Need help on DVC Direct/Resale with Aulani.

[Jimmy Geppetto]

I think its focused as much on Hawaii as any other major chain of hotels or timeshares that operate there. And certainly they're a major employer, and a generator of tourist dollars, so I don't really understand what you're saying. How else would Disney focus on Hawaii? What exactly do you expect?
Also, I don't much care how many millions of points they have to sell. And, truly, I don't think they'll ever sell the facility, but if they did, I think they'd offer existing owners a way out should we want it. Might even be a good deal! But in the meantime, unless you're a DVC executive, I'm not sure why anyone needs to focus on the business aspect of Aulani when they don't have to, and can instead enjoy a top flight resort with great theming and amenities, in a beautiful, quiet location.

I’ll start off by reiterating how nice Aulani is. It’s a beautiful resort. But in my opinion if you think DVC will allow existing owners a “way out”, I’m sorry but that is laughable. What would they tell the new buyers in this scenario?
I’ll speak for myself, and share my perspective that it’s not a great use of money compared to what else is available. But existing Aulani owners would and should challenge this belief. It’s in their best interest to challenge us who think otherwise. The more of us that think this way (and there are many) the less resale value they get.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I’ll start off by reiterating how nice Aulani is. It’s a beautiful resort. But in my opinion if you think DVC will allow existing owners a “way out”, I’m sorry but that is laughable. What would they tell the new buyers in this scenario?
I’ll speak for myself, and share my perspective that it’s not a great use of money compared to what else is available. But existing Aulani owners would and should challenge this belief. It’s in their best interest to challenge us who think otherwise. The more of us that think this way (and there are many) the less resale value they get.

Of course I disagree, and the many viewpoints expressed are what makes these boards great! But I'm not speaking positively about Aulani as part of some machiavellian scheme to somehow increase resale value through posting on these boards. In your words, that would be laughable. And no one seems particularly convincible anyway!

First, since we live on the west coast, Hawaii is a short flight away, and thats a big plus. I don't think we'd ever own at Aulani if we had to take a ten hour flight there and back from the east coast. We also, like most everyone here, love WDW and own mainly at CCV and VGF. But we do have some Aulani points, and in my opinion the resort, though probably the most troubled DVC resort direct sales wise, is also the most beautiful, and the most relaxing, and in the most stunning location. I actually think its the best. We occasionally make use of the 11 month window for the holidays as well. Since we purchased, the average resale value on many sights has skyrocketed, though savvy buyers can find some contracts more reasonably priced, like they can for all the resorts.

I am a little surprised at the volume of negativity being expressed here, where the general vibe on most threads is always more encouraging and positive. There's that old DVC adage, buy where you want to stay. Some agree, some disagree. But we want to stay at Aulani, and thats where we bought.

 

[RoseGold]

With resale being as high as it is, I think there’s also an argument to be made for renting Aulani points. The math is awfully close, and to me renting makes sense to avoid the risks of timeshares in general and Aulani in particular.

As a timeshare business, Aulani has been problematic in many ways for a long time. This isn’t news.

 

[Paul Stupin]

With resale being as high as it is, I think there’s also an argument to be made for renting Aulani points. The math is awfully close, and to me renting makes sense to avoid the risks of timeshares in general and Aulani in particular.

As a timeshare business, Aulani has been problematic in many ways for a long time. This isn’t news.

Well these concerns of yours certainly haven't affected the resale price. And if I had rented instead of bought, it wouldn’t have worked out as well financially.

 

[RoseGold]

Well these concerns of yours certainly haven't affected the resale price. And if I had rented instead of bought, it wouldn’t have worked out as well financially.

Unless you bought a direct subsidized contract, Aulani has been problematic since you bought in. OP is buying now. Mathematically, current resale pricing isn't very appealing to me over renting Aulani, which isn't hard.

Comparatively, I don't view VGC (or WDW) with as much risk. I have much less concern about those projects as a whole and the future law/dues changes there. It's historically easy enough to get out for what you paid, and I'd be fine with using good old fashioned SAP to stay at Aulani.

OP is considering buying a real estate interest with a troubled past in another state. I think it's important for him to consider all these factors. I seriously considered a subsidized Aulani contract as SAP and decided against it with help from these boards. IMO, there are much better places to put the money, even within the DVC system. Obviously it's not my money, so it's not my decision.

And sorry Aulani owners, I know you don't like rehashing all of this every time...

