News, no longer rumor - WDW layoffs

[WDSearcher]

WDSearcher, I was a huge believer in giving Iger his shot when Eisner left. I felt he had earned it by licking Mikey's boots for all those years and also (wrongly) figured he'd have seen some of the errors in Eisner's ways. Turns out he isn't anything more than a bootlicker. I hear he's a really swell guy and all and probably a great father and husband but he just doesn't get the Disney legacy. While I agree that the Company can't be run as Walt ran it for a multitude of reasons, there is absolutely no reason it can't be run based on Walt's tried and true principals - Principals that worked so well that many of us still talk about them today. Principals that propelled PIXAR to the top of their field (before the Disney buyout).

Which tried and true principles of Walt's do you mean? I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I grew up with Disney too. The Disney I loved back then is still the Disney I see today. Much bigger, of course, but fundamentally the same. I don't know what you mean when you say the "real" Disney. Clearly your "real Disney" is different than mine, but I wonder how much of yours is clouded in the nostalia of what you believed Disney was when you were younger, and I wonder if that image you have is even attainable.

But I would like to know what "principles that worked so well that many of us still talk about them today" that you feel are missing.

As for will Disney still be there after the recession I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that YOUR Disney will still be there ... I'll also bet that all semblence to the 'real' Disney will be lost forever save for clever advertising campaigns and mass appeal gimmicks.

But really ... wasn't MMC just a clever advertising campaign and mass appeal gimmick? A way to get kids excited about all things Disney? To buy products and talk their parents into taking them to Disneyland? Look at all the TV specials Walt shot in the park. Every TV show ... every film became an attraction and begat merchandise. In that way, the entire Disney empire is really just a clever adversiting campaign to get people to go to Disney movies and buy Disney merchandise. That whole concept of "synergy" and merchandising started with Walt. From day one, Disneyland was developed as a marketing tool to help sell Disney products. Sure, Walt also wanted a clean safe amusement park to take his daughters too, but pretty much everything there was developed as a sales tool for something.

As I said ... I wonder how much of your disillusionment is the mere fact that you loved Walt (and the nostalgic memory of Walt) and hate Iger (because he's not Walt).

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Clearly you haven't followed my posts over the years.

I don't even particularily like Walt. HE was a mean, self absorbed crumudgeon who had to have his way all of the time. Thing about Walt though is that his way was always the right way as it turned out and I can't argue with success and especially not with the successes that he gave to me and the world.

His philosophies of quality first (quality only), exceeding a guests expectations, never taking shortcuts are hallmarks of his ideals. Universities used to teach classes on "The Disney Way" ... How they meticulously and without worry about cost screened, picked and trained their Castmembers to ensure their fit with the Company and its goals. How they did everything 'in house' to ensure that quality, etc.

He built a business around how he thought things should be and people should be treated and it worked very well. He knew that quality, while certainly more expensive to offer, would be eaten up by the public and as long as you offered that product that was so different from all others the profits would simply roll in. The worry wasn't in the profitability it was in the product because Walt KNEW that the one would ALWAYS follow the other.

If Mr. Iger wants to prove to me he cares about this Company let him make a dollar for the next year or two and save how many CM's jobs with the millions in savings, then when profits start rolling in again he can jump back on the gravy train if the BOD are still dolling out the dough for his kind of work.

Disney should be about QUALITY FAMILY ENTERTAINMENT not decent entertainment at the highest price they can possibly charge the masses to achieve their quarterly target numbers.

 

[MCO737FO]

WDSearher - OK, Are you Meg Crofton?!? Come on - fess-up!!!

WDS - I respect your view, truly. I wish I could share the feeling (or at least the kool-aid). Trust me, I have never once gone to Disney, or anywhere looking for dirt, or an overflowing trash can. If I assumed I would not be having a good time, I would not go. I'm not nearly the pessimist you assume me to be. A realist, very much so.

Like I said, WDW in my opinion is a shell of it's former-self (in terms of overall experience), but lucky for Disney that is still better than what you can get elsewhere. My attitude toward this preceeded the recent layoffs.

I haven't spoken with anyone tied to WDW who doesn't agree that the experience peaked about 10 years ago, and has declined ever since.

