anyone know? If it involved the UN or a bigger role for the UN - no wonder he lost. :sad2:
 
chobie said:
You're free to interpret the bible as you wish. The quote seems pretty clear to me.
And Jesus prayed in public, verbally, as did his disciples. If the verse you quote was intended as an absolute, why did they do this? Were they wrong in doing so?

You are also free to interpret the Bible anyway you want, but I caution you against pulling one verse as a standalone example. You need to understand context and you need to consider it inthe light of Jesus' other teachings and actions. For example, Jesus once prayed verbally and actually mentioned in his prayer that he was doing so specifically so that others could hear him (John 11:41) How does this fit with your strict interpretation of the verse you quoted?

If you read the entire chapter where the scripture you quoted comes from, you will find it is all about not making a show out of your religion and this quote fits well with that theme. There are many people, including many Christains, who see the pray in private command as an absolute, but given the context in which it appears and the many examples of public prayer found elsewhere in the Bible, I cant share this view. I see public prayer as being just fine if, and only if, it is done for the purpose of serving and worshipping God and not for puplic self-aggrandizement .
 
WDWHound said:
And Jesus prayed in public, verbally, as did his disciples. I the verse you quote was intendedas an absolute, why did they do this? Were they wrong in doing so?

You are also free to interpret the Bible anyway you want, but I caution you against pulling one verse as a standalone example. You need to understand context and you need to consider it inthe light of Jesus' other teachings and actions. For example, Jesus once prayed verbally and actually mentioned in his prayer that he was doing so specifically so that others could hear him (John 11:41) How does this fit with your strict interpretation of the verse you quoted?

If you read the entire chapter where the scripture you quoted comes from, you will find it is all about not making a show out of your religion and this quote fits well with that theme.


Is that the same chapter where Jesus tells people not to judge? Funny how that one always gets "reinterpreted" as well.
 

live4christp1 said:
Here is an excerpt from CLA refering to where our religious freedoms are being taken away.

America’s Peril

Unfortunately, when I think of America, I think also of the perils that we daily face in the modern agenda to ruin our nation’s spiritual and moral foundations and to squelch the voices of those who still proclaim America to be one nation under God. I think of Satan’s fierce attack on ministries, pastors, and fellow Christians who want to stand strong for God’s standards in America. I see the utter disdain that some in America, who pretend to stand for freedom for all, exhibit toward those who seek to stand strong for the Christian faith and continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord in this land. The hostility I refer to happens every day right here in America. We hear about the effects of this religious hostility in numerous daily telephone calls to our CLA office.

A man who works for a large Fortune 500 Company was told he could not meet with fellow Christians in his work place. Meanwhile, other groups, like the homosexuals, are allowed to use company resources to meet and promote their group’s agenda.
A Christian business owner who owns a printing company was sued by a witch for refusing to print advocacy materials about witchcraft.
A pastor who was invited to open a state Senate session in prayer and was asked to leave because he was going to end his prayer in Jesus’ name.
A Christian employee was ordered not to wear a Christian T-shirt while other employees were allowed to wear T-shirts with secular themes.
Countless Christian soul winners face hostility on America’s streets every day for simply handing out Gospel tracts.
A pastor was cited by government officials for holding a Bible study group in his own home.
Certain states do not want to allow Christianity to be taught in public schools even though Islam and other non-Christian religions are often taught as “cultural” subjects.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

*** are "secular themes"? And pray tell, what exactly is the "homosexual agenda". And what are the details on this pastor being cited fro holding a Bible study group?
 
live4christp1 said:
Here is an excerpt from CLA refering to where our religious freedoms are being taken away.

America’s Peril

Unfortunately, when I think of America, I think also of the perils that we daily face in the modern agenda to ruin our nation’s spiritual and moral foundations and to squelch the voices of those who still proclaim America to be one nation under God.

As discussed to the point of exhaustion. The original pledge of alliegence did not have the words "Under God" in it. Thefore it can not be considered a foundation of this country, when it fact it was written till almost 100 years after our founding fathers signed the Constitution.

I think of Satan’s fierce attack on ministries, pastors, and fellow Christians who want to stand strong for God’s standards in America. I see the utter disdain that some in America, who pretend to stand for freedom for all, exhibit toward those who seek to stand strong for the Christian faith and continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord in this land. The hostility I refer to happens every day right here in America. We hear about the effects of this religious hostility in numerous daily telephone calls to our CLA office.

