Offended

[Ember]

I'm going to step off topic for just a moment, because something is really bothering me in this thread. Those of us to dislike the practice of being addressed as "Mrs. John Smith" have been casually called "silly" or had a friendly eye roll smily posted in our general direction by a few posters.

While, as I said, I would never humiliate someone on Facebook over a kind gesture, I do not think taking a stand on the language used or caring about it is silly. Words matter. Just ask the people who want to end the use of the word "retard."

Patriarchal naming traditions are sexist. Why should women to be the ones in a marriage to give up their identity and name? Why should women bear the burden of changing their name on all of their legal documents and records? Why should women be compelled to publicly discolose their marital status by means of their title? Why is the family history of the woman, "carrying on the line" less important?

Perhaps the most important evidence that this tradition is not as innocent as it seems to be is to ask men to take a their wife's last name. This option is often viewed with derision and outright contempt. Why? If it truly doesn't matter anymore, if there is no power imbalance, why does it matter whose last name a family uses? Why would men be upset to be called "Mr. Jane HerName?"

My opinion is that if a man is unwilling to take his wife's last name, if he feels it makes him "less if a man" (less of a person), if he feels it would demean him or belittle him, then expecting a woman to take his name means all those same issues apply. It's subtle in a way, not often thought about or dismissed as "silly" as was done here. But it points towards a definite bias, a subtle misogyny the puts women in a postion of being the ones who are "less of a person."

Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just wanted to give a voice to the reason of why I care. This is why it bothers me and why I feel it is a topic worthy of consideration and not just one to be dismissed.

 

[cornflake]

I'm kind of fascinated by the 'I'm my own person with my own identity, address me as Mrs. Myfirstname Hislastname!' thing, especially from that person crash knows on fb.

 

[dakcp2001]

There are a lot of people in this world who make an effort to be offended and you will never please them all. I kept my last name when I got married and I get all kinds of oddly addressed mail. I think some people are making this into a big sexist feminist take a stand type of issue when in fact it was just an envelope. With a card in it. I do think all the fuss is a bit silly. That does not mean I think the issue of how people PREFER to be addressed is silly. This issue has nothing to do with "identity" or how one prefers to be addressed. It has to do with courtesy. Should the op have known the preference of the person they were sending a card to? Probably. Will the world end if one envelope is addressed this way? Probably not. A little courtesy on both sides would have helped. Don't sweat the small stuff! And to post it on Facebook is absurd really.


I also feel obligated to mention I have the opposite problem of the offended party here, I often rip open all the mail with no regard to how it is addressed and have had to shuffle over to my neighbor in shame and apologize for opening their mail by accident. If looks like it says anything close to my name, or sometimes nothing like it, I might just have at it.

 

[epcot.girl]

Do they not wear wedding rings? I don't know, but most (yes not all) married people wear rings which screams.. IM MARRIED!

Like you said, not all people do wear wedding rings. I know a couple of married people who don't.

Is it supposed to be a secret you're married?

It's just nice to have the option to keep such information private (as men do). The marital status of a woman is really nobodies business unless she wishes to make it so. One way to retain ownership of that decision is to use a neutral title. I was really only objecting to the 'silly' comment though. I don't think any less of women who use the 'Miss' or 'Mrs' title, or women who take their partner's name, but several women I have met have responded to me with some hostility when finding out I didn't.

I'm going to step off topic for just a moment, because something is really bothering me in this thread. Those of us to dislike the practice of being addressed as "Mrs. John Smith" have been casually called "silly" or had a friendly eye roll smily posted in our general direction by a few posters.

While, as I said, I would never humiliate someone on Facebook over a kind gesture, I do not think taking a stand on the language used or caring about it is silly. Words matter. Just ask the people who want to end the use of the word "retard."

Patriarchal naming traditions are sexist. Why should women to be the ones in a marriage to give up their identity and name? Why should women bear the burden of changing their name on all of their legal documents and records? Why should women be compelled to publicly discolose their marital status by means of their title? Why is the family history of the woman, "carrying on the line" less important?

Perhaps the most important evidence that this tradition is not as innocent as it seems to be is to ask men to take a their wife's last name. This option is often viewed with derision and outright contempt. Why? If it truly doesn't matter anymore, if there is no power imbalance, why does it matter whose last name a family uses? Why would men be upset to be called "Mr. Jane HerName?"

