OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[sam_gordon]

I am in favor of getting rid of the statues that are of people connected to slavery.

So take down all the Washington & Jefferson statues?

 

[DeniseJH]

Four year olds are not racists, it’s something that is learned. You realized your dad was wrong, because the rest of society didn’t feel the same way. However, 100 years ago, when there were separate schools, sections of the bus, and different laws for African Americans, kids grew up thinking that black people were inferior, because that’s what they lived.

I’m in my 50’s, and grew is in a very white town. I remember being around 5, and I said the N word in front of my dad (must’ve heard it at school). He was furious! He told me that only ignorant people used that word, and that I should never say it again. However, I had friends with racists parents (old school Italian), and it took them longer to realize their parents were wrong, but they did.

No, of course I don't believe that 4 year olds are racist - it was a story. I did say "Were there other forces that influenced me way back then? I don't know, maybe." Although at 4 I don't know what I may have picked up from society. I wasn't watching the evening news, or chatting over coffee with my friends. But who knows?

 

[DeniseJH]

So take down all the Washington & Jefferson statues?

I have answered this question from you already, and my reply is the same: I'd be fine with it. Although I guess they could always rename the Washington Monument.

 

[sam_gordon]

I have answered this question from you already, and my reply is the same: I'd be fine with it. Although I guess they could always rename the Washington Monument.

I know it sounds like I'm harping on it, but the reason is it is strange to me to condemn something that was done so long ago that not only was it allowed back then, it was even encouraged. Was it "wrong"? Yes. Was it knowingly wrong at the time? Although I'm sure some people at the time thought so, it was FAR from a majority.

 

[Hikergirl]

So take down all the Washington & Jefferson statues?

Of course, apparently they did nothing that they should be honored for.

 

[Klayfish]

The difference between Germany and the US South is that Germany doesn't still have monuments to Nazis while the South is holding on to their Confederate monuments. I totally agree that you can't and shouldn't bury an ugly history (acknowledge it and learn from it), but it also shouldn't be glorified.

Why are you isolating the south? I live in the south now, but spent almost my entire life in the northeast, so I'm not a native "Southerner". The visible difference with the south is the confederate flags that fly, simply because the confederate was...well...the south. Ever go to places like central PA, WV, the Dakotas, etc....? I'd argue they have more "racist" beliefs than some areas of the south. Atlanta is actually a very progressive city from that perspective (at least from what I know of it, haven't studied it too deep).

 

[DeniseJH]

Of course, apparently they did nothing that they should be honored for.

I guess you have to weigh the bad and the good. Should Jefferson be honored with memorials, knowing that he not only kept slaves, but raped them? Not to me. Just my opinion.

 

[Hikergirl]

I guess you have to weigh the bad and the good. Should Jefferson be honored with memorials, knowing that he not only kept slaves, but raped them? Not to me. Just my opinion.

Yes you do have to weigh the good with the bad, in the case of the founders of our country I'll take the good.
I have no problem seeing them being honored with statues for their contribution to the birth of our nation. I don't need to approve of who they were as far as slave owners but that doesn't mean I ignore the good they did.

 

[DeniseJH]

I know it sounds like I'm harping on it, but the reason is it is strange to me to condemn something that was done so long ago that not only was it allowed back then, it was even encouraged. Was it "wrong"? Yes. Was it knowingly wrong at the time? Although I'm sure some people at the time thought so, it was FAR from a majority.

I get it, it's fine.

How about this: because it sends a message to black people, and other people of color, that they don't matter. Yeah, he had slaves, yeah, he raped them, but look...Monticello! Isn't it beautiful! I don't mean that as snarky, just for what it says.

 

[DeniseJH]

Yes you do have to weigh the good with the bad, in the case of the founders of our country I'll take the good.
I have no problem seeing them being honored with statues for their contribution to the birth of our nation. I don't need to approve of who they were as far as slave owners but that doesn't mean I ignore the good they did.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[luvsJack]

I guess you have to weigh the bad and the good. Should Jefferson be honored with memorials, knowing that he not only kept slaves, but raped them? Not to me. Just my opinion.

Ok, we take down the Jefferson memorial. Do we also wipe him out of our history books? How do you discuss someone that was that important to the building of this country and not "honor" them? Not trying to be argumentative, I just don't think its as black and white (I tried to think of another phrase that would fit so I wouldn't sound flippant but couldn't think of one) as you do. I think there is a whole lot of gray.

And remember as we wipe out anyone connected to slavery (which is a whole bunch of people that were important to this country), we need to wipe out anyone that mistreated Native Americans and killed them and stole their land. So we got the ones connected to slavery, the ones that were horrible to the Native Americans, so then lets take the ones that put Japanese Americans in the internment camps. Shall I go on? At what point do we realize that we are wiping out all of our history?

