Owning Riviera with Restrictions

[tom1944]

I wonder about the likelihood of Riv direct going on promotion along with Poly 2 when that goes up for sale. That's sort of what I'm hoping for. Maybe something for current members like $190-200pp again.

I'm always big on resale until I realize that it saves only something like 30-40% off of the upfront cost, after which dues are identical for the life of the contract, and so the overall savings at end-of-day (total costs of ownership) compared to direct are much less than they'd appear. In the case of Riviera with all this concern about being stuck with expiring points if needing to cancel within 7 months, potential difficulty selling down the line if necessary, etc, I'm trying to focus less on the difference between $217 vs $135 and more on the larger picture. Saving $5-10k upfront may not be worth it.

I believe a mix of direct and resale points would work best for us. The direct points would be out to longer expiration dates and the resale points could end as we age.

 

[Yankee626]

Having witnessed changes to DVC member booking patterns for 20 years now, the simplest answer to this is: aren't we already at a point where people book as early as possible??

The rate of resales is pretty low..less than 1.5% of all points each year across all resorts. Saratoga Springs (which coincidentally is about 20 years old) had about 1.3% of its points change hands via private transaction in 2021 and 0.9% in 2022.

That's for a relatively mature resort. Riviera resales accounted for only about 22k points COMBINED in 2021-2022. That's less than .5% of Riviera's 4.4 million declared points being re-sold over the span of 2 years.

And these raw transaction numbers cannot account for points which are sold multiple times. Even *IF* a resort averaged 1% of its points resold each year, that doesn't mean 10% of the points are resales after 10 years because some contracts are bound to change hands more than once.

Throw all these factors together and I'd be shocked if Riviera was more than 15% resale when it hits 20 years old. (Perhaps far less than that since it's only averaging .25% each of the last 2 years. The mere existence of the resale restrictions--and potential financial loss--may make owners less inclined to sell.)

Nobody will ever be completely "shut out" because there's room for everyone to use their points. That's the point of a timeshare. And the vast majority of owners will have full direct purchase rights for many years to come.

Members' booking aggressiveness has long varied from one resort to the next. Owners of BCV, BWV and VGC should have very different expectations for booking their Home resort than owners of SSR or OKW. Perhaps the simplest conclusion to draw is that Riviera will be more like BWV than SSR. Doom and gloom predictions of people not being able to get into Riviera inside of the 11 month window are pretty extreme, IMO.

The problem isn't about being able to get a resort at 11 months but to be able to get a studio at that time. Most of the contracts sold are between 100-150 points allowing only enough points to get into a studio. The system is not set up for this. Many owners may find themselves having to bank and borrow points to get a 1 Bedroom or 2 bedroom .

 

[tjkraz]

The problem isn't about being able to get a resort at 11 months but to be able to get a studio at that time. Most of the contracts sold are between 100-150 points allowing only enough points to get into a studio. The system is not set up for this. Many owners may find themselves having to bank and borrow points to get a 1 Bedroom or 2 bedroom .

Riviera has a higher % of studios (43%) than most other WDW resorts. Only BWV, PVB and VGF are higher. BWV's inclusion is deceptive because it has no dedicated 2 Bedrooms, meaning that a Studio is used whenever someone books either a Studio OR a 2BR. Only 18% of its rooms are dedicated studios.

PVB and VGF are obvious due to their heavy balance of Studios.

Riviera has the capacity to absorb higher Studio demand better than every other resort at WDW.

 

[Yankee626]

Riviera has a higher % of studios (43%) than most other WDW resorts. Only BWV, PVB and VGF are higher. BWV's inclusion is deceptive because it has no dedicated 2 Bedrooms, meaning that a Studio is used whenever someone books either a Studio OR a 2BR. Only 18% of its rooms are dedicated studios.

PVB and VGF are obvious due to their heavy balance of Studios.

Riviera has the capacity to absorb higher Studio demand better than every other resort at WDW.

That still means 57% are not studios requiring more than 150 points for a week .

 

[Yankee626]

Honestly ! If you buy any resort with restrictions as a resale your only buying a 4 month window at that resort. NO OTHER OPTIONS ! Thats way too constricting for the amount your paying in my opinion.

 

[tjkraz]

That still means 57% are not studios requiring more than 150 points for a week .

