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[poohbear919]

Here is the actual prophesy:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Okay the above statement in red is exactly what makes me believe that Harry's scar is indeed NOT a horcrux, but simply a scar... The prophesy explicitly states that LV would mark the one with the power to vanquish him as his equal... In my mind, Harry's scar is obviously this mark and it is the thing that distinguishes him from Neville. The scar is there so that others who learned of the prophesy could be sure that Harry was the one with this power, not Neville - since both boys could have easily fulfilled what the prophesy states!

Wouldn't an interesting twist be to find out that Neville does have some mark we never knew of and he saves the day???

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks for the links! I have HP Lexicon bookmarked on my laptop but I never saw that. Well that is interesting. I knew that Snape only heard the first part of the prophecy because they mention that in the book.

Ok, I get that DD trusted Snape and that he believed his regret. But Snape had to have known what LV was going to do with the information he was given. He had to know LV wasn't going to sit idly by and let the Potter's live. So why would he react in horror or give the impression of "well I didn't know he was going to do that, and I really regret it." He knew darn well what LV was capable of, so why wait until after Lily and James murder to repent? That's something I can't wrap my mind around.

We don't know that Snape knew exactly who LV planned to kill until after it happened. He had given LV the information from the prophesy, but we don't know what his role in planning the attack was (if any).

Keep in mind that at the time of the attack, Snape was already Potions teacher at Hogwarts, having started sometime after hearing the prophesy. We don't know where Snape was exactly during the attack, but he would have been fairly tied up with his teaching duties.

 

[SueM in MN]

Okay the above statement in red is exactly what makes me believe that Harry's scar is indeed NOT a horcrux, but simply a scar... The prophesy explicitly states that LV would mark the one with the power to vanquish him as his equal... In my mind, Harry's scar is obviously this mark and it is the thing that distinguishes him from Neville. The scar is there so that others who learned of the prophesy could be sure that Harry was the one with this power, not Neville - since both boys could have easily fulfilled what the prophesy states!

Wouldn't an interesting twist be to find out that Neville does have some mark we never knew of and he saves the day???

I can't remember (and don't have time to look for) the exact quote, but Dumbledore says something to the effect of LV choosing to attack Harry was what made Harry "The Chosen One" instead of Neville. So, by choosing him, LV 'marked' Harry.

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

Thanks for the links! I have HP Lexicon bookmarked on my laptop but I never saw that. Well that is interesting. I knew that Snape only heard the first part of the prophecy because they mention that in the book.

Ok, I get that DD trusted Snape and that he believed his regret. But Snape had to have known what LV was going to do with the information he was given. He had to know LV wasn't going to sit idly by and let the Potter's live. So why would he react in horror or give the impression of "well I didn't know he was going to do that, and I really regret it." He knew darn well what LV was capable of, so why wait until after Lily and James murder to repent? That's something I can't wrap my mind around.

I think the point is that Snape didn't know who the (singular, in his mind) person that would fulfill the prophecy would be. I don't think that LV would reveal that information and I certainly doubt that he would reveal that two boys could be the potential ones. It was a mtter of life and death in his (LV's) mind. Moreover, we have it from DD, who is one of our most reliable sources, that he trusted no one. I tend to doubt someone that power-hungry would reveal his "only weakness" to someone.

However, we do know that LV and the DEs did terrible things to both boy's families. But, somehow, both boys managed to come out alive. Conincidence? Maybe, maybe not. What we don't know is if LV knew Neville and Harry could fulfill it and he chose Harry; or, if by this actions, he chose Harry perhaps unknowingly and unwittingly. In DD's words, we were never given a full account that LV investigated both the Potters and Longbottoms before committing the murders (I don't think- someone please correct me if I am wrong!!).

I can't remember (and don't have time to look for) the exact quote, but Dumbledore says something to the effect of LV choosing to attack Harry was what made Harry "The Chosen One" instead of Neville. So, by choosing him, LV 'marked' Harry.

Yes. That is correct. The way you've got it there is essentially the way it is written in the book. Marked Harry as an equal.

