OT: ease my mind about immunizations!

[jodifla]

From what I have found, each disease had been virtually eliminated decades before the introduction of the relevant vaccine; through improved hygiene, better nutrition, clean drinking water and improved sanitation and health care. Basically, as people's overall health and immune systems improved, they didn't get sick. Check out reliable sources such as the Lancet, WHO and UNICE for graphs that show vaccinations were not the reason for the decline in the diseases.
I just want to say even if you do vaccinate, I applaud you because you decided to research the issue. An informed decision is never wrong. You didn't bury your head in the sand or take a doctors word.
I once had someone tell me they didn't want to do the research because then they couldn't vaccinate their children. I thought that was so sad. Being a parent isn't an easy job and we often times have to do things we don't like. But we do it because our children mean the world to us. So you step outside your comfort zone and do what you need to.

Boy, I don't know what to say to this.

Maybe other than the fact that those bogus conspiracy theory anti-vaccine Web sites have really done a good job.

 

[maymom96]

I'm not surprised to see these statements. It's a common refrain from the anti-vaccine people.

As is the belief that vaccines are wonderful and have saved the world from people who are provaccine. But everything I have found points to the fact that the diseases were on the decline before vaccines were introduced into society.
Zinc, diarrhea, and pneumonia (editorial)", The Journal of Pediatrics, December 1999, Vol. 135, No. 6, p. 663 states: "...The largest historical decrease in morbidity and mortality caused by infectious disease was experienced not with the modern antibiotic and vaccine era, but after the introduction of clean water and effective sewer systems."
http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/vaccine_awareness/vaccination_inefficacy.html has graphs to prove that the diseases were on the decline before the vaccines were used.
But no matter what your stand on the issue is, you will be able to find studies to back up your claims and dismiss the other sides studies. I could produce several studies and links to prove my side. But someone will find another study to prove me wrong.
BTW, when I defend my beliefs, I often tell people to go to the CDC website. In one of my posts, I used information from the CDC. The CDC can be a very helpful tool for people who are against vaccines.

 

[Minniemouse07]

You stated:


I gave you a link to one of many studies done on this subject. I made no comment on if that, or any of the other, studies support/dis-proves any thories you have.

I just dislike absolute statements that I know not to be true.

I personally feel that vacines have been studied to death and that research money and time are being wasted on them based on hysteria.

But I have no dog in the fight and I'm only interested in the tatics people use to try to prove their points.

Andy

The study you quoted looked only at MMR (a combination vaccine)... not multiple vaccines given at the same time (ie as in Polio in one leg, DTaP in the other, HiB in one arm and Prevnar in the other). And that study specifically looked at MMR and autism rates...not even at the safety of giving MMR together vs splitting it into three different and separate shots.

So I will restate again... there has never been a (published) study done that looks at the safety of receiving multiple vaccines on the same day other than the recent info regarding the combination vaccine of MMR+Varicela.

 

[maymom96]

Maybe other than the fact that those bogus conspiracy theory anti-vaccine Web sites have really done a good job.

Let me ask you this. If what you say is true, what is to gain from these websites being out there? It isn't money gained because they aren't selling anything. Is it a game that several sick people came up trying to see how many people fall for it?
If that's the case, then why do chiropractors fall for the belief? It can't be because they aren't educated. After all, chiropractors attend 4485 hours of education while the average medical doctor attends 4250 hours of education.
Let's look at why vaccinations are encouraged. "Vaccines are big business for revenues from vaccines and total more than $1 billion in the U.S., and 3 billion worldwide. This figure will increase in the next few years. To ensure continuing profits, vaccine manufacturers conduct their own research, pay for ad campaigns encouraging parents to get the shots, and foot the bill for state legislation to mandate each vaccine for every child in America. Drug companies enjoy a guaranteed market for their product, and in many states parents are threatened with imprisonment or removal of their child from their home if they refuse to vaccinate. Doctors employed by drug companies also advise government recommendation panels, and the same physicians who write position papers for the American Academy of Pediatrics are also paid consultants for vaccine manufacturers. Your pediatrician is not allowed to question vaccine utilization. Liability issues, boards of medical examiners and the policies of HMO's govern the doctor’s recommendations. Step outside this set of rules and they risk their jobs or licensing." http://allnaturalhealth.us/june_russell_vaccinations.htm
Just so I can't be told that I only support antivaccine websites:
Vaccines Are Good Business for Drug Makers
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/b...&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=all&position=
OR
Vaccines: Hot 'new' business for drugmakers
Gardasil, Prevnar give once-sluggish industry shot in the arm; business seen doubling by 2010, but no HIV vaccine in sight.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/30/news/companies/vaccine/index.htm

 

[Pennykay]

"For those that want to research NNii is a good start. (http://www.immunizationinfo.org ) They are not funded by the Government or the pharmaceutical companies."