Of course the feelings of black people are important, as is the Native Americans and the Japanese Americans. Being offended by something from history isn't limited to one race.

 

[DeniseJH]

Ok, we take down the Jefferson memorial. Do we also wipe him out of our history books? How do you discuss someone that was that important to the building of this country and not "honor" them? Not trying to be argumentative, I just don't think its as black and white (I tried to think of another phrase that would fit so I wouldn't sound flippant but couldn't think of one) as you do. I think there is a whole lot of gray.

And remember as we wipe out anyone connected to slavery (which is a whole bunch of people that were important to this country), we need to wipe out anyone that mistreated Native Americans and killed them and stole their land. So we got the ones connected to slavery, the ones that were horrible to the Native Americans, so then lets take the ones that put Japanese Americans in the internment camps. Shall I go on? At what point do we realize that we are wiping out all of our history?

Of course the feelings of black people are important, as is the Native Americans and the Japanese Americans. Being offended by something from history isn't limited to one race.

Out of the history books? No, of course not. At least not as long as they are including the part about the slaves. How do you discuss someone that was that important to the building of this country and not "honor" them? By doing exactly that: teaching about them in the schools, but there is no need to glorify them with statues. And yes, there is certainly a lot of gray. There is no way any steps to address this are going to make everyone happy. Impossible.

I don't understand how you believe getting rid of statues is eliminating history. History is what's in the books, that will always be there.

Of course the feelings of Native Americans and Japanese Americans are important - this thread has mostly focused on African Americans, but I have no problem with those type of monuments coming down either.

 

[Moliphino]

Why are you isolating the south? I live in the south now, but spent almost my entire life in the northeast, so I'm not a native "Southerner". The visible difference with the south is the confederate flags that fly, simply because the confederate was...well...the south. Ever go to places like central PA, WV, the Dakotas, etc....? I'd argue they have more "racist" beliefs than some areas of the south. Atlanta is actually a very progressive city from that perspective (at least from what I know of it, haven't studied it too deep).

And the Confederacy lost. Why celebrate traitors who lost a war? I lived in Atlanta for the better part of 4 years (college) and loved it. They still have Stone Mountain with a giant Confederate memorial, though.

 

[Lehuaann]

Out of the history books? No, of course not. At least not as long as they are including the part about the slaves. How do you discuss someone that was that important to the building of this country and not "honor" them? By doing exactly that: teaching about them in the schools, but there is no need to glorify them with statues. And yes, there is certainly a lot of gray. There is no way any steps to address this are going to make everyone happy. Impossible.

I don't understand how you believe getting rid of statues is eliminating history. History is what's in the books, that will always be there.

Of course the feelings of Native Americans and Japanese Americans are important - this thread has mostly focused on African Americans, but I have no problem with those type of monuments coming down either.

Do you really think people will stop at statues? History books are not immune. Bannings and burnings have happened before.

 

[LSUmiss]

There are always going to be problems...there will unfortunately will always be more problems, crimes, atrocities and unspeakable acts.... in some form or another, living in the past, dredging up or digging around in the past, and constantly bring it up, it only creates more problems for today... We have enough on our plates, without adding a portion of the past to it...

There is nothing that can be done about it... its the past.... what we can focus on is today and the future.... History is our past and the story has already been written and the ink has dried... What we can do is write a better story for today.... We are writing our children, grandchildren's and future generation history right now...

It's likes when you are having a discussion with your spouse or significant other, and you constantly bring up things that happened in the past...and keep on re-hashing it over and over, throwing well you did this or that 5 or 10 years ago instead of leaving it in past. When you should be dealing with the real issue or problem at hand right now....

There are all type of injustice's have that happened in the past... since the dawn of creation...and mankind...from when the written word began.... until right now.... The only way to change this is that we learn moving forward on what not what to do...

No it would be more like if he had oppressed & abused me 5 years ago & still continues to do so but in maybe less egregious ways, but just wants me to get over it & move on & act like it didn’t or isn’t happening. AND all the while making me feel like this my fault that we can’t move on b/c I’m still stuck in the past.

I agree the way to change it is to learn from the past. But the first step to truly learning from it is to actually really acknowledge it & not minimize it...or ignore that it still exists.

 

[sam_gordon]

No it would be more like if he had oppressed & abused me 5 years ago & still continues to do so but in maybe less egregious ways, but just wants me to get over it & move on & act like it didn’t or isn’t happening. AND all the while making me feel like this my fault that we can’t move on b/c I’m still stuck in the past.

No, it would be like your husband oppressing you now and you saying "10 years ago, my previous husband did terrible things". Because the fact is the people this happened to 80+ years ago (victims and otherwise) generally aren't going to be the same people today.

 

[LSUmiss]

I hadn't really replied to this thread because I couldn't figure out the right words to use. This is perfect - Ignorance is the right way to describe why my Grandma, who was born in 1926, didn't think she was being racist in the way she spoke about black people. That's all she ever knew growing up and had no one to teach her why that mindset was racist.