Unfortunantly this land does not have a national religion. It was founded on the basis of freedom of religion for all. Therefore Jesus is not the Lord of this land. Jesus is our Lord, meaning mind, body, and soul of an individual. But the Christian Faith is not the foundation of the country, nor is it the ruler of this country. There is nothing to take back when you never had it in the first place.

A man who works for a large Fortune 500 Company was told he could not meet with fellow Christians in his work place. Meanwhile, other groups, like the homosexuals, are allowed to use company resources to meet and promote their group’s agenda.

Source?

A Christian business owner who owns a printing company was sued by a witch for refusing to print advocacy materials about witchcraft.

Technically a form of discrimination. Not that I am agreeing with the lawsuit.

A pastor who was invited to open a state Senate session in prayer and was asked to leave because he was going to end his prayer in Jesus’ name.

Source?

A Christian employee was ordered not to wear a Christian T-shirt while other employees were allowed to wear T-shirts with secular themes.

Did this Christian T-shirt say "It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve"? W/O know what the T-shirt says we cannot assume it was harmelss.

Countless Christian soul winners face hostility on America’s streets every day for simply handing out Gospel tracts.

What streets are they on? Because if they are walking in a bad area I think it has more to do with turf then it does with religion.

A pastor was cited by government officials for holding a Bible study group in his own home.

Again Source? I find this hard to believe.

Certain states do not want to allow Christianity to be taught in public schools even though Islam and other non-Christian religions are often taught as “cultural” subjects.

Until someone shows me how Islam and other non-Christian religions are being taught then I refuse to believe this. Are they being talked about in history class? Or are they actually learning about how the religion works.

This article proves nothing because it is so vague - and that is probably the point. Stir up trouble, without giving facts.

~Amanda
 
While we are talking about the involvement of religion in government or government in religion, thought this article might explain some things for any of you who aren't really familiar with First Ammendment and take to heart only what you have read in the media.

Seperation of Church and State (an article from the CLA)

Americans are generally uninformed when it comes to the United States Constitution. The results of a 2001 survey show that 84% of adults don’t know that freedom of religion is one of the five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment! On the flip side, the majority of Americans wrongly believe that the phrase “Separation of Church and State” is actually found in the Constitution.

Here is what the First Amendment actually says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As Christians we have come to associate the phrase “Separation of Church and State” with the government’s current hostility towards religion in the public arena. It is important, therefore, that we understand the “truth” about how this phrase became a part of constitutional case law and our culture.

Intent of First Amendment

The First Amendment was intended to forbid the federal government from establishing a national religion. The American people favored this because they had seen the harmful effects of established churches in most of the colonies. In Massachusetts, for example, Baptist pastors such as Isaac Backus were imprisoned for refusing to pay state taxes to support the established (Congregational) church.

In Virginia, the established Church of England had used the Divine, Moral, and Martial Laws of 1611 to compel daily church attendance. Willful failure to attend divine services could result in a loss of wages, whipping, imprisonment, or even death! Although Christians not belonging to the Church of England won the right to practice their faith in Virginia without fear of persecution in 1699, the state government still tried to exercise control in religious matters.

In the 1780s, the Virginia legislature considered a general tax bill for the support of “Teachers of the Christian Religion.” Payment was mandatory. As a result, Baptists, Presbyterians, Quakers, and other denominations vehemently opposed the bill. In 1785, James Madison expressed their sentiments well:

[T]hat religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right...We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man’s right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance.

The bill not only failed, but also served to promote the successful passage of Thomas Jefferson’s “Bill for the Establishment of Religious Freedom” in 1786. Under this Virginia law, the people could not be forced to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever. There could be no punishment for religious opinions or belief. Freedom of religious expression replaced the sin and tyranny of compelling a man to contribute to the spread of opinions that he disbelieved and abhorred.

Virginia’s religious freedom law laid a foundation for the passage of the First Amendment. By 1791, when the First Amendment was ratified, most of the colonies saw the merits of not establishing a national religion. The 1631 sentiments of Rhode Island’s Roger Williams were echoed in all but Maryland, Connecticut and Massachusetts:

God requireth not a uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state; which enforced uniformity (sooner or later) is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants, and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls.

Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association in the state of Connecticut rejoiced at the election of Thomas Jefferson as the third President of the United States. On October 7, they wrote to Jefferson, their fellow believer in religious liberty, saying: “[We] believe that America’s God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State.” The Danbury Baptists complained to Jefferson of religious laws made by Connecticut’s government. They feared the Congregationalist Church would become the state-sponsored religion and expressed approval for Jefferson’s refusal to “assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.” Although the Danbury Baptists understood that Jefferson, as President, could not “destroy the laws of each State,” they expressed hope that his sentiment would affect the States “like the radiant beams of the sun.”

It was Jefferson’s response to this letter that is the origin of the infamous phrase “Separation of Church and State.” Jefferson’s reply on January 1, 1802, showed his agreement with the Danbury Baptists that:

Religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. [View a draft of Jefferson's handwritten letter provided by the Library of Congress. Large file: 2.3mb]

In referring to this “wall of separation” Jefferson was borrowing from the metaphor of Roger Williams, a fellow Baptist and Rhode Island’s champion of religious freedom. Williams had previously written of “a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world.”

Interpretations of the “Wall of Separation”

Christian scholars interpret Jefferson’s Danbury letter in its context. They accept Jefferson’s view that religion is a personal matter that should not be regulated by the federal government and that the federal government has no power to change law in the States. They interpret the “wall of separation” in the same way as Roger Williams: as a wall to protect God’s garden from the world, to protect the church from the government.

In contrast, non-Christian scholars lift the Danbury letter out of its historical context. They turn the “wall” metaphor on its head and use it to protect the government from the church. This results in a concerted effort to rid government of any religious influence. Hence, the opposition to Bible reading in schools, the Boy Scouts, official proclamations promoting religious events, nativity scenes in public displays, the posting of the Ten Commandments on public buildings, prayer in public places, etc. They fail to recognize that the Danbury Baptists would never have rejoiced at Jefferson’s election if he stood for removal of religious influence on the government.

In 1947, the Supreme Court made the situation worse. This is when the Court gave the “wall” metaphor constitutional standing in Everson v. Board of Education. In this case, the court said:

The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach. (Note: no breach of the wall was found in Everson. The New Jersey statute permitting the state to reimburse parents for the expense of busing their children to and from private, including parochial, schools was upheld.)

In the Everson case the Supreme Court held for the first time that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment applied to individual states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Prior to this only the federal government was precluded from establishing a religion. It is this Supreme Court case that stands in the way of individual states passing legislation that favors religion.

The Everson decision is a clear departure from the view of the Founding Fathers. The First Amendment was not intended to stop the states from establishing a church or favoring a particular religion. Both Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists understood this. Jefferson’s reference to the legislature of “the whole American people” shows his understanding that the First Amendment applied to the federal government exclusively. Indeed, on January 23, 1808, Thomas Jefferson wrote to Rev. Samuel Miller saying:

Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority. . .

The Danbury Baptists did not even ask Jefferson to apply the First Amendment to the states. They acknowledged, “the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State.” Rather, they looked to Jefferson’s power of persuasion to prevail in Connecticut.

Actions Speak Louder Than Words

In the battleground to find the true meaning of the “wall of separation between Church and State” it is useful to consider the actions of the founders after the First Amendment was passed. A review of a sampling of their activities makes it is clear that the founders had no intention of neutralizing government from all religious reference:

• The House of Representatives called for a national day of prayer and thanksgiving on September 24, 1789—the same day that it passed the First Amendment.
• From 1789 to today, Congress has authorized chaplains, paid by public funds, to offer prayers in Congress and in the armed services.
• Jefferson closed the Danbury letter, written in his official capacity as President, with a prayer: “I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man.”
• On the very day Jefferson sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists he was making plans to attend church services in the House of Representatives.
• Jefferson signed a treaty into law in 1803 that provided for a government-funded missionary to the Kaskaskia Indians.
• In response to Congress’ request of July 9, 1812, President James Madison issued a proclamation recommending a day of public humiliation and prayer to be observed by the people of the United States, with religious solemnity.
• In 1832 and 1833, Congress approved land grants to Columbian College (later George Washington University) and Georgetown University, Baptist and Jesuit schools respectively.
• The Ten Commandments are inscribed on the wall of the United States Supreme Court.
• The Supreme Court begins each session with the prayer: “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.”
• The ongoing use of the New England Primer in public schools despite its many religious references.
• Every president has invoked God’s name in a prayerful manner in his inaugural address.