And at BLT, 69% are not studios. And at CCV, 65% are not studios.

Anecdotally, yes studios are the most sought-after accommodation type. But it's a mistake to believe that people only book 1B or 2B villas as some sort of last resort. To many people, banking and borrowing are routine aspects of point management, not something to be feared or despised. I own sub-100 point contracts at 3 resorts, and regularly use banking and borrowing to book larger rooms every 2-3 years.

Obviously there are people who should avoid Riviera resale. And some owners may end up losing points if they are not extra careful. But the doom and gloom scenarios are a bit excessive IMO.

 

[pianomanzano]

And at BLT, 69% are not studios. And at CCV, 65% are not studios.

Anecdotally, yes studios are the most sought-after accommodation type. But it's a mistake to believe that people only book 1B or 2B villas as some sort of last resort. To many people, banking and borrowing are routine aspects of point management, not something to be feared or despised. I own sub-100 point contracts at 3 resorts, and regularly use banking and borrowing to book larger rooms every 2-3 years.

Obviously there are people who should avoid Riviera resale. And some owners may end up losing points if they are not extra careful. But the doom and gloom scenarios are a bit excessive IMO.

Agreed. This is an issue DVC-wide, not just RIviera and I would say it's not even that much of an issue at Riviera. Like at CCV where point minimums for buy-in was 75 points when it first went on sale and they have those point hungry cabins.

It's pretty easy to get a studio at RIV for most of the year. The only time I've had difficulty is for the first week of December, and I was able to get it shortly after 11 months when I waitlisted and the walkers went past my dates.

 

[J-Dog]

The problem isn't about being able to get a resort at 11 months but to be able to get a studio at that time. Most of the contracts sold are between 100-150 points allowing only enough points to get into a studio. The system is not set up for this. Many owners may find themselves having to bank and borrow points to get a 1 Bedroom or 2 bedroom .

This just goes to show that everybody's opinions are different, because I never have, and have no plans to book a studio any time soon. I just looked yesterday, and there were both 1BR and 2BR preferred available for a full week in early December (7 months), standard views were a little more sporadic but still available.

In other words, the doom and gloom scenario may apply for some people, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

 

[mz-s]

Those villas at Riviera are extremely nice too...buying a timeshare for exclusive use at Riviera is not a bad way to go, for the right price obviously...

 

[Yankee626]

And at BLT, 69% are not studios. And at CCV, 65% are not studios.

Anecdotally, yes studios are the most sought-after accommodation type. But it's a mistake to believe that people only book 1B or 2B villas as some sort of last resort. To many people, banking and borrowing are routine aspects of point management, not something to be feared or despised. I own sub-100 point contracts at 3 resorts, and regularly use banking and borrowing to book larger rooms every 2-3 years.

Obviously there are people who should avoid Riviera resale. And some owners may end up losing points if they are not extra careful. But the doom and gloom scenarios are a bit excessive IMO.

There are no restrictions on the points at CCV or BLT

 

[mz-s]

There are no restrictions on the points at CCV or BLT

Yes there are, recent resale owners of those resorts can not book at Riviera at all.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Yes there are, recent resale owners of those resorts can not book at Riviera at all.

Correct. So if someone decides they don't like the room options or resale restrictions at Riviera, and opts to purchase resale somewhere else, the only down side is they can't book rooms at the resort they were avoiding in the first place...

 

[kboo]

isn't it reasonable to expect that owner behavior may continue to shift towards "book as early as possible," effectively shutting some other owners out?

This assumes everyone wants the exact same dates. There are definitely times that are crazier than others (fall frenzy, Christmas) Book as early as possible is generally a good thing no matter when you want to go, and if you need to change your dates or add/drop a day here and there, it is much easier than trying to get a block of days in a row in a standard view room 4 months in advance. And, i was also going to say this:

Members' booking aggressiveness has long varied from one resort to the next. Owners of BCV, BWV and VGC should have very different expectations for booking their Home resort than owners of SSR or OKW. Perhaps the simplest conclusion to draw is that Riviera will be more like BWV than SSR. Doom and gloom predictions of people not being able to get into Riviera inside of the 11 month window are pretty extreme, IMO.