It is hardly a non biased sight.



National Network for Immunization Information

The National Network for Immunization Information is a special project of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Nurses Association.

 

[EMom]

From what I have found, each disease had been virtually eliminated decades before the introduction of the relevant vaccine; through improved hygiene, better nutrition, clean drinking water and improved sanitation and health care.

Virtually eliminated? Tell that to all the kids in iron lungs shortly before the introduction of the polio vaccine. Have you ever seen the photos or films of hospital wards FULL of children in them? It's a heartstopping sight.

I don't know what age you are, but I remember people not that much older than me who had shriveled legs due to polio. Yet we had decent hygiene and nutrition, clean drinking water and our levels of sanitation and health care were the norm as well. My mother was thrilled when the polio immunization became available, because her younger children would be safe from what her older children had not. It was interesting to be the child of a mother who had children over an 18 year period because of the insight she could give on many issues, immunizations being one of them.

With her older children, she lived through the years of few immunizations being available. Some diseases, if caught, probably wouldn't be too serious, although she knew there were risks of complications. (Yes, she even knew children who died from rotovirus!) But some of those diseases were very dangerous and the odds of something terrible happening to your child were high. You crossed your fingers and held your breath for years, so to speak. None of us know what it is like to live like that, and we have vaccines to thank for it.

And once the vaccines came along, she didn't have to live like that either. Having lived through epidemics as a child and having seen other children die, then having to raise her first children with few vaccines available knowing they were at great risk of catching dangerous/deadly diseases, she could not get us to the doctor fast enough.

She lived BOTH lives. She parented BOTH lives. With and without vaccines. And she lived the life of "none or few vaccines" not out of choice when she had benefit of riding on others' herd immunity, but when there was no choice and there was no herd immunity to take advantage of. I'll take the wisdom of a mother who has BTDT over a conspiracy theory website any day of the week. To say that these diseases had been "virtually eliminated" before vaccines were introduced is on par with saying the world is flat.

 

[Leonsmom]

These are the quotes I find offensive and inflammatory. There's not a word about the amount, the dose or the effects -just statement after statement designed to be read by someone who will then think "Oh, My God! Who in their right mind would do this to a helpless child?"

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I will continue to think that it is a disgusting and vile attempt to hoodwink people.

Okay so a microscopic amount is okay but a gallon isn't??? Huh!
I am sorry but the amount, dose, or effects wouldn't change my reaction to those ingrediants. Seriously, those ingrediants are scarey!! And they are FACTUAL. They scared me enough to look in to it .... I made my desicion for my child based on what I found. For some people the list of ingrediants alone is enough to turn them off to vax. Some people need more than that. For others the idea of outbreaks due to not enough people getting vax is enough to be pro vax. Bottom line everyone has to make the decision for themselves.
And no matter the decision - it's always a scary thing. No one truely knows what is the right choice. This is where faith and strong beliefs come into play. Do you, without a doubt, know that vaccines are not harmful, no, how could you, you believe it though. Same for the other side, do they know that vaccines will harm them for sure. No, but they believe there may be a chance, and don't want to take their chances.
People need to have faith in there decisions ...that is why we two or more very strongly opposed sides to this.

 

[Leonsmom]

Two years ago when a possible measles outbreak happened in our area, I was going to get my sons titer levels checked. I had a friend who was in the medical profession who was going to request the lab work. The health department in my area said that they would refuse to accept the report with the titer levels. I asked why and they said they just wouldn't. So I never had the blood work done. BTW, it was just a virus going around and not measles.
I will say this. Anyone can doctor a vaccination card to make it look like a child is current on shots. Until some other type of system is in place, a card with dates next to a vaccination means nothing IMO.

My son is doing a second titer now because the school/camp will take it but they want a fresh check each year.....

 

[Leonsmom]

If you've truly done your research, how can you say this?

Everyone knows vaccines aren't 100 percent effective. No one ever claims they are. People who don't vaccinate are weakening the herd immunity that keeps ALL of us safe. Why is this such a difficult concept? Medical exceptions should be the standard. Not made-up other exceptions.

I'm glad you shared that your children weren't allowed in school with no vaccinations once an outbreak occurred.

Something for parents to consider....your child will have to be kept home for possibly months if you don't vaccinate.

Is it me or did you just contradict yourself??
In one sentence you say EVERYONE knows Vaccine's are not 100 percent effective. And in the next you say they keep ALL of us SAFE.