Presidential Viewpoints

This month as we celebrate President’s Day, let us also consider the views of our first three Presidents on matters of church and state:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.
—George Washington, Farewell Address to the United States, 1796

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
—John Adams, October 11, 1798

In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it, but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of the church or state authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies.
—Thomas Jefferson, Second Inaugural address, March 4, 1805

The intent of the First Amendment and the words and actions of our Founding Fathers, including Thomas Jefferson, clearly demonstrate how the words “the separation of church and state” were originally understood. These words were never intended to remove God from government; rather they were intended to keep government from controlling and manipulating religious practices. Unfortunately today, two hundred years after Jefferson wrote the phrase, these words have turned on those they were intended to protect.
 
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wvrevy said:
Stereotypes generally get to be stereotypes for a reason, Hound...Does everyone fall under the description I just mentioned ? Of course not. But a good number of the people you are choosing to associate yourself with most certainly will. I don't see how you could possibly even argue that.


I'll tell you what....When I see any Christians on tv news programs saying what you have often said on this forum, then I might believe that the majority of christians are as you describe them. But when the only voices I hear that claim to be christian are those of intolerance and hatred, then I will continue to doubt your assertion. If what you say is true, why aren't there more people out there saying that ? Why is it that the only people giving voice to their beliefs are nutjobs like Dobson or that idiot minister in North Carolina (take your pick of which one I'm talking about) ?

I wish more people took your attitude about it, I truly do. But I just don't see it...not even on this forum. If you want to blame somebody for how outsiders view Christians, I suggest you look on the inside of your religion for the reason, rather than at the people making the observation.


I rarely see the intolerance and hatred that you speak of. Yes, people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have said some very dumb things. However, I don't think Dobson is a nutjob at all. Many of us do give voice to our beliefs, but they are based on the Bible (which you have referred to as "moralistic fairy tales" and have consistenly mocked).

People on the left are way to quick to speak of "intolerance" or "hatred" especially when Christians do not condone certain lifestyles. I will say some Christians should emphasize God's love more than the rules - but the rules are still important.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
I rarely see the intolerance and hatred that you speak of. Yes, people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have said some very dumb things. However, I don't think Dobson is a nutjob at all. Many of us do give voice to our beliefs, but they are based on the Bible (which you have referred to as "moralistic fairy tales" and have consistenly mocked).

People on the left are way to quick to speak of "intolerance" or "hatred" especially when Christians do not condone certain lifestyles. I will say some Christians should emphasize God's love more than the rules - but the rules are still important.

So, you don't think "SpongeDob" is a nutcase? :rolleyes:
 
chobie said:
Is that the same chapter where Jesus tells people not to judge? Funny how that one always gets "reinterpreted" as well.
Chirstians are not supposed to judge. If we do, we are wrong. I see no reinterpretation of that in my comments. What are you referring to?

Its also funny how you changed the subject when I pointed out a different way of looking at scripture and was able to back up my point. I not you didn't answer my question.
 
There you go again quoting only from a Christian source, live4. My religion does not have a Satan. The whole concept of hell and sin is different yet you quote a group that only believes in Christ.
 
live4christp1 ,
Nice article. It was an interesting read. One thing that stuck out to me though is that in none of the founding father quotes did I see the word Christian. They had a national day of prayer -not christian prayer, but prayer.

If a President talks of God, it is because that is there belief. I don't neccessarily agree with them talking about it - but as long as they have no problem swearing to God, then neither do I. However I would find it interesting if a Muslim believer was ever elected and sweared to Ala. Tell me, would you have a problem with that?

The wall of seperation between Church and State is in place to protect both from the other. Yes it protects the Church from the state which was made most obvious by the DOZENS of priest who escaped trial for sexual molestation of children. It also protects the State from the Church - you cannot make legislation from the bible. And as long as this country does not establish a national religion - then religious symbols should be absent from governement buildings. Why is this such a big freaking deal? People have lived in the US for over 200 years, and some have done it w/o their religious symbols ever showing on the front lawn of their city hall!

~Amanda
 
chobie said:
Is that the same chapter where Jesus tells people not to judge? Funny how that one always gets "reinterpreted" as well.