If you want a standard view studio (and/or standard view of any kind) or a tower studio at Riviera, you will likely need to book in the 7-11 mo window. But I've never had to book at 11 mo to the day for anything at Riviera except for a standard view room over New Year's. I always try to book close to 11 mo, but usually there are standard views available until around 7-8 months out.

If you want a standard view room of any kind at BLT, you have to book in the 7-11 mo window. No question, at any time of year. For thanksgiving one year, I got "the last" 2br at 8am at the 11mo window.

Before resort studios at VGF, Christmas week was the hunger games. you might get lucky at 8am, otherwise, I was on the site every day booking whatever I could get, and then waitlisting. One year I had every single room type booked over a span of 6 days studio, 1br, 2br, and maybe a GV night, and an assortment of standard and preferred views, until I waitlisted my way to a 1br std which is what I wanted all along. Other times of year at VGF are not so bad, but if you want standard view you need the home resort window.

We've always had good luck with the waitlist. I've never not been able to take a trip when I wanted because of being shut out completely from a room. I am waitlisting a BWV standard 2br during F&W but it hasn't come through yet, and considering just staying at BLT anyway.

 

[mz-s]

Correct. So if someone decides they don't like the room options or resale restrictions at Riviera, and opts to purchase resale somewhere else, the only down side is they can't book rooms at the resort they were avoiding in the first place...

Well it evens out is what I'm saying. Going forward only those with grandfathered points, direct points or resale points specific to Riviera can book there. So yes people who buy resale at Riviera today can only book Riviera, but people who buy resale from any other resort cannot book Riviera.

 

[Yankee626]

Yes there are, recent resale owners of those resorts can not book at Riviera at all.

Its hardly a restriction when you can book @ 14 other resorts depending on availability. It doesn't matter what availability is at other resorts if you own a Riviera Resale contract. Buyer beware . Thats all . My thoughts are why bother with it if there are other options . Heck i like the Riv, Ive stayed there twice with my GFV points . I plan to use those points at DHV too.

 

[take36]

Its hardly a restriction when you can book @ 14 other resorts depending on availability. It doesn't matter what availability is at other resorts if you own a Riviera Resale contract. Buyer beware . Thats all .

Yes! And one day Rivera won't be so new and in need of refurbishment. Beauty of DVC was if your home resort is in need of TLC then you try to book somewhere else (Boulder Ridge is a recent example as pre and post refurbishment demands differ). With Rivera Resale, you are there for better or worst.

 

[kanerf]

I have 150 pnts at RIV, 50 of them resale. I have not encountered any issues using them. I usually stay 3 nights or so at RIV for each of my two 10 day trips each year. I am there now in a 1 Bdrm overlooking Epcot. Can see the fireworks and all, even though it is a standard view. I am on the 9th floor, so that helps.

 

[crvetter]

Yes! And one day Rivera won't be so new and in need of refurbishment. Beauty of DVC was if your home resort is in need of TLC then you try to book somewhere else (Boulder Ridge is a recent example as pre and post refurbishment demands differ). With Rivera Resale, you are there for better or worst.

This is true, though I will say that the newer refurbs/builds are much higher quality material in terms of longevity. More hard surfaces and less soft surfaces. This isn't for just Riviera but all of them, for instance CCV is approaching 7 years now and is in excellent shape compared to BWV which supposedly had a full refurbishment 7ish years ago.

 

[mz-s]

Its hardly a restriction when you can book @ 14 other resorts depending on availability. It doesn't matter what availability is at other resorts if you own a Riviera Resale contract. Buyer beware . Thats all . My thoughts are why bother with it if there are other options . Heck i like the Riv, Ive stayed there twice with my GFV points . I plan to use those points at DHV too.

The rift between resale and direct will continue to grow as more resorts come online with restrictions.

 

[CarolynFH]

This is true, though I will say that the newer refurbs/builds are much higher quality material in terms of longevity. More hard surfaces and less soft surfaces. This isn't for just Riviera but all of them, for instance CCV is approaching 7 years now and is in excellent shape compared to BWV which supposedly had a full refurbishment 7ish years ago.

Actually, BWV had only a “soft goods refresh” not a full refurb back in 2016. That’s one reason I was so mad that the BRV refurb was pushed back in order to refresh Poly and VGF - it pushed BWV back, and both BRV and BWV needed refurb way more than either Poly or VGF. I can hardly wait for the full refurb!