I will agree you want to keep an unvaccinated child out of school for the sake of the unvaccinated child. Parents who have chosen this route, choose it because they believe it is the safer choice.....so why would there be any concern for them if a real (as opposed to a scare of one) outbreak occurs and there children are out of school and kept out of harms way? And knowing that vax are not 100 percent effective (or safe) it is a shame that vax kids are not put under the same precaution.

 

[Leonsmom]

I'm not understanding. You think that the diseases just went away by themselves? You don't think that it was the immunizations that eradicated them??

As someone who hasn't done a ton of research - can someone tell me which diseases have been completely eraticated from this earth? It would help me, help my sister figure out a few things with her decision about vaxing her 2 month old.

 

[JacobsMommy11002]

I can't believe this is still going on. All this back and forth. Neither of the two groups are going to sway people to their side. You've all made your points, let it go! Its gone from polite to starting to get not so nice...

 

[jodifla]

As someone who hasn't done a ton of research - can someone tell me which diseases have been completely eraticated from this earth? It would help me, help my sister figure out a few things with her decision about vaxing her 2 month old.

Smallpox has been eradicated DUE TO VACCINES!

Polio has almost been eradicated.

 

[EMom]

The concept of herd immunity must be too difficult to comprehend, so let's do a 101.

You have a vaccine for XYZ that is 90% effective. You manage to get 100% of the population vaccinated for XYZ. Even with only 90% effectiveness, all 100% are protected so long as XYZ is not introduced to the population. And how could XYZ ever be introduced to the population? Ding, ding ding! By an unvaccinated individual!

Mr. Infected Unvax comes along, and some of that vulnerable 10% of the XYZ vaccinated will get XYZ anyway. Of course, the children too young for the shot will also be vulnerable. Had the youngest ones stayed "in the herd" of 100% vaccinated population, they would not have been at risk. But the herd was compromised by an unvaccinated individual and all bets were off.

Somehow, some way a unvaccinated individual gets the ball rolling every time. They open the door to the disease spreading. Herd immunity works best when the herd has the highest percentage of compliance. The lower the compliance rate, the lower the effectiveness of herd immunity. Simple as. It's just not that hard a concept.

 

[RhodyJim]

If that's the case, then why do chiropractors fall for the belief? It can't be because they aren't educated. After all, chiropractors attend 4485 hours of education while the average medical doctor attends 4250 hours of education.

Did you really just compare a chiropractor's education to a medical doctor's? A licensed chiropractor must go through 4200+ hours of combined training and education (schooling and hands on). And, it doesn't (for the most part) require an undergraduate degree. An MD must go through 8 years of schooling (undergrad and medical school), which amounts to at least 3600 hours of class time. Then, just for basic training they must be an intern/resident for two years. Current recommendations are that they can work no more than 80 hours per week (it used to be common for 100+) which equates to 8000 hours of hands on training. Although most areas of medicine require 3-5 years of residency (12000-20000).

The 4250 hours is roughly equivavlent to the minimum education and training to become a CPA, although most states require more than that. CPAs also require significantly more continuing education to keep your licence.

 

[RhodyJim]

Okay so a microscopic amount is okay but a gallon isn't??? Huh!

Yes, this is exactly how the world works. Everything is bad when you have too much of it. A glass of water is good. 4000 gallons of water is drowning. You are exposed to all of the things in the vaccine every single day of your life, it is all a matter of amount.

 

[Anjelica]

To the original OP I recommend vaccines. I'm not a doctor, scientist, chiropractor or even a person who has been effected by autism, but just a mother. There were times when good hygiene and nutrition had its believers and non-believers but society as a whole has been better with good hygiene and nutrition. I'm sorry to all those out there that may get offended but I believe society as a whole is better for a majority of the vaccinations out there.

And I forgot to add to those who do not get vaccinations and plan on sending your child to school (your choice, whatever, etc.) but just be forewarned that some states now do not even allow the "religious excuse" for not getting vaccinations. Like I said - honestly doesn't bug me if you don't want to get your child vaccinated but just giving a heads up incase you have to look at alternative options other than public schools.

 

[Minniemouse07]

The concept of herd immunity must be too difficult to comprehend, so let's do a 101.

You have a vaccine for XYZ that is 90% effective. You manage to get 100% of the population vaccinated for XYZ. Even with only 90% effectiveness, all 100% are protected so long as XYZ is not introduced to the population. And how could XYZ ever be introduced to the population? Ding, ding ding! By an unvaccinated individual!

Mr. Infected Unvax comes along, and some of that vulnerable 10% of the XYZ vaccinated will get XYZ anyway. Of course, the children too young for the shot will also be vulnerable. Had the youngest ones stayed "in the herd" of 100% vaccinated population, they would not have been at risk. But the herd was compromised by an unvaccinated individual and all bets were off.