Funny how if Christians express their beliefs or disagree with what someone is doing, they are so often accused of "judging."
 
wvrevy said:
Stereotypes generally get to be stereotypes for a reason, Hound...Does everyone fall under the description I just mentioned ? Of course not. But a good number of the people you are choosing to associate yourself with most certainly will. I don't see how you could possibly even argue that.


I'll tell you what....When I see any Christians on tv news programs saying what you have often said on this forum, then I might believe that the majority of christians are as you describe them. But when the only voices I hear that claim to be christian are those of intolerance and hatred, then I will continue to doubt your assertion. If what you say is true, why aren't there more people out there saying that ? Why is it that the only people giving voice to their beliefs are nutjobs like Dobson or that idiot minister in North Carolina (take your pick of which one I'm talking about) ?

I wish more people took your attitude about it, I truly do. But I just don't see it...not even on this forum. If you want to blame somebody for how outsiders view Christians, I suggest you look on the inside of your religion for the reason, rather than at the people making the observation.


Just when I thought I was out, they draw me back in! :goodvibes . I am joining WDW Hound in building a new stereotype. I am now sitting in my office at the church wearing jeans and Reeboks. On dressy days I wear khakis. Does this qualify as the beginning of a new stereotype, or do I have to get on "Hannity and Colmes" or Anderson Cooper 180" to qualify.

I am getting ready to leave for the jail in 40 minutes, where I will participate in a Bible study in which I will not make one single presumption or judgment about anyone's crimes or sexuality. Yep... shocking as that may be to some, I don't hate gay people :wave2: . I love people in the midst of their brokenness regardless of sexuality or voting preference. Yet -imagine this -I am a Christian who has been known to vote Republican. And my faith leads me out to where the real action is -schools, businesses, streets, etc where I will not hide who I am. While I am theer I might even -gasp, PRAY -because that is exactly how Jesus did it, and I am trying to the best of my limited feeble ability to live as He would have me do. I want to inspire and encourage, not hate and belittle.

Not that I wear a cross regularly, but when I do I will not be tucking it inside my shirt. That just seems peculiar in this world where I am forced to look at the bellybuttons (jewelry included) of every female over the age of 10. More than that, if I have the occasion or desire to pray I will do it out loud on the steps of City Hall -if the occasion arises. As I said earlier in this thread, sometimes my sisters and brothers in Christ overstate their case. BUt that is far from this country's worst worry.

The way some people write, Christians must be more dangerous than Pirates. Grrrrrrr...we're coming to get you! ;)
 
wvrevy said:
Stereotypes generally get to be stereotypes for a reason, Hound...Does everyone fall under the description I just mentioned ? Of course not. But a good number of the people you are choosing to associate yourself with most certainly will. I don't see how you could possibly even argue that.


I'll tell you what....When I see any Christians on tv news programs saying what you have often said on this forum, then I might believe that the majority of christians are as you describe them. But when the only voices I hear that claim to be christian are those of intolerance and hatred, then I will continue to doubt your assertion. If what you say is true, why aren't there more people out there saying that ? Why is it that the only people giving voice to their beliefs are nutjobs like Dobson or that idiot minister in North Carolina (take your pick of which one I'm talking about) ?

I wish more people took your attitude about it, I truly do. But I just don't see it...not even on this forum. If you want to blame somebody for how outsiders view Christians, I suggest you look on the inside of your religion for the reason, rather than at the people making the observation.

I blame both. I actively work against those Christians who perpetuate the stereotypes, but I also work to dispell the myth that they are the majority. I tell you quite plainly that they are not and I ask you to consider that you might not be seeing an accurate picture. The judgemental ones are the most vocal, so they are the ones you see. They are the most contraversial, so the media loves them.

You just said that the day you see Christians on the media saying the things I say, you will beleive me. Well, that will never happen. The media doesn't want to portray Christians in that light. Only contraversy makes them money, and the views of the majority of Christians are not contraversial.

For example, at the last World Conference of the United Methodist Church, many things were discussed. These included celbrations of our diversity, discussion of how to futher help the poor and homeless, and the church's promotion of environmentalism. The media covered non of that, but ALL the major news networks ran a story on a possible schism in the church involving gay ministers. They reported that a motion was filed to split the church and tried to show heated debate on the topic. The was an absolute distortion of the facts. No motion was ever filed. A very small group of several people tried and failed to do so. What DID happen was that a motion was filed and approved that the church needed to recognize that different opinoins on this subject existed and that we need to work together in a spirit of love and understanding to try to undertand each others views, but again, not ONE news network or paper mentioned that. Once the contraversy (which was never large in the first place) was over, they dropped the story.