And for the record, Disney is not losing money. They simply not making as much as they once were. I have no problem with Disney cutting jobs (as much as I feel for those affected). Job cutting, furloughs, and layoffs have been a reality of my profession as long as I have been part of it.

I despise hypocrisy, and hate the spin.

Let's see. When they changed the ending of Kil Safaris in AK, and did away with the CM holding the rifle, and later a radio at the end of the ride, a manager told me that they did away with the live person due to guest feedback. Are you kidding me? I suppose guest feedback is also the reason the Yeti has been broken for 2 years, that linen table cloths have been removed from the restaurants in EPCOT as the menu prices have approached the stratosphere, that Fantasmis is 2 nights/week (and not a weekend night - gotta drive attendance on the off days!), live entertainment has been cut everywhere. Now that I recall, it was also due to guest feedback that the World SHowcase opening was pushed back to 11A after 9/11.

I don't think anyone wants Disney to be the American Red Cross, no, we want them to be a succesful, thriving, competitive company, consistent with our free market beliefs. For those of us that are disneyphiles, it would have been nice if they had done that within the framework of Walt's vision.

Just be honest. "We choose to run EE because with a still Yeti and strobe lights because we know people won't stop coming just because the Yeti is broken."

"Our restaruants are filled and booked 180 days in advance, so frankly noone is gonna stop coming for our mass-produced banquet food, served on a wooden table."

Remember when the butter at Disney had the WDW logo on it? remember when each restaurant had a signature bread? When the restaurant at Wilderness used to start you off with that big basket of homemade fries when you set down? the cheese bread at the Yachtsman?

I guess Disney is not really "bad." It has just descended to be like everything else, and is no longer really like Disney. I guess as a human, it will take time to adapt to change, and eventually I will come to accept Disney's new low bar, and therefore have my expectations reset. Until then, I'll occasionally drop by to offer a realistic view.

As for low morale everywhere. Nope, I'm very happy to report that the morale within my organization is very high, and I for one am very bullish, despite the economy.

Do you like my new slogan, A bad day at Disney is still better than a good day at work." They should never revive the "Do you remember the magic" campaign. It will leave us all depressed!!! Yes, Yes, we remember the magic, please Bob, can you give it back to us???

 

[WDSearcher]

Let's see. When they changed the ending of Kil Safaris in AK, and did away with the CM holding the rifle, and later a radio at the end of the ride, a manager told me that they did away with the live person due to guest feedback. Are you kidding me? I suppose guest feedback is also the reason the Yeti has been broken for 2 years, that linen table cloths have been removed from the restaurants in EPCOT as the menu prices have approached the stratosphere, that Fantasmis is 2 nights/week (and not a weekend night - gotta drive attendance on the off days!), live entertainment has been cut everywhere. Now that I recall, it was also due to guest feedback that the World SHowcase opening was pushed back to 11A after 9/11.

I don't think anyone wants Disney to be the American Red Cross, no, we want them to be a succesful, thriving, competitive company, consistent with our free market beliefs. For those of us that are disneyphiles, it would have been nice if they had done that within the framework of Walt's vision.

Just be honest. "We choose to run EE because with a still Yeti and strobe lights because we know people won't stop coming just because the Yeti is broken."

Actually, the nights chosen for Fant! were based more on performer and maintenance schedules than anything else. No one does Fant! exclusively ... they also do other shows and venues, so you have to make sure the schedules mesh and are overlapping properly so you don't end up with people on OT or too many people working too few hours. But that's neither here nor there.

Seriously, though. If a Disney spokesperson came flat out and said, "We choose to run EE because with a still Yeti and strobe lights because we know people won't stop coming just because the Yeti is broken.", would you honestly respect them for that, or would you scoff and say, "I cannot believe they just admitted that! What losers!"

I agree that there are things that could be done differently. But I also see Disney's point. If the restaurants are filled and booked 180 days in advance, should Disney spend more on menu development -- knowing that they'll just create more demand and, then, guest dissatisfaction because the restaurants are even more full -- or do they let menu development go and spend some time and money on rehabbing Space Mountain? Unfortunately, the business is gargantuan compared to what Walt had to deal with, and that has hurt things here and there. Walt didn't have stockholders to deal with. He had Roy and a far smaller balance sheet.

