OT: ease my mind about immunizations!

[Minniemouse07]

I posted at the beginning (and middle) of this one and I answered the question on the other. The problem isn't the threads, it's the argument between a few posters who are not helping anyone, they are one-upping each other.

I know I'm not the only one who is finding some of the posts way over the top.

I've actually been thinking how very respectful this entire thread has been. Conversations revolving around issues w/ wildly diverging opinions generally get very nasty really quick .. and this one hasn't gone there at all!

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I've actually been thinking how very respectful this entire thread has been. Conversations revolving around issues w/ wildly diverging opinions generally get very nasty really quick .. and this one hasn't gone there at all!

I thought so too!

I have been involved in much worse!!!

 

[DVCLiz]

I will repeat this AGAIN... the majority of incidences of people getting sick from vaccine preventable illnesses are in the VACCINATED population. NOT, in the unvaccinated population. :banghead: (do we have a bang head smilie? If not we definitely need one!)

This is reiterated over and over whenever you hear about an "outbreak." They call for everyone to make sure they are vaccinated but the people who are actually catching and spreading the disease are VACCINATED.

Hence the chicken pox outbreak in the school district on one side of us this past year...all the kids had been vaccinated. The pertussis outbreak in the district on the other side... all the kids had been vaccinated. Neither "outbreak" had even ONE non-vaccinated child become ill.

One of the reasons for this is that once a population is vaccinated for a specific strain of a disease (say Hib or pertussis) the prevalent strain often mutates into another version that is no longer "protected" by the vaccine. There are a few studies out there regarding this topic in regard to the HiB vaccine and two different doctors (dd's ped and my general practitioner) told me that they suspected this is the case w/ pertussis because they were seeing more and more of it (discussions w/ the drs was because dd caught pertussis despite being fully vaxed against it).

Non-vaccinated children are NOT "typhoid marys." They are not walking around infecting everyone in their wake.

Many times in the case of chicken pox or measles... the disease is actually conferred by a recently vaccinated individual since these are "live" vaccines and can be shed by the newly vaccinated!

This is not at all true for the current outbreak of measles in Austria. It's the kids at the private school, where the vaccine rate was almost "nil", who originally caught measles. I'll be interested - and since this is a real-time example I think they will continue to follow it in the general media - to see how many people end up catching it and how many were/were not vaccinated.

But it's absolutely false to continue to say that the unvaccinated people aren't catching the disease. In that news story I quoted the information was that almost 100% of the unvaccinated people would catch the disease.

 

[LanaJae]

that is usually how these discussions go........if you do not care for the discussion, you can avoid it. If you think someone is violating TOS - you can report them.

The first few pages have information and suggestions and are non-confrontational.

The discussion is great, a few people wanting to fight and argue is not. Someone with concerns and needing the information now for their children is not about to step into this thread now.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

The first few pages have information and suggestions and are non-confrontational.

The discussion is great, a few people wanting to fight and argue is not. Someone with concerns and needing the information now for their children is not about to step into this thread now.

again, I don't see fighting or anyone being "offensive".

Again, you can choose to avoid the thread and/or report anything you feel is inappropriate to the moderators. You have said yourself that you you have commented a few times - it hasn't effected change and it seems you are subjecting yourself to unnecessary aggravation. Again, not being snarky...just stating fact and wondering why you continue to read a thread that is bothering so much? You may not care to take part, but others do.

 

[girlegirl7101]

gosh i am enjoying this thread! I just wanted to state i have decided to vax my kids. I did decline my baby from the rota one, just cause its so new.

 

[LanaJae]

again, I don't see fighting or anyone being "offensive".

Again, you can choose to avoid the thread and/or report anything you feel is inappropriate to the moderators. You have said yourself that you you have commented a few times - it hasn't effected change and it seems you are subjecting yourself to unnecessary aggravation. Again, not being snarky...just stating fact and wondering why you continue to read a thread that is bothering so much? You may not care to take part, but others do.

I have never reported anything and don't plan to, but there are posts scattered through this discussion that said the same thing I did, mine was the only one commented on.

I am very interested in this subject and I enjoy the discussion and the information. I'm not going to point out who is going a little nuts here, but it's fairly obvious (and definitely not your posts).