My opinion is that if a man is unwilling to take his wife's last name, if he feels it makes him "less if a man" (less of a person), if he feels it would demean him or belittle him, then expecting a woman to take his name means all those same issues apply. It's subtle in a way, not often thought about or dismissed as "silly" as was done here. But it points towards a definite bias, a subtle misogyny the puts women in a postion of being the ones who are "less of a person."

Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just wanted to give a voice to the reason of why I care. This is why it bothers me and why I feel it is a topic worthy of consideration and not just one to be dismissed.

Agreed

 

[joviroxx]

Like you said, not all people do wear wedding rings. I know a couple of married people who don't.

:

Just seems odd to me that someone would get married, I guess in a secret ceremony, not wear a ring, use their birth name and want to keep it quiet like its some secret. I'll take your word for it that some women want that right but I still think it's rather odd and don't get the point of it.

If they have kids, do they keep that quiet too? Really, I don't mean to sound combative, I just don't get the logic or reasoning.

 

[epcot.girl]

Just seems odd to me that someone would get married, I guess in a secret ceremony, not wear a ring, use their birth name and want to keep it quiet like its some secret. I'll take your word for it that some women want that right but I still think it's rather odd and don't get the point of it.

If they have kids, do they keep that quiet too? Really, I don't mean to sound combative, I just don't get the logic or reasoning.

You've extrapolated a heck of a lot from what I said. I never said anything about keeping things secret. Wanting to have the same option as men in terms of having a title that doesn't automatically tell the world your marital status =/= keeping it a secret. It's not about secrecy, it's about having the option of privacy. My marriage has nothing to do with anyone else. Likewise, my marital status is nobodies business. I prefer not to automatically give someone my marital status if they need to know my title for some reason (and I have been using 'Ms' for many years now, long before getting married).

I really don't see what's so strange about people just wanting to get married because they love each other and want legal protections and such in place. Not everyone wears jewellery. Not everyone wants to change their name. Not everyone even plans to have kids. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret.

No one is accusing men of secrecy because they don't automatically change their title to a marriage-specific title after the wedding, but if a married woman wants similarly neutral title she gets questioned and her behaviour is considered odd and secretive.

 

[tiffjoy]

You've extrapolated a heck of a lot from what I said. I never said anything about keeping things secret. Wanting to have the same option as men in terms of having a title that doesn't automatically tell the world your marital status =/= keeping it a secret. It's not about secrecy, it's about having the option of privacy. My marriage has nothing to do with anyone else. Likewise, my marital status is nobodies business. I prefer not to automatically give someone my marital status if they need to know my title for some reason (and I have been using 'Ms' for many years now, long before getting married).

I really don't see what's so strange about people just wanting to get married because they love each other and want legal protections and such in place. Not everyone wears jewellery. Not everyone wants to change their name. Not everyone even plans to have kids. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret.

No one is accusing men of secrecy because they don't automatically change their title to a marriage-specific title after the wedding, but if a married woman wants similarly neutral title she gets questioned and her behaviour is considered odd and secretive.

All excellent points.

Really, what does someone else's marriage status have to do with anyone else anyway? My husband and I work together, quite closely, actually. We have customers in several times a month. I chat about "my husband this" or "my husband that" in regards to my personal life. I often don't tell them "my husband" is the guy sitting at the computer writing the code I'm helping them test! It doesn't matter to them. Sometimes we do tell, sometimes we don't. It's our choice because I kept my "maiden" name.

It doesn't mean it's a secret. Our friends and family know we are married. But why do strangers have to know? It's the same way with rings, titles, and name changes. If a woman chooses not to change her name, so? If someone doesn't wear a ring and advertise their marital status, so? As long as they aren't trying to actively trick people for their own benefit (say, trying to pick up a guy), then so what? And I would venture to say that those trying to do ill are going to lie about their name or remove their ring anyway.

 

[Reesecup317]

this may be off subject but i'll ask anyway. If you don't want to adopt your husband's last name do you idea of combining your names and both of you adopting the new name? I read that a lot of couples in England have been doing this.

 

[punkin]

this may be off subject but i'll ask anyway. If you don't want to adopt your husband's last name do you idea of combining your names and both of you adopting the new name? I read that a lot of couples in England have been doing this.

People do this here in the US too. It was a free option 20 some odd years ago on my NY State marriage license.

