Major Policy Change in DVC/DCL Trade Policy UPDATE ON POST #193

[Mickey4me!]

Isn't booking on points technically 'more expensive' than booking in cash anyways? Perhaps this was partially done to cut calls into Member Services and reduce are dues (or at least keep them in check).

I'm guessing that the fee they charge to use your points for DCL more than cover any additional costs incurred by MS.

 

[CarolAnnC]

Isn't booking on points technically 'more expensive' than booking in cash anyways? Perhaps this was partially done to cut calls into Member Services and reduce are dues (or at least keep them in check).

Technically, the DCL cruises use more points so that reduces calls to MS as the other alternative would be for the Members to call in multiple times to make reservations for those same points. Had I not been able to change my cruise date, for example, then I would have been calling MS lots and lots of times to book trips for those almost 1500 points that I would have rented out to multiple reservations.

 

[jdg345]

I'm guessing that the fee they charge to use your points for DCL more than cover any additional costs incurred by MS.

Still though, I thought cash was more 'efficient' over points?

And that fee I thought went to DCL, not to DVC. If it cuts the calls and lowers are dues (or keeps them in check), that might just be icing on the cake for them.

Of course, it could also be due to people hoarding points ahead of the new ship and everyone trying to book at the same time. Since DVD needs to pay DCL in cash for your points, it makes sense that it could be a cash flow issue as well with more money going out to DCL than money coming in via cash reservations at DVC resorts.

I don't really use this 'perk' very often though since it seems like I can rent less points than what the exchange requires and pay for the cruise in cash.

 

[jdg345]

Technically, the DCL cruises use more points so that reduces calls to MS as the other alternative would be for the Members to call in multiple times to make reservations for those same points. Had I not been able to change my cruise date, for example, then I would have been calling MS lots and lots of times to book trips for those almost 1500 points that I would have rented out to multiple reservations.

Perhaps, but technically the change to the booking window, the removal of DBD, and the waitlist change would cause more calls to MS as walking is more 'resource intensive' as is calling daily to partially fill a WL -- yet, DVC still used Call Reduction as part of their reasoning for the change.

Perhaps overwhelming member demand for this change spurred this too!

 

[CarolAnnC]

Perhaps, but technically the change to the booking window, the removal of DBD, and the waitlist change would cause more calls to MS as walking is more 'resource intensive' as is calling daily to partially fill a WL -- yet, DVC still used Call Reduction as part of their reasoning for the change.

Perhaps overwhelming member demand for this change spurred this too!

Until a week ago, booking a cruise via MS required one phone call only. I know I never made more than one phone call to make the reservation, until this time. I have not head that "call reduction" was a reason given by DVC for halting the cruise bookings.

Anyway, with the cruise being the number one trade out for DVC Members, it would make no sense that members requested to be shut out of booking a cruise for the next 13 months.

Just a reminder here - this thread is not going to become a "debate" on cost effectiveness of booking cruises on cash versus points. That topic always heads south quickly. Thanks all.

 

[JimMIA]

And that fee I thought went to DCL, not to DVC.

No, it goes to DVC. That $95 fee is now charged across the board for just about any non-DVC use of points, including RCI exchanges.

$95, incidentally, is not a particularly high fee. Wyndham charges $189 for RCI exhanges I believe.

What is very unusual is that DVC charges that same $95 on exhanges into DVC from RCI. Other timeshare owners call DVC's fee an "extortion fee."

 

[JimMIA]

Perhaps overwhelming member demand for this change spurred this too!

Yeah, whenever anything negative happens, you can always suspect it's another "streamlining to enhance the ownership experience due to member feedback."

However, the MS Leadership Team member I talked to was quite specific that there had not been any change of policy at all.

We can book cruises two years in advance, and he said they simply sold out because of the new ship and better itineraries. Others have posted that there is not much availability left for Oct-Dec 2011 either, so that will probably not be available fairly soon.