I have a victory for both sides - I have vaccinated children, yet I am now questioning some of the vaccinations they had because of immune and antibody problems I developed. I'm concerned about their future. It is possible that antibodies in vaccinations triggered some of my problems later in life and I don't want my children to go through what I am living with. My family history didn't reveal any connection. A logical place to look is things that alter antibodies, so that's where I'm at - it could be vaccinations, it could be environmental, it could be processed food, it could be antibiotics in meat, or it could be just rotten luck. If vaccinations can trigger diseases in some groups, I want to know more about that. I've never believed that the MMR caused autism, but I do believe that it can either be a trigger or could possibly make it more profound in some children. Like many other parents, I'm in the middle of both ends and reading about other people's experiences (rather than pasted stats) helps me in my quest for information. I want my children to be protected, but I don't want to cause them any future problems that I might be able to help prevent. If that involves delaying vaccinations or skipping certain ones altogether, hearing from others helps me make that decision.

 

[Minniemouse07]

If vaccinations can trigger diseases in some groups, I want to know more about that. I've never believed that the MMR caused autism, but I do believe that it can either be a trigger or could possibly make it more profound in some children. Like many other parents, I'm in the middle of both ends and reading about other people's experiences (rather than pasted stats) helps me in my quest for information. I want my children to be protected, but I don't want to cause them any future problems that I might be able to help prevent. If that involves delaying vaccinations or skipping certain ones altogether, hearing from others helps me make that decision.

A similar thing started me down my path of researching and gathering info. Everyone in my husband's maternal family has a gut disease (him, brother, mother, grandfather, etc.) in some form (colitis, crohn's & colon cancer) and on my side we are lousy with other autoimmune issues (severe allergies, asthma, thyroid, colitis/crohn's).

I just started in small spurts, but really started thinking about it when I was pregnant w/ our first (dd). We ended up selectively vaxing her. I looked at everything carefully and really weighed it all. I guess the biggie was finding an old (1970's) study looking at adults who were kids before the MMR shot was introduced and thus never got it. Those that contracted measles and mumps within a year of each other had a very significantly higher rate of gut diseases than those that didn't have those diseases at all (and not exposed to the vaccines).

It really made me question the wisdom of giving my child...the one w/ the horrid history of gut diseases on both sides of the family... the antibodies (and this has nothing to do w/ the vaccine's additives, etc) that may tip the scales and cause her to have these same issues?

Do I know that if I do give my children MMR that they will have gut diseases? Nope! Do I know that if I don't that they won't get them? Nope!

But I did a ton of research and there is enough of a correlation for me to avoid these vaccines for my family. That is really all you can do. It isn't a one size fits all situation. There are different family histories and different situations for each child.

I have found great resources in some of the books mentioned in this thread, as well as the very pro vaccination book by Paul Offit (can't remember the name, he's written a few but if you look on amazon it will be easy to find). It helps immensely (for me at least) to read both sides of the issue and pull what makes the most sense from them.

There is NO ONE writing on the topic of vaccinations that is completely unbiased. Everyone has an opinion and the information that they provide will be clouded by it. The only truely unbiased person is you. You are the one w/ the biggest stake in it all (they are your kids after all) and you are the one that will weigh all the facts and circumstances to come up with what works for your family.

Good Luck!

 

[LanaJae]

Good Luck!

Thanks! It sure is frustrating. What scares me lately is that immune/antibody/autoimmune disease keep escalating. I have been trying to read as much as can.

I know this thread was originally about the MMR, but one thing that stuck out for me was the discussion on the chicken pox vaccine and pregnancy. My older two kids had chicken pox and my younger two were vaccinated. I am tempted to want to expose my younger two kids to a full-fledge case of chicken pox because the vaccine doesn't prevent it, it seems to still allow a mild case. I don't want my younger daughter to be exposed when she is an adult and possibly pregnant. If I could find someone to expose them to, I'd still have to leave the house because of my immune system now. I still never found any source that could sell me on the great benefits of that vaccine. I didn't have to worry when I was pregnant because I already had it - to argue in favor of the vaccine because of pregnancy doesn't make sense to me either because we don't know what the future will bring, it's too new still.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I have never reported anything and don't plan to, but there are posts scattered through this discussion that said the same thing I did, mine was the only one commented on.

I am very interested in this subject and I enjoy the discussion and the information. I'm not going to point out who is going a little nuts here, but it's fairly obvious (and definitely not your posts).