I remember not only the WDW logo butter but the mini Mickey butter sculptures. And yes, I miss them. But that wasn't "Disney" to me. Yeah, it was cool, but every time we would sit down to dinner my dad would say, "No wonder its so expensive here; how much do you think they pay the guy to sculpt the butter." He was kidding, mostly, but he equated the special butter with expense, not "Disney quality." Once the butter was just normal patties, he stopped complaining about the price of the meal. Because in his head, now the meal was priced properly. He was paying for the meal, not some guy to mold butter. What you see as a "special Disney touch" he saw as something unnecessary that was costing him money. So in that respect, if more people felt like my dad than felt like you then yes ... Disney could well say that guest comments made them change the butter.

Now, my dad also thought that the parks themselves were a great deal for what you got. One price and you got as many rides on Small World or Thunder Mountain or Spaceship Earth as you wanted. He looked at all of those things with the wonder of a kid because they were things that we never saw up in the Midwest. Of course, we also only came to WDW once every three years, so there was a lot of time for it to fade from memory and then amaze us again. I don't believe that Walt designed Disneyland with the thought that people would come 50 times a year. I think he figured it would be a once or twice a year destination for some and a once-in-a-lifetime trip for many. Sure he designed it to always be changing and, therefore, always luring you back, but I don't think he figured that there would be this huge group of Disneyphiles scrutinizing every screwhead or ceiling tile.

I guess Disney is not really "bad." It has just descended to be like everything else, and is no longer really like Disney. I guess as a human, it will take time to adapt to change, and eventually I will come to accept Disney's new low bar, and therefore have my expectations reset.

I don't think the bar is any lower. I think the bar defines a different thing. But again, that's my opinion based on how I view Disney vs. other things in my life. Your life experiences are different and, therefore, so is your view. And y'know? I don't really notice a difference in the tablecloths or care that they changed the end of the safari. I still enjoy my dinner and I still love the safari. And in that sense, yes ... "my" Disney is vastly different from yours.

 

[WDSearcher]

If Mr. Iger wants to prove to me he cares about this Company let him make a dollar for the next year or two and save how many CM's jobs with the millions in savings, then when profits start rolling in again he can jump back on the gravy train if the BOD are still dolling out the dough for his kind of work.

Then again, if the CMs that are being laid off are not necessary to the operation (are there too many levels of managers? are there six people doing the job that four people could do just as well?), then I as a stockholder would love it if the company streamlined. I mean, I'm sorry that people will lose their jobs, but if the company becomes more efficient based on realigning some work roles, I'm all for that in the long run. You're putting cause-and-effect between Iger's pay and CMs being laid off. I don't think the two things have that much to do with one another. If cutting Iger's salary to a buck saves four CM jobs that shouldnt' be there to begin with, how is that better?

Disney should be about QUALITY FAMILY ENTERTAINMENT not decent entertainment at the highest price they can possibly charge the masses to achieve their quarterly target numbers.

"Quality Family Entertainment" is obviously subjective. I think much of what Disney does IS quality family entertainment. Not everything, but mostly. And they don't charge the highest price they can possibly charge the masses. If they did, the masses would have reached the tipping point and would balk at any and every increase. Yet ... they don't. Prices go up, and the parks are still full. DVDs fly off the shelves. Plush toys and princess dresses go at a pretty good clip. Clearly the public has not yet reached that "it's too expensive ... I'm not buying any more" threshold. And ... well ... Disney is not achieving their quarterly target numbers, or so say my quarterly reports. So they're blowing it on that scale. But having watched Michael (and before Michael when the corporate raiders wanted to dissect the company and sell it off in pieces), I think Iger's doing a good job with a diverse company in a tough economy. And that's really all I can ask for from a stockholder standpoint. It does me no good if he lowers prices, reduces the profit margin and doesn't hit projections, y'know?

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I just disagree. Everything Disney does now is based on research designed to maximize profit potential. Can you tell me any other reason they would totally decimate the awesome Disney dining experience of the 'Signatures' that they once had in favor of the insipid and coma inspiring, generic dining plans?

RE: prices ... I think it's very obvious they charge the very minimum price that people will pay before rebelling AND they have come up with so many creative ways of hiding those prices.