The problem as I see it is that neither party here is being thoughtful. The OP who sent the card didn't think for a moment how her archaic naming convention would be received and the recipient was even ruder by posting it on facebook instead of privately contacting the OP and informing her of her preferred method of address for future reference.

Overall, I agree with Embers post as well. Those posters calling us "silly" for our preferences are a bit rude too. Lots of rudeness to go around here. Etiquette rules are supposed to prevent this type of problem, but with the world changing as quickly as it does nowadays, I think the best etiquette is just to try to be thoughtful of other people.

 

[cornflake]

People do this here in the US too. It was a free option 20 some odd years ago on my NY State marriage license.

The problem as I see it is that neither party here is being thoughtful. The OP who sent the card didn't think for a moment how her archaic naming convention would be received and the recipient was even ruder by posting it on facebook instead of privately contacting the OP and informing her of her preferred method of address for future reference.

Overall, I agree with Embers post as well. Those posters calling us "silly" for our preferences are a bit rude too. Lot's of rudeness to go around here. Etiquette rules are supposed to prevent this type of problem, but with the world changing as quickly as it does nowadays, I think the best etiquette is just to try to be thoughtful of other people.

Ditto that those things have been going on here for decades.

Joaquin Phoenix's parents made up the name Phoenix when they got married, it was neither of their names. I know someone married like 25 or more years who they made a mashup of their names (not a hers his or hyphenate, like Jones and Smith became Smones), etc. Those people tend to be into the 'everyone in the family should have one name' thing. Most everyone I know just leaves their own names alone and hyphenates or flips for the kids'.

 

[disykat]

I have been married for 17 yrs. I would rather have mail addressed to me as Mrs. my first name last name. I am my own person. If it is addresses to both of us Mr and Mrs. DH firstname last name. I don't have a problem with it.

.

I feel the same way, so the OP's Christmas card is fine with me. DH agrees. He would not like something coming to HIM alone to be addressed to Mr. Mary Doe, but would be absolutely fine with an envelope to the two of us being addressed Mr. and Mrs. Mary Doe.

 

[goofinoff]

People do this here in the US too. It was a free option 20 some odd years ago on my NY State marriage license.

The problem as I see it is that neither party here is being thoughtful. The OP who sent the card didn't think for a moment how her archaic naming convention would be received and the recipient was even ruder by posting it on facebook instead of privately contacting the OP and informing her of her preferred method of address for future reference.

Overall, I agree with Embers post as well. Those posters calling us "silly" for our preferences are a bit rude too. Lot's of rudeness to go around here. Etiquette rules are supposed to prevent this type of problem, but with the world changing as quickly as it does nowadays, I think the best etiquette is just to try to be thoughtful of other people.

How was the OP not being thoughtful. She obviously has no problem with being called Mrs. John Doe so why would she even begin to think it would offend someone else. She didn't address it that way to piss anyone off. To me that is a formal way of addressing an envelope. It doesn't bother me in the least if we get something addressed like that. I have addressed many envelopes that way and not given it another thought. If by chance it "offended" someone and they told me in a polite civilized manner, I would apologize and not do it again.

I was honored (and quite excited) to take my husband's name and never once thought that it took away my independence or made me less of a person. I really don't care if someone decides to take their husband's last name or not.

It really takes a lot to offend me but I honestly have to say that I think there are a lot of other things in this world in this day and age to worry about than how an envelope is addressed. Sorry if that offends anyone.

 

[zokaluse]

That's is just plain snotty! She'd deffo be off my list too along with a reply to the post do she knew I'd seen it!
I'm keeping my surname when we get married next year & taking his too, he is also taking mine..none of us would be offended if it came with just one name or both!

 

[SaraJayne]

I'm going to step off topic for just a moment, because something is really bothering me in this thread. Those of us to dislike the practice of being addressed as "Mrs. John Smith" have been casually called "silly" or had a friendly eye roll smily posted in our general direction by a few posters.

While, as I said, I would never humiliate someone on Facebook over a kind gesture, I do not think taking a stand on the language used or caring about it is silly. Words matter. Just ask the people who want to end the use of the word "retard."

Patriarchal naming traditions are sexist. Why should women to be the ones in a marriage to give up their identity and name? Why should women bear the burden of changing their name on all of their legal documents and records? Why should women be compelled to publicly discolose their marital status by means of their title? Why is the family history of the woman, "carrying on the line" less important?