I have a victory for both sides - I have vaccinated children, yet I am now questioning some of the vaccinations they had because of immune and antibody problems I developed. I'm concerned about their future. It is possible that antibodies in vaccinations triggered some of my problems later in life and I don't want my children to go through what I am living with. My family history didn't reveal any connection. A logical place to look is things that alter antibodies, so that's where I'm at - it could be vaccinations, it could be environmental, it could be processed food, it could be antibiotics in meat, or it could be just rotten luck. If vaccinations can trigger diseases in some groups, I want to know more about that. I've never believed that the MMR caused autism, but I do believe that it can either be a trigger or could possibly make it more profound in some children. Like many other parents, I'm in the middle of both ends and reading about other people's experiences (rather than pasted stats) helps me in my quest for information. I want my children to be protected, but I don't want to cause them any future problems that I might be able to help prevent. If that involves delaying vaccinations or skipping certain ones altogether, hearing from others helps me make that decision.

ok, fair enough. It just seemed to be bothering you and I couldn't understand your returning. ALso it didn't seem fair - it seemed you wanted the discussion closed while others were still interested in participating.

I appreciate that you are able to read and take from both sides...many see it as black and white!

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Thanks! It sure is frustrating. What scares me lately is that immune/antibody/autoimmune disease keep escalating. I have been trying to read as much as can.

I know this thread was originally about the MMR, but one thing that stuck out for me was the discussion on the chicken pox vaccine and pregnancy. My older two kids had chicken pox and my younger two were vaccinated. I am tempted to want to expose my younger two kids to a full-fledge case of chicken pox because the vaccine doesn't prevent it, it seems to still allow a mild case. I don't want my younger daughter to be exposed when she is an adult and possibly pregnant. If I could find someone to expose them to, I'd still have to leave the house because of my immune system now. I still never found any source that could sell me on the great benefits of that vaccine. I didn't have to worry when I was pregnant because I already had it - to argue in favor of the vaccine because of pregnancy doesn't make sense to me either because we don't know what the future will bring, it's too new still.

I also have an autoimmune disease and I worry about the rise in these diseases! I have a feeling in years to come, we will learn the truth about the link between vaccines and auto-immune disease.

I would love to have DD exposed to Chicken pox and get it over with. Sadly, she is getting to the age where we may have to make a hard decision....I would much prefer natural immunity!

 

[LanaJae]

ok, fair enough. It just semd to be bothering you and I couldn't understand your returning. ALso it didn't seem fair - it seemed you wanted the discussion closed while others were still interested in participating.

I appreciate that you are able to read and take from both sides...many see it as black and white!

No, sorry, I didn't mean it to be taken like that. The discussion is fantastic - a few people fighting between themselves was my issue. I like heated debate, there was just some stuff that was headed in another direction because each had already made their point over and over and over (and all that was left was getting personal and picking apart words).

I really wish this was black and white, it sure would make decisions easier! I've just been around too long and have seen black go to white and vice versa. Vaccines were easy when I was a kid, we lined up in the gym and tried not to cry in front of our friends. I doubt my parents even saw a piece of literature on any vaccine back then, or cared to.

 

[LanaJae]

I also have an autoimmune disease and I worry about the rise in these diseases! I have a feeling in years to come, we will learn the truth about the link between vaccines and auto-immune disease.

I would love to have DD exposed to Chicken pox and get it over with. Sadly, she is getting to the age where we may have to make a hard decision....I would much prefer natural immunity!

When my 20 year old was little, the daycare providers would call each other when they had a child with chicken pox, and if it was a good time, the moms would get together to have their kids play. Now people freak out like it's the plague. I have married neighbors who are doctors and they've attended many conference on it both before and after it was introduced and said it was always called a convenience vaccination because working parents didn't have to take a full week off from work to stay home with their child. I know that's extreme, but I get where they are coming from.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

When my 20 year old was little, the daycare providers would call each other when they had a child with chicken pox, and if it was a good time, the moms would get together to have their kids play. Now people freak out like it's the plague. I have married neighbors who are doctors and they've attended many conference on it both before and after it was introduced and said it was always called a convenience vaccination because working parents didn't have to take a full week off from work to stay home with their child. I know that's extreme, but I get where they are coming from.

no - you are actually right on! A recent article in the paper admitted this- and it is true. It is more about keeping parents at work and kids in school. Not that there is anything wrong with that - if it is the individuals choice. For me personally, it isn't enough!

and I know what you mean about freaking out. So many people make it sound so terrible that my child not be vaccinated for CP - like an "we're all gonna die" attitude. I remember the day I came home with them - my mom was not freaked out or panicking - it was just concern that I needed to get in my PJs and take it easy. (plus I threw her a curve ball!!!! I told we had gone to the zoo that day - she was trying to figure how she didn't know anything about a filed trip when she noticed the spots!!!! I must have been delirious!!!! - I was never a big liar or storyteller! )

 

[mefordis]

Please do your research before getting the shots. You can delay them until you have done thorough research and come to a decision you can feel at peace with.