Somehow, some way a unvaccinated individual gets the ball rolling every time. They open the door to the disease spreading. Herd immunity works best when the herd has the highest percentage of compliance. The lower the compliance rate, the lower the effectiveness of herd immunity. Simple as. It's just not that hard a concept.

I will repeat this AGAIN... the majority of incidences of people getting sick from vaccine preventable illnesses are in the VACCINATED population. NOT, in the unvaccinated population. :banghead: (do we have a bang head smilie? If not we definitely need one!)

This is reiterated over and over whenever you hear about an "outbreak." They call for everyone to make sure they are vaccinated but the people who are actually catching and spreading the disease are VACCINATED.

Hence the chicken pox outbreak in the school district on one side of us this past year...all the kids had been vaccinated. The pertussis outbreak in the district on the other side... all the kids had been vaccinated. Neither "outbreak" had even ONE non-vaccinated child become ill.

One of the reasons for this is that once a population is vaccinated for a specific strain of a disease (say Hib or pertussis) the prevalent strain often mutates into another version that is no longer "protected" by the vaccine. There are a few studies out there regarding this topic in regard to the HiB vaccine and two different doctors (dd's ped and my general practitioner) told me that they suspected this is the case w/ pertussis because they were seeing more and more of it (discussions w/ the drs was because dd caught pertussis despite being fully vaxed against it).

Non-vaccinated children are NOT "typhoid marys." They are not walking around infecting everyone in their wake.

Many times in the case of chicken pox or measles... the disease is actually conferred by a recently vaccinated individual since these are "live" vaccines and can be shed by the newly vaccinated!

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

The concept of herd immunity must be too difficult to comprehend, so let's do a 101.

You have a vaccine for XYZ that is 90% effective. You manage to get 100% of the population vaccinated for XYZ. Even with only 90% effectiveness, all 100% are protected so long as XYZ is not introduced to the population. And how could XYZ ever be introduced to the population? Ding, ding ding! By an unvaccinated individual!

Mr. Infected Unvax comes along, and some of that vulnerable 10% of the XYZ vaccinated will get XYZ anyway. Of course, the children too young for the shot will also be vulnerable. Had the youngest ones stayed "in the herd" of 100% vaccinated population, they would not have been at risk. But the herd was compromised by an unvaccinated individual and all bets were off.

Somehow, some way a unvaccinated individual gets the ball rolling every time. They open the door to the disease spreading. Herd immunity works best when the herd has the highest percentage of compliance. The lower the compliance rate, the lower the effectiveness of herd immunity. Simple as. It's just not that hard a concept.

you will NEVER get 100% compliance, for a number of reasons. Question is can we even get "close enough" for herd immunity????......probably not.

Also, it isn't always the unvaxed that introduces it - it is also likely be the vaxed: prior to the new booster for whooping cough the outbreaks were just as likely to be in vaxed populations and adults were allowed to be carriers. Also, some vaccines "shed" virus for a period after administered. ETC...etc...

I have posted this before, we can't even manage to reach the children in this country whose parents are not opposed to vaccines. If "herd immunity" is so crucial, you would think our government and the drug manufacturers would do something about it...fact is , they don't even take "herd immunity" that seriously.

the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20164131/wid/11915773?GT1=10252

ETA: you're info is not only wrong - but your tone is terribly condescending , which I find unnecessary. Let's at least keep this civil. Thank you!

 

[RhodyJim]

IPV = Intravenous Polio Vaccine
OPV=Oral Polio Vaccine

Yeah, from this chart it looks like polio was almost entirely eradicated before the vaccine. Oh wait, no it wasn't, I must have been looking at it upside down.

 

[Minniemouse07]

To the original OP I recommend vaccines. I'm not a doctor, scientist, chiropractor or even a person who has been effected by autism, but just a mother. There were times when good hygiene and nutrition had its believers and non-believers but society as a whole has been better with good hygiene and nutrition. I'm sorry to all those out there that may get offended but I believe society as a whole is better for a majority of the vaccinations out there.

And I forgot to add to those who do not get vaccinations and plan on sending your child to school (your choice, whatever, etc.) but just be forewarned that some states now do not even allow the "religious excuse" for not getting vaccinations. Like I said - honestly doesn't bug me if you don't want to get your child vaccinated but just giving a heads up incase you have to look at alternative options other than public schools.

There are two states that do not have a religious exemption... Mississippi and West Virginia and to my recollection, they never did have it.

Every other state has a religious exemption, EVERY state has a medical exemption and about 20 or so states have a philosophical exemption.