Perhaps the most important evidence that this tradition is not as innocent as it seems to be is to ask men to take a their wife's last name. This option is often viewed with derision and outright contempt. Why? If it truly doesn't matter anymore, if there is no power imbalance, why does it matter whose last name a family uses? Why would men be upset to be called "Mr. Jane HerName?"

My opinion is that if a man is unwilling to take his wife's last name, if he feels it makes him "less if a man" (less of a person), if he feels it would demean him or belittle him, then expecting a woman to take his name means all those same issues apply. It's subtle in a way, not often thought about or dismissed as "silly" as was done here. But it points towards a definite bias, a subtle misogyny the puts women in a postion of being the ones who are "less of a person."

Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just wanted to give a voice to the reason of why I care. This is why it bothers me and why I feel it is a topic worthy of consideration and not just one to be dismissed.

My BIL *did* take my sister's (and mine) last name. I still don't care whether I'm called Mrs. XXXXX.

I am proud to be my husband's wife and it isn't something I feel needs to be kept "private". It's kinda hard to hide my wedding ring.

 

[goofinoff]

My BIL *did* take my sister's (and mine) last name. I still don't care whether I'm called Mrs. XXXXX.

I am proud to be my husband's wife and it isn't something I feel needs to be kept "private". It's kinda hard to hide my wedding ring.

 

[buffettgirl]

Ditto that those things have been going on here for decades.

Joaquin Phoenix's parents made up the name Phoenix when they got married, it was neither of their names. I know someone married like 25 or more years who they made a mashup of their names (not a hers his or hyphenate, like Jones and Smith became Smones), etc. Those people tend to be into the 'everyone in the family should have one name' thing. Most everyone I know just leaves their own names alone and hyphenates or flips for the kids'.

Joaquin Phoenix's parents were in a cult and changed their name when they left the cult they were in. Phoenix: rising from the ashes, starting over. They changed the last name of all the children as well, and the children all used to call each other different first names.

Once again, your facts are hardly relevant to this discussion unless you're sending a christmas card to his parents.

 

[dfchelbay]

I sent a Christmas card to a family friend and her spouse, and today on facebook there is a picture of the envelope I addressed to them. I had addressed it to " Mr & Mrs (husbands name, last name). The status says something along the lines of it is 2012 and I have my own name and identity. Apparently I should have included both first names? I honestly was not trying to offend anyone. Just trying to fit it all in on the address line. But I can tell you who is OFF the card list from now on.

Anyone else get offended by having your mail addressed this way? I'll be honest, I don't put that much time into getting offended.

I'd copy her post with the photo onto your facebook page and write that this was found offensive by the recipient. Then, everyone that knows her & you will know what kind of petty and snarky person she is. She went out of her way to take a picture, go to facebook, upload the picture and write what she wrote. She is not friend. These are not the acts of a friend. She deliberately tried to embarrass and humiliate you. She knew you would see it. You are on her FB friend's list. I'd pretty much be done with her cards and otherwise.

 

[kimmar067]

I sent a Christmas card to a family friend and her spouse, and today on facebook there is a picture of the envelope I addressed to them. I had addressed it to " Mr & Mrs (husbands name, last name). The status says something along the lines of it is 2012 and I have my own name and identity. Apparently I should have included both first names? I honestly was not trying to offend anyone. Just trying to fit it all in on the address line. But I can tell you who is OFF the card list from now on.

Anyone else get offended by having your mail addressed this way? I'll be honest, I don't put that much time into getting offended.

....I'm sure she must have received DOZENS of other correspondence from others (like bills and junk mail) addressed in the same way. She must have spent lots of wasted time posting these too....



....really, that person has too much time on her hands to fret about something as silly as that.....OP, at least you'll save $.45 next year!

 

[SoCaOC-Mom]

I

As a side note: did anyone see Charles Barkley on SNL? He did a hilarious skit that my DS15 and I laugh about almost daily now. According to the skit, he would refer to this thread as "white-people problems". It was really funny. Making fun of some of the silly stuff we get upset about.

LOL- I was thinking the same thing as I read the thread. As others have mentioned, I am just happy to get the card and would never baulk about how it was addressed to be mailed.

 

[likescarrots]

Anyone else get offended by having your mail addressed this way?

Yes, I get offended by it (we have different last names). I will typically mention it to my husband (usually his family doing it) but I would never post on facebook about it or even mention it to the offending party (and yes, I do consider it an etiquette faux pas).