 

[va32h]

I tend to doubt it. I just don't see Snape revealing an insecurity or soft side to someone as brutal as LV. At the point Lily was killed, Snape was still very much serving LV and only LV.

Do we have any idea on the timeframe from when Snape heard Trelawney to the time the Potter's were killed?

Was he serving only LV?

See, this part always confuses me. Is Snape supposed to have had this great moment of remorse when Voldemort started looking for the Potters or only after he actually killed them?

I agree that I can't see Snape asking Voldemort for any favors. Who would dare ask Voldemort for a favor, and why would Voldemort grant it?

I don't know why Voldemort wouldn't kill Lily to begin with, but I think his surprise at her refusal to let him take Harry is because he's never known a mother's love, so he just doesn't understand why she'd give her life for his. He's incredulous - what do you mean you won't step aside?

Well I'm off to read that timeline myself. I have to get to the bottom of the Snape situation.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't know why Voldemort wouldn't kill Lily to begin with, but I think his surprise at her refusal to let him take Harry is because he's never known a mother's love, so he just doesn't understand why she'd give her life for his. He's incredulous - what do you mean you won't step aside?

I always read it as V being sarcastic. He was going to kill her anyway and I think his offer to let her live was more a taunt than an actual negotiation tactic. However, JKR said Lily really did have the option to live and in choosing to die, she was able to give Harry the protection that allowed him to live. V has no problem killing so I find it strange he offered Lily the chance to live. What is one more dead body to him? Lily would have died trying to protect Harry anyway regardless of if her death was planned or unplanned; she did not want V to get to her son.

However, we do know that LV and the DEs did terrible things to both boy's families.
What we don't know is if LV knew Neville and Harry could fulfill it and he chose Harry; or, if by this actions, he chose Harry perhaps unknowingly and unwittingly.

Was Neville around when his parents were being tortured? I can't remember if that was ever covered...

V only heard part of the prophecy. After he attacked Harry the second part of the prophecy was fulfilled. V forced the prophecy through by marking Harry. DD essentially says that V felt that Harry was a bigger threat and points out that V chose the half-blood option (Harry) because V is a half-blood himself. Neville is a pureblood. V chose Harry to fulfill the prophecy by trying and failing to kill him. If he hadn't tried to kill Harry, it is possible the prophecy would not have come true. In OOtP DD says not all prophecies are fulfilled.

I believe Neville will play a big part in the final battle. It could have been him the prophecy referenced and he has as much reason as Harry to hate V and the Death Eaters. He's got the Griffindor bravery and we've seen him grow in both confidence and magic skills. He did fight with Harry at the DoM in OOtP. I'd like to see Neville take down Bellatrix because she tortured his parents.

Anyhow. I was thinking. Two of the answers have been important in the story. Lupin was saved from his condition by the Wolfsbane, and obviously Ron was saved by the bezoar by giving the info.

Will the Draught of the Living Death be any significance? Sure, Harry made one with the help of the HBP, but that's not super significant other than showing us that Snape knew how to make it well, even when he was young.

This is a brilliant idea! JKR writes nothing by accident. That exchange might have seemed significant only to that situation but it has since been referenced in other books and unrelated situations. Many other seemingly little things prove to be important later on (like the cabinet in Borgin and Burkes) so the Draught of Living Death could very well figure into book seven.

OT..again. But in the sig pic of the Weasley twins of auroraborealis, the twin on the right.....doesnt that look like Claire Danes?

LOL! He really does. I might have to find a different picture!

 

[SueM in MN]

This is a brilliant idea! JKR writes nothing by accident. That exchange might have seemed significant only to that situation but it has since been referenced in other books and unrelated situations. Many other seemingly little things prove to be important later on (like the cabinet in Borgin and Burkes) so the Draught of Living Death could very well figure into book seven.



LOL! He really does. I might have to find a different picture!