We can disagree, that's OK, but I still will contend that Disney should not be cowtowing to the shareholders and wall st. They should run their Company prudently, in Disney fashion and make money from the expression of quality and storytelling at it's finest...The Disney way. If investors don't like the Disney way they shouldn't invest in it, IMO.

But I think the pendulum has swung too far and Iger's ilk will now rule the roost forever, meaning Disney will never again be a Company that cares about quality first, nor will they ever lead the way in creativity again. Goodbye Disney, hello Six Flags.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

BTW, Jack Welch, the former very well thought of CEO of GE has just stated that such a strong focus on short term, quarterly goals was a big mistake...hmmm.

 

[WDSearcher]

We can disagree, that's OK, but I still will contend that Disney should not be cowtowing to the shareholders and wall st. They should run their Company prudently, in Disney fashion and make money from the expression of quality and storytelling at it's finest...The Disney way. If investors don't like the Disney way they shouldn't invest in it, IMO.

I would agree with you if Disney operated in a vacuum. Unfortunately, it doesn't. I do agree that Disney storytelling is the hallmark of what the Company does. And that of all the Disney virtues, everything they do should come back to the story. I've seen evidence that story is more important than ever within the organization, but they are still trying to get ground back that was lost at various points in the past. In the pre-Pixar acquisition years, for example, Disney storytelling suffered greatly. With new artistic energy in animation, those latent storytelling genes are starting to re-emerge. I don't expect that kind of thing to fix itself overnight. But I see progress, and I'm happy for that.

But I think the pendulum has swung too far and Iger's ilk will now rule the roost forever, meaning Disney will never again be a Company that cares about quality first, nor will they ever lead the way in creativity again. Goodbye Disney, hello Six Flags.

Really? There's nothing in between? You go directly from "Disney" to "Six Flags"? That's what hurts your argument to me. That over-dramatic "Disney goes from being all that is well with the world directly to the dregs of amusement park existence in one fell swoop." That thought that if Disney does not remain exactly as you wish it to be, then there is truly no hope. There is no Disney left if Disney is not "your" Disney.

I still see a great deal of creativity, hard work, quality and caring in the Disney organization. You don't. As you said, we can disagree and that's OK. I just feel badly that some people are so wrapped up in what isn't there any more that they can't see the marvels that still are.

 

[WDSearcher]

BTW, Jack Welch, the former very well thought of CEO of GE has just stated that such a strong focus on short term, quarterly goals was a big mistake...hmmm.

Not sure that the two industries (automobiles and theme parks) are comparable on this scale, but point taken.

 

[lxh11]

WDS you have a very balanced sensible view about all this, unlike those that choose to moan and cry about how it's now the way it used to be.

I find this odd, if it's that bad and you don't enjoy it - don't go back and that's that. Show them take your money somewhere you will enjoy. It appears that many here are on a mission to lambast anything & everything and they must get get some sort of enjoyment about nit picking. Sensible people who don't like something, move on to what does suit them.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

WDS you have a very balanced sensible view about all this, unlike those that choose to moan and cry about how it's now the way it used to be.

I find this odd, if it's that bad and you don't enjoy it - don't go back and that's that. Show them take your money somewhere you will enjoy. It appears that many here are on a mission to lambast anything & everything and they must get get some sort of enjoyment about nit picking. Sensible people who don't like something, move on to what does suit them.

"moan and cry." LOL. Searcher is at least trying to understand where I'm coming from. The old 'if you don't like it don't go' is always the easiest brush off. But I have already stated we WON'T be renewing our AP's this spring. We have active two year passes to Universal and I'm quite content going there when I go out. So I really am taking your advice aren't I? Does that mean I should be banned from discussing something I enjoy talking about too?

Searcher, my comparison to Six Flags is simple hyperbole. Because in the world of theme parks the usual generalization is that Disney is easily the cream of the crop and the rest battle with six flags for the bottom. Clearly Universal, for one, stands far and away above six flags as well.

RE: Welch, certainly the industries and companies share little to compare but the fact that a generally very well respected and high profile CEO has made statements of this nature should speak directly to a company that thrives in the quality first business like I've argued Disney is (or should be).