Your entire post was fantastic, but I just quoted the reason about ignorance because that was the main part I connected with. Thank you.

Here’s the issue I have with it. My grandma was born in 1919 & did evolve & not use language or say or do things that were no longer socially acceptable (at least in my lifetime). Now, I get that everyone is different. And, although we still have our issues, NOLA has always been a pretty diverse area especially for the south & that’s where she grew up. But, when I hear ppl say ppl didn’t know then so they refuse to change or adapt now, I just can’t buy that, when I know ppl who did. I’m not talking about Kate Smith specifically b/c I don’t know enough about her. I’m talking about comments made on the board. Imo, I think refusal to change b/c that’s how it was in your (general) earlier days is not acceptable & IS racist b/c it comes with an attitude that you (collective) shouldn’t have to change.

 

[LSUmiss]

I can certainly understand the opinion of the statues. I don’t disagree with it completly. I just know that there are some that have been chosen to be removed and perhaps a bit more should have been looked at because that person was t as connected to slavery as say someone else whose statue is not removed. They have been removed based on the side they fought on not what they actually did in their life. And you are right, it’s not going to fill the history lesson void anyway. But it is a sticky subject for Southerners. And I get why. It is the history of the south. No one is proud of slavery or that part of it but when you have so many historic sites that are connected to that period of time, no one wants to see them gone. And I think that is the fear. That it will start with statues and move on the the beautiful homes or other sites.

I have a real problem with some of the voids in history books. I am sure a lot has changed since I took history in school but there are so many things I learned about through fiction. The factory workers from North and South, the internment camps for Americans Asians during WWII from a book by Danielle Steele.

What I know of the Korean and Vietnam wars, my Dad taught me. Actually he taught me a lot of things about history. Just about any historical site he would teach me the the real history. We have a local lake that was built by German POWs. So that lake brought up a lot of discussion about WWII.

With the removal of historical things, it doesn’t always give that opportunity to have those kind of conversations.

Part of my love of New Orleans is the history. To think that things could one day be removed because of the connection to the Civil War or before would be heartbreaking. I learn new things every time I visit, not from museums but from touring the city.

The removal of a statue, a site, a song or a movie could take those lessons away and we just can’t wipe away the history of this great country. Whether we are proud of that particular part of history or not, it’s important to remember.

New Orleans has been here since 1719. Long before the civil war or the US. It is located in the south but for the most part is not a Southern city. Most monuments put up were put up by white supremacists during 1900s long after the civil war was over. They do not represent the diverse city New Orleans has always been. Now, I know there have been some ugly things in our past too (and still are). I’m not naive. And, I don’t think the history should be erased. But, a monument is for honoring like the pp said. And that’s not appropriate here now for sure (if it ever was).

 

[DeniseJH]

Do you really think people will stop at statues? History books are not immune. Bannings and burnings have happened before.

To me that is totally illogical and alarmist. You can not erase history. Every country in the world has books about history. There are museums dedicated to history, again, around the world. And why would anyone want to? That isn't even close to the point of removing the statues. I'm sorry, but that just isn't a good argument.

 

[LSUmiss]

wow 22 pages and the still going on and on , yawn...

so many very valid and interesting points of view countering the poster who must not be named.

Im not going to get yet into another back and forth, but I just wanted to add this bit of information.

Germany, a country which has some VERY questionable history during the 100 years has chosen NOT to wipe that history out. Yes Germans in 2019 are ashamed of their history BUT they say yes it happened and we never want it to happen again.

I used to live in Munich and during my time there I got to know German people from various parts of the country. I had a very interesting conversation with a girl whose family are from Berlin. The Berlin Wall was put up over night at the end of the street where her family lived. She told me her family stories about how heartbreaking it was to live in the city during that time, families torn apart. Now that the wall has gone, its not forgotten. At The Bradenburg Gate , there is a museum and you can buy a piece of the wall. There are many tours in Berlin, where you can walk in their footsteps and hear stories from both sides, East and West.It happened, but instead of hiding it, the Germans want to educate and honour those who died while making sure that another Berlin Wall will never be built again.

The same with the Concentration Camps of World War 2. One is located in a suburb of Munich, called Dachau. Again the Germans are not hiding this horrific time in their history. Like other Concentration Camps, it is open to the public and all the original buildings remain. You can literally walk in their footsteps, from the sleeping quarters to the "showers". Yes I have been there and its not a nice experience. However, Dachau is preserved to educate and honour those who died while making sure those atrocities never happen again.

That’s akin to civil war & other museums here & that’s appropriate. But, are there statues of Hitler in Germany? Never been, but I doubt it. I’m pretty sure I’d heard on a news story before that it’s illegal to fly the swastika flag.