I had noticed the "Draught of the Living Death" also.
Even if it wasn't used for/by Dumbledore, I think it will figure in the story later on. When DD was talking to Draco Malfoy on the rooftop, he said that if Draco chose not to kill him, DD could arrange for him and his family to be hidden so well they would never be found (paraphrased). I think that later on Draco's mother and him may choose that option.
Draco's aunt Bella is eveil thru and thru, but I'm not so sure about Draco's mom. We don't know much about her except that she pleaded for her son's life. I think there might be something to the fact that she is described as very fair and her sister Bella is described as "dark as her sister is fair", as if to make sure that there is a difference between them.

 

[CobraBubbles]

I always read it as V being sarcastic. He was going to kill her anyway and I think his offer to let her live was more a taunt than an actual negotiation tactic. However, JKR said Lily really did have the option to live and in choosing to die, she was able to give Harry the protection that allowed him to live. V has no problem killing so I find it strange he offered Lily the chance to live. What is one more dead body to him? Lily would have died trying to protect Harry anyway regardless of if her death was planned or unplanned; she did not want V to get to her son.

Very intersting when JKR said that Lily really did have the choice. What is that about? I suspect it's still in the theme of Snape. I really don't know why or how...but what other reason could there have been?

This is a brilliant idea! JKR writes nothing by accident. That exchange might have seemed significant only to that situation but it has since been referenced in other books and unrelated situations. Many other seemingly little things prove to be important later on (like the cabinet in Borgin and Burkes) so the Draught of Living Death could very well figure into book seven.

When the Bezoar came into play that really got me thinking about it. But who doesn't love that line about potions in the book, when Snape gives his very romantic descriptions of potions. I don't know what role it will play, but I have to think something.

LOL! He really does. I might have to find a different picture!

Don't worry, he's still pretty

 

[CobraBubbles]

Was he serving only LV?

See, this part always confuses me. Is Snape supposed to have had this great moment of remorse when Voldemort started looking for the Potters or only after he actually killed them?

I agree that I can't see Snape asking Voldemort for any favors. Who would dare ask Voldemort for a favor, and why would Voldemort grant it?

I don't know why Voldemort wouldn't kill Lily to begin with, but I think his surprise at her refusal to let him take Harry is because he's never known a mother's love, so he just doesn't understand why she'd give her life for his. He's incredulous - what do you mean you won't step aside?

Well I'm off to read that timeline myself. I have to get to the bottom of the Snape situation.

Exactly. Snape's redemption HAS TO have something to do with the Potters. It has to be something that will smack Harry in the face in book 7. Because, let's face it, everything is centered around Harry. Like in book 4, I was all mad (when I first read it) because there was this stupid tri-wizard tournament that Harry couldn't even enter because he was too young. Well, we all know what happens. It would be silly that Snape's redemption was that he just had a change of heart (DD wouldn't believe that, he's one of the smartest wizards ever) or that Voldy was being mean to him...or whatever.

Perhaps he asked Lily's life to be spared, and LV said something like 'Kill DD and I'll spare Lily' instead of going to kill DD (or heck - think of the Draco situation, maybe he tries). Snape wouldn't trust LV, but he would know DD would be more powerful. He tells DD what happened so DD hides Snape and his family (for instance we don't really know what happened to his parents) just like he was going to hide Draco and his family, and tries to keep the Potters safe, but that gets all messed up. I know that this is wild trajectory, but what I like about this theory is the parallel between Draco and Snape. DD said he could hide Draco's family with assurance...as if he had done it before...hmm.

Also, HI, my name is Jeni, I will probably have a new crack theory EVERYDAY

 

[va32h]

Also, HI, my name is Jeni, I will probably have a new crack theory EVERYDAY

Well here's my crackpot theory for the week then! And I have totally broken my "no more than two what-if's rule".

I have been struggling for a long time to come up with a reason why Snape would regret that the Potters were killed because of his action, and yet still hate James as powerfully as he does.

I have never liked the Lily angle, because it doesn't seem likely that Voldemort would grant any of his followers a favor, beyond not killing them!

So I started thinking and re-reading.

At the end of Sorcerer's Stone, Dumbledore tells Harry that James once saved Snape's life, but he doesn't say how. Dumbledore says that Snape owes James a life-debt, but doesn't really explain what that means either.