RE: PIXAR, I've been thrilled with what they've released for Disney thus far but all of those offerings were already in the works prior to the buyout. Now PIXAR has seen a lot of creative and internal changes and there have been many departures so whether PIXAR will continue to create to the level they did prior to being acquired remains to be seen, IMO. I'm not positive, of course.

But the sad part of this is that Disney, due to their bottom line mentality, decimated their own top of the line animation department in the name of synergy, product tie ins and fear of risk taking in telling a story. The fact that Disney had to pay an exhorbitant amount of money for something they basically had the birthright to stinks to high heaven.

 

[WDSearcher]

But the sad part of this is that Disney, due to their bottom line mentality, decimated their own top of the line animation department in the name of synergy, product tie ins and fear of risk taking in telling a story. The fact that Disney had to pay an exhorbitant amount of money for something they basically had the birthright to stinks to high heaven.

I agree. But to know that someone saw that and then found a way to fix it is a plus for me. We can discuss ad nauseum why it happened and how it shouldn't have and how silly it was for Disney to have to go buy up Pixar when some care and feeding earlier in the decade would have saved the internal group, but the point is that Disney did what Disney did, for whatever reasons they had at the time. Michael took something apart and Bob came in and put as his #1 task to fix that one thing. Which he did by acquiring Pixar.

I know that there are folks at Disney hoping and waiting for the first big Pixar flop because it will make all those Disney animators (and ex-animators) feel better about themselves. I don't get that. Disney animation faltered and fell. It happened. Get over it and move on. Don't sit, wishing for Pixar to fail too so that you can feel better about what your area didn't do or wasn't allowed to do. Learn from it, hopefully, but move on. That's the part of all of this that really bugs me, I guess. Stuff happens. Stuff on a grand corporate scale. No company is immune. No corporate culture perfect. People are fallible. I can't fault Bob for coming in and wanting to make the company his own. Not all Bob's stuff worked. Not all of Walt's stuff worked either, but he was on a far smaller and far less visible playing field. No one had done what he'd done before, so no one could compare him to the first guy. No one said, "Gee, if Walt had just done it the way so-and-so did it ..." because there WAS no "so-and-so." He had that distinct advantage.

I remember an early Jeffrey Katzenberg interview where someone asked him if he thought Walt would approve of what he was doing with animation. And he said (paraphrasing here), "I don't know. Walt is dead. No one knows what he thinks." and I stood up and applauded. Because I was getting so tired of the "WWWD?" mentality that seemed to be stifling creative thought.

Like you, I also enjoy Universal, although I'd never stop going to Disney because of it. I don't like the overall "feel" of their parks. I don't like the "CityWalk crush" as I call the walk between the parks. I can't STAND the parking. I don't like that all of their advertising has to slam (or copy) Disney. I never feel that they're pushing their own parks on their merits. They're always saying, "Come here because we're cheaper than Disney" or "come here because Disney is all fairies and pixie dust." Or else you've got the new "feel like a superhero" commercials that are so Disneyesque that I had to watch it twice to be sure it WASN'T a Disney ad. I don't want to hear what Disney DOESN'T have ... tell me what you DO have. Who cares about Disney? Tell me about Universal! When Universal stops thinking of themselves as Disney's red-headed step-cousin down the road, then I'll have a better appreciation for them.

And you know ... maybe a break from Disney will be just what you need to re-discover what it is they still have that no one else can match. Or ... it may totally convince you that you're "done" where Disney is concerned. Either way, you'll be spending your money where you feel you're getting the most back for YOU. And a line somewhere at Disney will be shorter for me.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

If PIXAR continues to suceed in the same vein they did before Disney bought them then I agree it's better than what they had in place and you're right, arguing over what happened in the past only goes so far. I, for one love Rat and Wall-E and am hopeful that enough freedom will still be allowed these guys (artists) to continue doing what they do best. Note: I do not want a PIXAR flop, that is silly behavior IMO.

In my 20 years of discussing Disney culture I only used the WWWD comment a couple of times and that was recently in response to claims that I thought totally cynical in discussion's of Walt Disney. But I too realize that Walt is dead and no one knows what specifically he would do or like. IMO, If Walt would have been a younger man when WDW opened we would have never seen another theme park from him. He was into urban planning, see EPCOT, and would have probably sunk everything into creating that utopia next. Walt didn't stand on his laurels nor did he like to reinvent the wheel. So I agree that WWWD is basically useless. I prefer to promote the ideals that he ran his business by vs. what exists today and that's so difficult to discuss because again, it's all conjecture but I personally feel Disney COULD run by essentially the rules as they once did and be very successful with a better product.