So, if you get your views of Christianity from the media, you would have seen a bunch of Christians arguing over a motion on whether Gay people could be ministers (a motion which was actually never even brought to the floor of the conference), and you would never see what the majority agreed to do regarding the issue, which was to agree to openy and respectfullly consider all the viewpoints on the issue and encourage dialog with the goal of unity. In short, you will NEVER get an acurate portayal of Christians from the media.

Are there hateful, judgemental Christians out there? Yes. Are they the against the majority? No. We may be too silent and should possibly speak out more against the the ones who give Christianity a bad name, but as a group we are not what you think we are. Not even close. Try walking into your local Methodist church next Sunday and asking them about their views. They would be happy to tell you and no one will try to convert you. I think you would be surprised at what you find.
 
I don't get too worried about these types of things, because extremsim in either direction (too liberal or too conservative) generally doesn't ever get taken too seriously.

The Constitution still works.
 
Disney Doll said:
I don't get too worried about these types of things, because extremsim in either direction (too liberal or too conservative) generally doesn't ever get taken too seriously.

The Constitution still works.

I see what you mean, but I think the constitution will only continue to work if we stay ever vigilant against extremism. Different kinds are going to bother different people to different degrees. You conservatives that want to speak out against liberal extremism - be my guest. The Christian right just happens to scare me more.
 
Zippa D Doodah said:
The way some people write, Christians must be more dangerous than Pirates. Grrrrrrr...we're coming to get you! ;)
:rotfl2:
YoHo YoHo, a Christian life fo me!
Bless you, (argggg!)
pirate:
 
Charade said:
Well, the only inaccuracy that I can see is that somehow the left thinks the right is made up of an entire group of these kooks.

This is an inaccurate statement.
 
I am starting to feel SO LONELY in my own country. Christian this; Christian that. Christians are not being tolerated. Christians cannot express their religious beliefs.

I am going to use very tough language. If it offends then so what I am tired of being ignored. Your bible is not my bible do not quote it to me as how I should live my life. Your symbols are not my symbols do not put them there for me to view. You have usurped my Ten Commandments. They are not yours to do with as you please. Moses brought them down from Mt. Sinai for the people of Israel. If you believe in them so much then follow them as Moses did. Keep the Sabboth holy be observing it on Saturday not Sunday. Do not make graven images like statues, icons, crosses with jesus on it and worship them. If it is so important to have these commandments on government buildings where is my Star of David that belongs with it. Yes, chaplains have opened congress. G-d is cited in opening the supreme court but does the clerk say Christian G-d or just G-d. When was the last time a Rabbi opened an ignagural(sic) with a prayer. When was the last time congress had a Rabbi open a new session with a prayer.

I was there in school when prayers were still read once a week at assembly. The principal used the King James Version to read from never The Torah. How was I included in this prayer?

By the way the 14th admendment was passed so that the southern states could not treat blacks as second class citizens using 'states rights' as an excuse. They did so anyway and it took years to strip away Jim Crow. The Supreme Court did not overstep its bounds on the 'wall' analogy.

In today's society with 'competing' religious organizations which group should 'influence' government. Bhuddism is becoming a significant minority with so many Asians now living here so maybe Bhuddism should have a say in government actions.

There are several posters on this board who have demonstrated an understanding of my feelings on these topics and have not tried to 'preach'. They know who they are and I have respect for them. They are true believers in separation. On the other hand there are others who be word believe that I am 'wrong' and they are 'right' so I am part of the Christian bashing that I acknowledge does go on by some. I bash no one. I could care less how you live your religious life as long as you keep it out of my life. And the only way to do that is to not require moral legislation.

I am not a religious person; think that evolution is fact(theory as defined by science); believe that life does not begin at conception, etc. but am proud of my heritage as a Jew and do not wish to have to follow someone else's moral values when they conflict with my heritage. My wife has had no family beyond her parents because 'christians' derided her beliefs so I will strongly and fiercely defend the separation of church and state.
 

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