In Prisoner of Azkaban, Lupin tells the story of the infamous prank, where Sirius tried to send Snape off to werewolf Lupin, but James stops him. (Does Dumbledore ever confirm that this is the moment he was referrig to? )

Dumbledore also says that Harry's saving Wormtail will ultimately be a good thing, because Wormtail now owes Harry a life debt. But why? What if Wormtail never chooses to pay back that debt? He's a wretched little coward, isn't he? But what if he has to pay back that debt?

If a wizard's debt is ancient magic - the way Lily's blood sacrifice is ancient magic - perhaps there is some kind of consequence for the wizard who does not pay back this debt.

Now going back to Snape and James. Not only did Snape not pay back his debt, he is responsible for killing the person to whom he owes the debt. That can't be good! What if there is some sort of magical consequence for this, that Dumbledore knows about, that compels Snape to rectify his mistake.

This would explain why Dumbledore knows Snape is sincere (he has to be, the ancient magic requires him to pay his debt) and why Snape regrets that the Potters were killed (their being killed has put him in this position), but still hates James (he always hated James, the fact that Snape's life is ruined because of the unpaid debt is even more twisted logic for hating him)

The downside of this is that it makes Snape still essentially an evil character, only doing good because he has to. And I think JKR wants us to eventually see good in Snape.

 

[BostonTink85]

wow....I just read all 25 pages and I can pretty much sum it all up with just "wow" lol You guys have some awesome theories and a lot of them make complete sense so it will be interesting to see what plays out in the actual book. Not sure if I will have much to contribute, but I'm now inspired to go reread book 6 in anticipation for book 7 and to maybe add some theories to this thread!

 

[CobraBubbles]

Very interesting theory. Just like all of my crackpot theories, I don't think that it's 100% going to work out, but definitely think that the life debt stuff has soemthing to do with something so you might be on to something.

I wonder how we will find out ANY of this. A Pensieve? DD comes back to life to tell us this? Voldy starts monologuing...HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW!

 

[BostonTink85]

I was looking at the timeline and it says that "JKR has told us that this was Dumbledore's last letter to Petunia, but not his first" about the letter left with Harry when he is left at the Dursley's. Does anyone know anything about this, or has it been discussed anywhere?? It's would be interesting to find out what the previous letters to her were about...

 

[SueM in MN]

I was looking at the timeline and it says that "JKR has told us that this was Dumbledore's last letter to Petunia, but not his first" about the letter left with Harry when he is left at the Dursley's. Does anyone know anything about this, or has it been discussed anywhere?? It's would be interesting to find out what the previous letters to her were about...

That's one big mystery. The only letter we knew about before was the one that was left on the Dursley's doorstep when Harry was left there as a baby.

 

[LadyBears]

Exactly. Snape's redemption HAS TO have something to do with the Potters. It has to be something that will smack Harry in the face in book 7. Because, let's face it, everything is centered around Harry. Like in book 4, I was all mad (when I first read it) because there was this stupid tri-wizard tournament that Harry couldn't even enter because he was too young. Well, we all know what happens. It would be silly that Snape's redemption was that he just had a change of heart (DD wouldn't believe that, he's one of the smartest wizards ever) or that Voldy was being mean to him...or whatever.

Perhaps he asked Lily's life to be spared, and LV said something like 'Kill DD and I'll spare Lily' instead of going to kill DD (or heck - think of the Draco situation, maybe he tries). Snape wouldn't trust LV, but he would know DD would be more powerful. He tells DD what happened so DD hides Snape and his family (for instance we don't really know what happened to his parents) just like he was going to hide Draco and his family, and tries to keep the Potters safe, but that gets all messed up. I know that this is wild trajectory, but what I like about this theory is the parallel between Draco and Snape. DD said he could hide Draco's family with assurance...as if he had done it before...hmm.