 

[Paul Stupin]

Unless you bought a direct subsidized contract, Aulani has been problematic since you bought in. OP is buying now. Mathematically, current resale pricing isn't very appealing to me over renting Aulani, which isn't hard.

Comparatively, I don't view VGC (or WDW) with as much risk. I have much less concern about those projects as a whole and the future law/dues changes there. It's historically easy enough to get out for what you paid, and I'd be fine with using good old fashioned SAP to stay at Aulani.

OP is considering buying a real estate interest with a troubled past in another state. I think it's important for him to consider all these factors. I seriously considered a subsidized Aulani contract as SAP and decided against it with help from these boards. IMO, there are much better places to put the money, even within the DVC system. Obviously it's not my money, so it's not my decision.

And sorry Aulani owners, I know you don't like rehashing all of this every time...
[/QUOTE
You keep talking about future law/dues changes. If you’re an expert on Hawaii tax and timeshare laws, and you’ve bought and sold Aulani and have had a negative experience, I would certainly appreciate a more detailed and factual breakdown of the issues you keep referring to, and your experiences. But I’d also ask that they not be based on uninformed conjecture or hearsay, especially of theoretical Hawaii tax law changes which you have no idea will actually happen. Are you a Hawaii based tax attorney? Do you have any related experience that can give added validity to your claims?

Re Aulani’s “troubled past.” Are you referring to the dues mistake when it opened, which created the subsidized contracts? Granted, seems like it was either a stupid or greedy maneuver, but it was ultimately resolved about 10 years ago, right? Or is there something else you're referring to? Was there some complicated tax law manipulation we don’t know about? If so, tell us about it. Truly, I think we’d all be interested!
Re buying VGC instead, I’d don‘t think I’d ever recommend a resort priced as monumentally high, especially since I‘d bet DLT will be a better deal next year.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree! Or maybe even respect each other’s opinion.

 

[RoseGold]

Hawaii has targeted timeshares in particular with many law changes over many decades, but there's also the taxes, like property taxes, which we call dues. IMO the changes over time have not favored owners. Aulani's dues are relatively low now, but that could change. Even a small dues change would be enough to tip the math for me to another SAP property.

If you own Aulani, you should have a plan to probate in Hawaii, like I have a plan to probate in Florida. There are ownership structures to get around this, but it does require planning.

Aulani's "mistake" was huge, but no one ever got charged for fraud, I guess. You don't have to be an accountant to see Aulani has undersold. That's why Disney is still holding the bag on millions of points. Who knows what Disney will do with those points. That bag holding can cut against resale as well. Resale may always be competing against direct sales by Disney, or whoever owns Aulani in the future. I perceive all of this as risk.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Hawaii has targeted timeshares in particular with many law changes over many decades, but there's also the taxes, like property taxes, which we call dues. IMO the changes over time have not favored owners. Aulani's dues are relatively low now, but that could change. Even a small dues change would be enough to tip the math for me to another SAP property.

If you own Aulani, you should have a plan to probate in Hawaii, like I have a plan to probate in Florida. There are ownership structures to get around this, but it does require planning.

Aulani's "mistake" was huge, but no one ever got charged for fraud, I guess. You don't have to be an accountant to see Aulani has undersold. That's why Disney is still holding the bag on millions of points. Who knows what Disney will do with those points. That bag holding can cut against resale as well. Resale may always be competing against direct sales by Disney, or whoever owns Aulani in the future. I perceive all of this as risk.

Fair enough. Respectfully, so much of your opinion is based on events you think will occur in the future, but none of us have any real idea of future changes to Hawaii tax and timeshare laws. But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that the sky is not falling down over Aulani anytime soon.

I do agree that Aulani is clearly undersold, and that resale could be competing with direct sales. As I have said, though, I could sell my Aulani contracts right now at a profit, so for me that’s not currently a factor. But I do understand potentially buying a resort like SSR for SAP to use at Aulani. But since we live in Los Angeles, and have no desire to ever stay at SSR, where the 11 month window is meaningless, I’d rather own at a resort I truly enjoy.

 

[hhisc16]

Why has Aulani never sold out?
They have been selling Aulani over 10 years right...

 

[Paul Stupin]

Why has Aulani never sold out?
They have been selling Aulani over 10 years right...

They massively overestimated demand. I think the 10 hour flight from the east coast is a huge deterrent to some buyers.

