Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

How 'bout this...

Can someone draw up the possibilities for connections using Google Earth and paint?

I did this really quick trying to show a walking bridge connecting the tower to a new entrance that would be next to Germany (so like the BLT bridge but bigger)

Also painted in a widening of the canal to show how long it would be. Also raised the question as that canal is on the other side of Buena Vista Bvld - so do people first have to walk over a bridge to get to the canal or do you build a water bridge over Buena Vista (or have Buena vista go over/under a new canal) that goes right to Caribbean Beach?

The more you lay it out just feels like only thing that would be practical is a 3rd entrance from a walking bridge - which in and of itself doesn't seem practical have to staff a new entrance just for one resort

Caribbean Beach access to EPCOT.jpg
 
I know we're spitballing here...but I will bet someone else's farm that a waterbridge over buena vista would only be built if they had a guarantee that magic unicorns would live in it...real ones.
 
The more you lay it out just feels like only thing that would be practical is a 3rd entrance from a walking bridge - which in and of itself doesn't seem practical have to staff a new entrance just for one resort

Seems that's the only impractical practical option if they had to do park access.
 
Seems that's the only impractical practical option if they had to do park access.

yeah, unless they are thinking bigger and a new resort in between CBR and AoA that could also link into some new transportation method - I just don't see it all for this one resort
 

Really? If it's "just" $37.85 million and some landscaping to link CBR to Epcot/DHS then why don't ALL resorts have a direct park access? Why don't we build a big bridge and link Coronado to AK? It's relatively the same distance as the crow flies from CBR to Epcot. Why don't we just go ahead and link all the value resorts to MK too? There's a reason it wasn't done in the beginning and there's a reason it won't be done now. The infrastructure required to do this does not exist and to make it exist will require substantial investment and then upkeep for absolutely no ROI. It creates more logistical nightmares than it solves the "how do we sell a moderate resort for deluxe DVC prices?" However, what you have come to your senses on is that if this is DVC then it MUST have park access to command the prices of DVC in it's current model to satisfy the demand of its current clientele. I just need you to come to your senses on how NOT easy and cheap it will be to do such a thing.



Exactly. While I realize the last part of your statement is sarcasm, your statement proved my point. If putting a tower on CBR property and dredging a canal makes CBR a deluxe DVC resort then what is stopping them from doing the same thing to POP, AOA, and then linking them to the imaginary CBR canal and calling them deluxe?? What will make AOA and POP command the same prices as CBR?

I used POP as my example because I knew it shared property lines with CBR. Disney does its landscaping so well, that until @lockedoutlogic pointed it out, you had no idea that they were connected and shared a housekeeping warehouse even though we both tried to tell you they were the same property separated by some trees and a parking lot. The Disney consumer has budgets and Disney designed resorts to match those budgets. Again, you don't get to call the Hampton Inn and the Waldorf Astoria the same level of resort because they both have beds and this is what you're trying to do with CBR vs other deluxe WDW properties. In no way would you expect the Waldorf to have Hampton Inn prices and vice versa and why is that? Is it because of clever marketing schemes or is it because one of these resorts is better than the other? The answer is because the Waldorf is significantly better than the Hampton. Yes, they both have beds, but the Waldorf uses higher quality linens, bedding, and mattresses. They both have furniture, but the Waldorf furniture comes from a high end manufacturer and the Hampton comes from Target. They both have pools, but the Waldorf pool has 6 waterfalls, jets every 10 feet, and a swim up bar. The Hampton Inn pool is a blue hole in the ground with one of those motorized handicapped lift chairs. It doesn't have waterfalls, or jets, or a swim up bar. The both have interior corridors leading to the rooms. The Hampton Inn has Sears carpet and the Waldorf has fresh flower arrangements in the hallways.

Are you getting it now? You can't just build a tower at CBR, throw in a new pool, and an incredibly expensive waterway and call it a deluxe. You have to have the service to match a deluxe level resort. You have to have the amenities to match a deluxe level resort. They're not going to build deluxe level service and attach it to a lower price point hotel to "share".