Also, HI, my name is Jeni, I will probably have a new crack theory EVERYDAY

That is a great thought. I am re-reading OTP. After Mr. Weasley was put in the hospital & Harry is thinking about "running away" back to Hogwarts, he has a conversation with Phineas Nigellus Black's portrait.
"I thought," said Phineas Nigellus, stroking his pointed beard, "that to
belong in Gryffindor House you were supposed to be brave? It looks
to me as though you would have been better off in my own house.
We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For Instance, given the
choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."

So, it is very possible that Snape & Draco's families have done things to save themselves instead of doing whatever it was they were supposed to!

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Well here's my crackpot theory for the week then! And I have totally broken my "no more than two what-if's rule".

I have been struggling for a long time to come up with a reason why Snape would regret that the Potters were killed because of his action, and yet still hate James as powerfully as he does.

I have never liked the Lily angle, because it doesn't seem likely that Voldemort would grant any of his followers a favor, beyond not killing them!

So I started thinking and re-reading.

At the end of Sorcerer's Stone, Dumbledore tells Harry that James once saved Snape's life, but he doesn't say how. Dumbledore says that Snape owes James a life-debt, but doesn't really explain what that means either.

In Prisoner of Azkaban, Lupin tells the story of the infamous prank, where Sirius tried to send Snape off to werewolf Lupin, but James stops him. (Does Dumbledore ever confirm that this is the moment he was referrig to? )

Dumbledore also says that Harry's saving Wormtail will ultimately be a good thing, because Wormtail now owes Harry a life debt. But why? What if Wormtail never chooses to pay back that debt? He's a wretched little coward, isn't he? But what if he has to pay back that debt?

If a wizard's debt is ancient magic - the way Lily's blood sacrifice is ancient magic - perhaps there is some kind of consequence for the wizard who does not pay back this debt.

Now going back to Snape and James. Not only did Snape not pay back his debt, he is responsible for killing the person to whom he owes the debt. That can't be good! What if there is some sort of magical consequence for this, that Dumbledore knows about, that compels Snape to rectify his mistake.

This would explain why Dumbledore knows Snape is sincere (he has to be, the ancient magic requires him to pay his debt) and why Snape regrets that the Potters were killed (their being killed has put him in this position), but still hates James (he always hated James, the fact that Snape's life is ruined because of the unpaid debt is even more twisted logic for hating him)

The downside of this is that it makes Snape still essentially an evil character, only doing good because he has to. And I think JKR wants us to eventually see good in Snape.

That doesn't seem as crackpot as you may think. It actually makes pretty good sense. I mean obviously we don't know the details so we can't know for sure, but it is a pretty sensible theory as far as I can see. I can totally see Snape doing good only because he has to, because his life actually depends on it. That would make a lot of sense because it goes hand in hand with his hatred of James. He hates him but regrets what happened because it put HIM in such a sticky situation.

Good thinking, that will be something to ponder for sure Although I have to wonder that if JKR wants us to see some kind of redeeming quality in Snape if she would use that "only doing good because he has to" angle. I would personally see that as more cowardly than anything else. If he were doing something to help the good guys and working against Voldemort, not because his life depended on it, but because he wanted to, that would definitely make him look like more of a good guy.

 

[N&B'smom]

That is a very interesting theory regarding Snape and his debt. I can't wait to see how all of this plays out in the last book. Although I'll be sad when it's all over and there are no more Harry Potter books to look forward to.

Shelby

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Okay...oh em gee. Has anyone else seen the new promo pictures for the play Daniel Radcliffe is doing, Equus?

All I can say is...

Harry is ALL grown up, lemme tell ya!

 

[CobraBubbles]

Okay...oh em gee. Has anyone else seen the new promo pictures for the play Daniel Radcliffe is doing, Equus?

All I can say is...

Harry is ALL grown up, lemme tell ya!

You should share them

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

You should share them

I would but I don't know if they are appropriate for the DIS I mean, he's not naked or anything...well not completely....it's just...yeah. You know what, here's the link:

http://trent.blogspot.com/

Just scroll down till you see it...it's not that far down. And there's a big, white horse in one so they're kinda hard to miss.