 

[Jimmy Geppetto]

They massively overestimated demand. I think the 10 hour flight from the east coast is a huge deterrent to some buyers.

Agreed, coupled with DVC’s reputation on dues increases for beach front properties. I’ve also spoken to local Aulani employees who have said DVC overestimated demand from potential international buyers in Japan. With the location being on the Westward side of the island it’s less desirable.

 

[scoobdoo]

To each his own. I don’t like the anxiety that goes along with resale. Once I make such a big decision, I just want it to be done. It has nothing to do with the money. You would hate to see me buy a new car.

Exact same. We bought direct and loved the speed and efficiency of the transaction.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Agreed, coupled with DVC’s reputation on dues increases for beach front properties. I’ve also spoken to local Aulani employees who have said DVC overestimated demand from potential international buyers in Japan. With the location being on the Westward side of the island it’s less desirable.

I don‘t think you can fault Disney for any Aulani design or location issues. The beaches are better on the east side, but it’s rainy, there aren’t any other hotels, and I think it’s harder to get to many tourist spots. And Ko Olina is pretty nice. I think their market research was the culprit.

And, as I’ve said, I don‘t think it would be easy to sell to another timeshare entity, since a key feature to the points is the ability to use them at every other DVC resort. Integrating two timeshare systems sounds like a nightmare, especially when DVC can’t get one system to work. And let’s not forget the additional booking advantages of direct points. If a sale shut out Aulani owners from booking any other DVC resort, they’d have to get compensated in some way. You said this scenario was laughable, but what other choice would they have? And what about other home resort owners who bought elsewhere to book Aulani at 7 months? Maybe there’s fine print in the contracts which covers this. But who knows?

 

[Drewski77]

We love Aulani as West Coasters but bought SSR points as SAP to stay at Aulani.

We think the dues will stay lower at SSR, and over time more stability with the price since SSR is at WDW.

Again, we love Aulani and go twice per year, but find resale SSR a better option than owning Aulani.

 

[Jimmy Geppetto]

I don‘t think you can fault Disney for any Aulani design or location issues. The beaches are better on the east side, but it’s rainy, there aren’t any other hotels, and I think it’s harder to get to many tourist spots. And Ko Olina is pretty nice. I think their market research was the culprit.

And, as I’ve said, I don‘t think it would be easy to sell to another timeshare entity, since a key feature to the points is the ability to use them at every other DVC resort. Integrating two timeshare systems sounds like a nightmare, especially when DVC can’t get one system to work. And let’s not forget the additional booking advantages of direct points. If a sale shut out Aulani owners from booking any other DVC resort, they’d have to get compensated in some way. You said this scenario was laughable, but what other choice would they have? And what about other home resort owners who bought elsewhere to book Aulani at 7 months? Maybe there’s fine print in the contracts which covers this. But who knows?

Access to other resorts in DVC is a perk. Our contracts only promise us access to our home resort. Nothing more. They would owe us nothing if they did that.

 

[Paul Stupin]

We love Aulani as West Coasters but bought SSR points as SAP to stay at Aulani.

We think the dues will stay lower at SSR, and over time more stability with the price since SSR is at WDW.

Again, we love Aulani and go twice per year, but find resale SSR a better option than owning Aulani.

We go twice a year as well, once on direct points and once on our Copper Creek points. Not the most financially sound strategy, but we like the option down the line of foregoing an Aulani trip and booking a cabin.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Access to other resorts in DVC is a perk. Our contracts only promise us access to our home resort. Nothing more. They would owe us nothing if they did that.

Well, then lets hope they don't!

 

[Paul Stupin]

Exact same. We bought direct and loved the speed and efficiency of the transaction.

I initially bought resale, but after many contracts ultimately switched to direct. I'm not a fan of either the process or delays involved in resale, and I like the ability to book at Riviera and other future resorts with direct.

 

[Drewski77]

I initially bought resale, but after many contracts ultimately switched to direct. I'm not a fan of either the process or delays involved in resale, and I like the ability to book at Riviera and other future resorts with direct.

What’s nice about DVC is having two options with resale and direct.

I’ve had good resale experiences and really value the 30% or so I’ve saved, but for others the benefits of direct are worth the extra cost.

It’s great to have the choice when looking to purchase.

 

[Ruttangel]

I think a lot of people are over dramatising buying a resale contract. You don't need that much patience and I found it exciting not stressful. I've bought 4 and had 1 taken, I'd do it all again in a heartbeat