So here's where we agreed before. They must make CBR 2.0 it's own resort in order for it to have the deluxe label. The question remains, can they add enough infrastructure and theming to make this stand alone and command deluxe level prices WITHOUT park access? My position is unlikely, but not impossible. They'd have to make it comparable to the Four Seasons and I don't see that happening at CBR unless they completely demolish it and then you're losing a lot of moderate level rooms unless the expansion at CSR can accommodate for that. CSR is such a big resort already that I'm not sure its infrastructure could handle the CBR capacity so that's why I believe CBR will REMAIN a moderate level resort.

We agree on a lot, more than you think. The issue you and many people aren't seeing is basically the pattern /planning of the resorts as a whole throughout WDW. To make this as simple and as short as I can, CBR doesn't fit as a moderate resort in its location. Look at all the properties across all of WDW. The deluxe / expensive hotels all have good location next to a park with easy access. That is also why the other moderates and value resorts don't have better transportation options, I'm not sure what all the sarcasm from other posters was about because that has been my point all along. CBR doesn't fit the bill as a moderate in it's prime location. Disney is fixing that with the deluxe DVC tower. You simply can't argue a deluxe DVC with all the amenities and location as all the other deluxe DVC's can't be a real deluxe resort because it shares amenities with an old moderate. That is completely illogical. The bottom line is CBR should have been a deluxe resort all along and that is why it will be a deluxe DVC in the future.
 
The bottom line is CBR should have been a deluxe resort all along and that is why it will be a deluxe DVC in the future.
Not sure why it "should" have been a deluxe resort. Disney intentionally built it to a lower standard and a lower price point to attract more people to stay on site rather than at the surrounding chains. It was a success at that and resulted in Disney building more moderate resorts on property. Sometime later they repeated this success with the value resorts.
 
Not sure why it "should" have been a deluxe resort. Disney intentionally built it to a lower standard and a lower price point to attract more people to stay on site rather than at the surrounding chains. It was a success at that and resulted in Disney building more moderate resorts on property. Sometime later they repeated this success with the value resorts.

Exactly, that is my point. How many of those moderate and value resorts did they build in direct proximity to a park with easy access? Answer: zero. How many deluxe resorts did they build next to the parks or have easy access? Answer: all of them except SSR and OKW. The valuation of the property was different 3 decades ago and a moderate resort probably was the right choice. That doesn't mean it's still the right fit for WDW today. As I mentioned before, if CBR was vacant land, no way Disney builds anything but a deluxe resort on that land. That is why CBR is so attractive for a deluxe DVC.

... and so everyone will stop whining, yes, AKL and AK are different. They are different because of their location and to an extent, that contributes to AK being less popular than MK in addition to it still being a relatively new park which a lot of people consider a half day park. If you ask me, AKL is the nicest resort of them all with the most amenities; but, because of it's remote location it can't demand rates close to monorail resorts. ... and for the same reason CSR shouldn't have direct access to AK and it is in the same situation CBR was 3 decades ago. Maybe if AK continues to grow and the area becomes as popular as the Epcot area is then maybe CSR would be attractive for a DVC; but, at this point obviously it isn't .
 
Exactly, that is my point. How many of those moderate and value resorts did they build in direct proximity to a park with easy access? Answer: zero. How many deluxe resorts did they build next to the parks or have easy access? Answer: all of them except SSR and OKW. The valuation of the property was different 3 decades ago and a moderate resort probably was the right choice. That doesn't mean it's still the right fit for WDW today. As I mentioned before, if CBR was vacant land, no way Disney builds anything but a deluxe resort on that land. That is why CBR is so attractive for a deluxe DVC.

... and so everyone will stop whining, yes, AKL and AK are different. They are different because of their location and to an extent, that contributes to AK being less popular than MK in addition to it still being a relatively new park which a lot of people consider a half day park. If you ask me, AKL is the nicest resort of them all with the most amenities; but, because of it's remote location it can't demand rates close to monorail resorts. ... and for the same reason CSR shouldn't have direct access to AK and it is in the same situation CBR was 3 decades ago. Maybe if AK continues to grow and the area becomes as popular as the Epcot area is then maybe CSR would be attractive for a DVC; but, at this point obviously it isn't .
I would disagree that the lack of direct park access has even the slightest impact on Aks overall attendance.
 