RE: Universal, I like all the things you don't. I like the garages and moving sidewalks, I like the hustle and bustle of City Walk (reminds me a bit of DL). I agree about the negative advertising but in this world this is what works (sadly, IMO). But basically I want all of the PArks to be the best they can be because that benefits me. I am no longer the brand monkey I once was as I will gladly enjoy whatever any of them give me that is top quality.

 

[disney1990]

But I think the pendulum has swung too far and Iger's ilk will now rule the roost forever, meaning Disney will never again be a Company that cares about quality first, nor will they ever lead the way in creativity again. Goodbye Disney, hello Six Flags.

So do you mean the Six Flags that is thinking about filing for bankruptcy? There's such a big difference between the 2 - there is no comparison. We have a Six Flags about 15 minutes from my house and I would NEVER go there. It is gross.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

So do you mean the Six Flags that is thinking about filing for bankruptcy? There's such a big difference between the 2 - there is no comparison. We have a Six Flags about 15 minutes from my house and I would NEVER go there. It is gross.

As I explained, it wasn't meant to be literal it was poetic license...

 

[WDSearcher]

As I explained, it wasn't meant to be literal it was poetic license...

Next time, please write in haiku. Thank you.

 

[WDSearcher]

In my 20 years of discussing Disney culture I only used the WWWD comment a couple of times and that was recently in response to claims that I thought totally cynical in discussion's of Walt Disney. But I too realize that Walt is dead and no one knows what specifically he would do or like. IMO, If Walt would have been a younger man when WDW opened we would have never seen another theme park from him. He was into urban planning, see EPCOT, and would have probably sunk everything into creating that utopia next.

Totally agree!

RE: Universal, I like all the things you don't.

Somebody has to!

But basically I want all of the Parks to be the best they can be because that benefits me.

Again with the totally agree.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Next time, please write in haiku. Thank you.

Walt dreamt in color.
Believed a story was key.
Imagination.

Better?

 

[WDSearcher]

Walt dreamt in color.
Believed a story was key.
Imagination.

Better?

Perfect.

 

[MCO737FO]

WDS you have a very balanced sensible view about all this, unlike those that choose to moan and cry about how it's now the way it used to be.

I find this odd, if it's that bad and you don't enjoy it - don't go back and that's that. Show them take your money somewhere you will enjoy. It appears that many here are on a mission to lambast anything & everything and they must get get some sort of enjoyment about nit picking. Sensible people who don't like something, move on to what does suit them.

Wow - How foolish of me! I'm a sensible person who took time to express thoughts and observations relating something we all seem to have some level of interest in....How un-sensible of me! What a fool I am!

Are you really that intolerant that you cannot hear a different opinon or view, or just narrowminded?

After you remove the happy ears and inject the truth serum, go ahead and tell me that your Disney experience is equal to, or greater than it was 5-10 years ago. Seriously. I am a tolerant person, and you may say that your experience is better, which is clearly subjective, and I appreciate and respect your opinion (without deeming you sensible or unsensible).

I also speak for several people that I converse with each week. I'm an airline pilot. I am based out of Orlando. I have the privilege of speaking with folks each week in the airport, and I love to hear about theme park adventures, and great times. I want people to have a great time. I need people to have a great time. It is good for my livelihood. Hell I own a home in a town that Disney developed. For years I never heard an ill-word towards Disney. I will tell you now that I hear more and more people complain about high prices and a diminished experience at the end of their vacation. This is reality. You call it unsensible. I call it exposing a farce that I hope a groundswell can overcome. I know that Disney managment monitors this and other boards. I have been told this by people who know. This is the only reason I am here. I don't have time for pro-bono work, and I have no interest in following web blogs unless it is one that tells me how to be healthier, fly an airplane better, or make more money.

But again, I am not sensible.

Please tell me you are upper-management at WDW - I'll understand your comment much better.

Keep flying!