I recommend The Vaccine Book by Dr. Robert W. Sears. He takes each vaccination and tells it like it is: What's in the vaccination, describes each illness and tells whether it is a serious illness (you would be suprised how benign some of these illnesses are - I myself had measles, mumps and chicken pox as a child). It's not a pro or anti vaccination book. It just states the facts and lets you make up your mind based on them.

Get the book - I got mine on Amazon.

 

[Nicoleclaw]

[/I]


What about if your "selectively vaccinated" child with whooping cough exposed my newborn to the virus. Though he was "healthy and hygienic," as you stated kids must be to not get any illnesses , he still would have an underdeveloped immune system, and would most like get secondary infections with severe complications. Don't play Russian roulette with MY child. So when your child develops polio, measles, mumps, etc., please stay far away.

That was EXACTLY what I was thinking! Thank you for saying it!! I am very surprised your day care allowed your child to attend.

ETA: The first comment is not directed to the woman with the child who had whooping cough. Just in general to people who do not vaccinate....but I am asking the woman with the child with whooping cough how the day care allowed that. It is right in our handbook that they can not come back until it is gone.

 

[mefordis]

25 adults that were born normal was enough for me. If my child was born normal and then got her first shots at age 5, right before school. Goes to sleep. You wake in the middle of the night to something crashing in your child's room. She is havuing a seizure. She is rushed to the ER ..by this time she is unconscious. She is in a coma. When she does finally wake (2 days later) she cannot speak. She does not understand you. After many tests you are told she will never be normal again. She has the mentality of a 8 month old child. Is this normal. Of course not. Is it rare. ABSOLUTELY. But it is a true story of one of the women that I took care of. This is probably a 1 out of a million cases. But what if your child was the one? Would you say oh well it is so rare. Of course not. Would you think it was a freak of nature? Would you blame the vaccine? Yes

Wow. That description of the girl sounds just like someone my sister (who is a nurse) was telling me about recently. Chicken pox shot, seizure, now brain damaged. At 5 years old.

 

[mefordis]

In all fairness...this statistic on its own doesn't tell the whole story. We really need to know more about which people died (what countries) and if they died of complications, or if they died because of inadequate health care, or what.

That sounds more cold that I meant it too, but statistics can say pretty much anything you want them to, if you don't look at the whole picture.

Inside the story above, you see that all of those infected are recovering.

In Dr. Sear's Vaccination Book, he states that in the US we have about 50-100 cases per year. Probably more than that but they go un diagnosed. Usually not serious. Most cases, especially in children, pass in a week or so without trouble. 1 in 1000 cases is fatal. Now that measles is rare, many years go by without any fatalities. Possible complication sfrom measles are very similar to the side effects of the vaccines themselves.

 

[Nicoleclaw]

Wanted to add, I don't LOVE vaccines. Don't love the uncertainty of them regarding reactions, or getting a ton at a time. However I do not have a medical degree, so I believe my dr knows more than I do about the subject. DD is allergic to eggs, so we did do the titer for mmr and pox (since we were drawing blood already). She is immune to both from her previous shots (before egg allergy diagnosis). She also does not get the flu shot due to the egg allergy. DS is currently up to date on all shots.

 

[mefordis]

That was EXACTLY what I was thinking! Thank you for saying it!! I am very surprised your day care allowed your child to attend.

ETA: The first comment is not directed to the woman with the child who had whooping cough. Just in general to people who do not vaccinate....but I am asking the woman with the child with whooping cough how the day care allowed that. It is right in our handbook that they can not come back until it is gone.

I'm reading something very interesting about Pertussis (whooping cough) in my Dr. Sears Vaccination Book (I'm loving this book! Just got it today.)

To paraphrase: Pertussis is so common because when teens and adults get infected, they don't necessarily have such severe coughing fits as children do. Their coughs might look like bronchitis, so they tend to go longer without treatment and spread the disease around for several weeks. Since most adults lose their pertussis immunity (childhood shots wear off), they are an endless breeding ground for this illness. For that reason, pertussis will probably never be eradicated from teh world the way some other diseases have been.

Petussis is serious within the first 6 mos of life, with a 1% fatality rate in that age group. Beyond 6 mos of age, fatalities from pertussis are almost unheard of, so it isn't considered a serious disease in older infants, children and adults.

Most of the infant deaths occur in infants too young to be vaccinated.