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Caribbean was the first hotel built to garner a "lower" price...from conception, to design, to construction. Again...this is not up for debate. It is the history of the property.

And akl is one of the nicest hotels...and it's as close as it can physically be because of the large hoofed animals that encircle it. Try walking past a zebra and not having it kick you in the ribs...strong legs.

Did you know that the standard rates of akl when it opened in April of 2001 were the second highest on average at wdw?...only below the grand. Eisner insisted it because of his championing of animal kingdom (against board wishes...who favored expansion at the existing parks) and the animal
Kingdom lodge. But like ak...the lodge suffered from "poor attendance". Bookings were lagging in the 40% range for a year and a half until they had to slash them...and they ended up on the low end of the scale.

People don't like zoos like they do amusement parks...that's why most zoos are public and they struggle to break even. Taxes have to pay for them. But moreover...the theme didn't play. It's easy to figure out why but I won't fill in that blank.

They spent a fortune on akl...the onsite amenities are second only to grand floridian if we are honest. Without v&a I'm not so sure that even holds...

You know where they didn't spend a fortune?

Caribbean. They intentionally didn't put it on a park...it's not like it was an oversight...
And they intentionally put crappy 80's pools from the cookie cutter there...and they intentionally put very limited food and shop options. It's exactly what they wanted because they knew they had to sell it for certain prices.

This "it's meant to be a deluxe" has now become the silliest harping on this board...I'm nominating it for the hall of fame.

"Location location location" works everywhere else on earth EXCEPT wdw..where it's master planning with no outside influence.

And as said now for days: logistically the location isn't that great. I know it's so "easy" to connect it...except there are about 100 reasons why it isnt and one that it "is"

"Looks close to me"

Enough already...just see what's built and we'll debate the pros and cons then.

Honestly, it's time for the curtain to fall on this thread or 2 minutes in the box...maybe a double minor...and I'm
The one who NEVER says don't talk. Anyone can back me on that stance.
 
There are obviously a lot of what ifs here. If we can keep it to what we know and feasible what ifs like the possibility of DVC we should be fine. However after 47 pages I think this canal argument and what not is getting a bit old. There is currently no evidence that suggest it will happen right now. Let's just go back to the top of the expansion.
 
Certainly a whole bunch of what ifs that have been dragged through the swamp mud. Are there any indications on dates based on the permit applications when something might provide a bit of clarity as to the intended direction?
 
Usually once they file with sfwmd, something starts in 6-12 months at the latest.

There are exceptions...like Hyperion wharf...remember that jewel?
 
Certainly a whole bunch of what ifs that have been dragged through the swamp mud. Are there any indications on dates based on the permit applications when something might provide a bit of clarity as to the intended direction?
Well, we have the height balloon tests which lead it to being a tower. We have the permits which show the shapes of the buildings. Then we also have permits for installation of construction trailers which was filed recently. The permits show they will be taking out a section of rooms at the resort for a large new building.

This is all we really know.
 
Well, we have the height balloon tests which lead it to being a tower. We have the permits which show the shapes of the buildings. Then we also have permits for installation of construction trailers which was filed recently. The permits show they will be taking out a section of rooms at the resort for a large new building.

This is all we really know.
Sounds like a good place to start.
 
It seems unlikely that a canal or even a bridge is planned if no application has been made for either.

Even a bridge would require a lot of site prep around the road, canal and both the back end of Epcot and the public side where the gate would be built. If not a single concrete step has been taken, such as planning/permits, clearing away parking lots, trailers, etc. but the tower has permits and plans filed then it's hard to see this as a park-connected resort.
 
Well, we have the height balloon tests which lead it to being a tower. We have the permits which show the shapes of the buildings. Then we also have permits for installation of construction trailers which was filed recently. The permits show they will be taking out a section of rooms at the resort for a large new building.

This is all we really know.

That's actually a great little summary of where it stands right now. Beyond that, all is conjecture and opinion.
 
It seems unlikely that a canal or even a bridge is planned if no application has been made for either.

Even a bridge would require a lot of site prep around the road, canal and both the back end of Epcot and the public side where the gate would be built. If not a single concrete step has been taken, such as planning/permits, clearing away parking lots, trailers, etc. but the tower has permits and plans filed then it's hard to see this as a park-connected resort.

I was gonna bring this up 38 pages ago...but I felt like it would have fallen on deaf ears...that must be physically sealed shut.
 
Last night I was trying to figure out what it would take for me to stay at a CBR DVC on points. Note that this is my personal bar: I fully expect others to have different thresholds, and that doesn't make either of us wrong. With that said:

As a truly "moderate" DVC - no new amenities, no park access, probably smaller and less well-appointed rooms compared to other DVC locations: I can get a cash-rate equivalent for what, about $150/night in mid-season? More significantly, I can get a magic season studio at any of SSR, OKW, AKL, or WL for $80-$100/night in dues cost (I own at SSR, so my dues are on the lower side, and yes, I am deliberately ignoring buy-in cost). So if I'm going to "downgrade" to a moderate, I'd have to be comfortably under $80/night in a studio. Probably closer to $50-$60. So 10-12 points/night in mid-season, and probably 7-8 in very low season. Along that same reasoning, I can easily trade into an SSR 1-bedroom at almost any time of year with my external timeshare, at a total cost to me of about $950/week. So a 1BD option at a moderate CBR would have to come in lower to be worthwhile, probably around 20 points/night in mid season. Not sure that's logistically or operationally feasible.

As a "lower end" DVC option, priced in the same range as OKW or SSR, I think I would need:
- Decent sized rooms
- A nice pool, preferably close enough that my kids don't feel compelled to take a bus to get there
- Walking access to IG. This has been touched on but not discussed much in this thread. IMO this truly would not be crazy expensive or difficult - you'd need a pedestrian bridge over the road and a sidewalk along the canal. No difficult technical barriers, no need for additional staff, no great construction expense or ongoing maintenance costs. Adequate lighting/security at night would probably be the biggest concern. I don't think they'll actually do this, of course. My family would use it, but I know we're in the heavy minority. And that fire department (or whatever it is) with its bridge over the canal probably presents a logistical difficulty.
- I really don't care much about restaurants. On a DVC stay we mostly eat in our room or in the parks. I'd be fine with a QS.

Without at least walking access to EPCOT, there would have to be some other hook to make me choose CBR over OKW or SSR, or even standard view at AKL. OKW has big rooms, AK has animals, and we actually like SSR. I don't particularly mind "spread out", my kids like the pools and the community hall, and while I'm not a big shopper, we do wander over to DS from time to time. What would CBR offer to compete with that at a similar price point?

As a "high end" DVC priced in the same range as Poly or VGF... honestly, I can't see it. Even with *good* access to EPCOT, upgraded amenities, fancy pool, all of that - I think I'm still going to choose Poly/VGF/BLT/BC/BW over CBR at that price point. If I couldn't get into any of Poly/VGF/BLT/BC/BW, then maybe? But even then, I think I'd be more likely to choose one of the cheaper DVC options over a CBR studio at 25+ points/night.

<sigh> No matter how I slice this, it's hard to make a compelling case.
 
It seems unlikely that a canal or even a bridge is planned if no application has been made for either.

Even a bridge would require a lot of site prep around the road, canal and both the back end of Epcot and the public side where the gate would be built. If not a single concrete step has been taken, such as planning/permits, clearing away parking lots, trailers, etc. but the tower has permits and plans filed then it's hard to see this as a park-connected resort.

I agree from a canal/waterway standpoint. The permit is for movement of drainage ponds and waterways primarily, and any canal would involve some major reworking of that.

However, it doesn't rule out a walkway - the permit isn't really for construction just yet, while it lays out the building locations, there's a lot of things that aren't shown. Particularly, their isn't an area for a pool, which whether it would be DVC or hotels there would still be a pool there. So, a walkway likely wouldn't yet show up in the existing permit.
 












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