 

[CarolAnnC]

Yeah, whenever anything negative happens, you can always suspect it's another "streamlining to enhance the ownership experience due to member feedback."

However, the MS Leadership Team member I talked to was quite specific that there had not been any change of policy at all.

We can book cruises two years in advance, and he said they simply sold out because of the new ship and better itineraries. Others have posted that there is not much availability left for Oct-Dec 2011 either, so that will probably not be available fairly soon.

Interesting, as I was told it specifically is a new policy change. There are so many stories being told to various Members who have contacted, or been contacted by DVC at this point.

Either way it is not good. If it is an existing "policy" then it is obviously one that was not put in writing nor even verbally given to Members. What are the parameters for this? Is anything actually written down, or is this again all verbal.. I was also specifically told that this new policy "may" be in effect for 2012, too. That is currently being discussed, I was told.

I guess until we Members actually see something in writing, we will just have to take all the "stories" with a grain of salt. I for one, am anxiously awaiting for the particulars to be put out there for the whole Membership to be made aware of.. No communication via email, member website, nor any publication that I have seen.

 

[JimMIA]

I think there are possibly different stories because there are actually three different groups of people affected -- those trying to make new cruise reservations, those trying to change dates on existing reservations, and those trying to convert existing cash reservations to points.

For new reservatons, obviously if there is no availability there is no availability.

For those trying to change dates like you were, CarolAnn, logically availability would depend on what availability means to DVC. If they have a restriction on the total number of points cruises, then a change of dates should make no difference -- you are canceling one cruise and rebooking = same number of cruises. However, if each cruise has a specified number of cabins available for points that's a very different situation and tight availability could make your change impossible.

The people trying to convert from cash to points get caught either way. If there is a total maximum, they're out of luck. If there is a seperate max for each cruise, they could be out of luck.

When I talked to the Leadership Team member, I don't think they were aware of, or had even anticipated, the issue with people converting from cash reservations to points...but obviously they had to go back and look at that.

Communications:
DVC is notoriously bad about member communications, with the classic example being people valet parking their cars free at night and waking up to learn they owed $10!

However...if there was NO policy chage -- if this issue is nothing more than an availability problem as they say, the lack of communication makes perfect sense. They never communicate lack of availability -- they'd drive us and themselves nuts if they did.

The truth is, we don't really know what happened. But I think we can all see that their explanation of lack of availability (which has happened previously, BTW -- this is NOT the first time) is quite consistent with the actions they have taken...or have not taken.

I know many people have been adversely affected, and I certainly understand the emotions involved, but the more I learn and the more I see DVC trying to resolve issues, the more I'm convinced that their side of the story is very plausible -- no change of policy, simple lack of availability, let's work together to resolve as many of the disruptions as we can.

 

[jdg345]

Until a week ago, booking a cruise via MS required one phone call only. I know I never made more than one phone call to make the reservation, until this time. I have not head that "call reduction" was a reason given by DVC for halting the cruise bookings.

Unfortunately, we haven't heard anything official on this at all. I think that's one of the biggest issues these days. It seems they have a wonderful notification system for some things, but not so much for others.

"Call Reduction" has always been a popular reason in the past, even if it doesn't necessarily make sense.

Anyway, with the cruise being the number one trade out for DVC Members, it would make no sense that members requested to be shut out of booking a cruise for the next 13 months.

Ah, I would agree with you here; that was said more tongue in cheek as in the past it was used as a rationale for less-than-popular changes.

Just a reminder here - this thread is not going to become a "debate" on cost effectiveness of booking cruises on cash versus points. That topic always heads south quickly. Thanks all.

Understood, and that was not really the intent of my query. It was more to rationalize how big a deal this was for the membership as a whole. While it may be the number one trade out, I would suspect that it is a minority of members that use their points in this way. And as such, it may indeed have been done to curb costs of MS and in turn, our dues. Especially if it does turn out to be cash flow related.

 

[jdg345]

No, it goes to DVC. That $95 fee is now charged across the board for just about any non-DVC use of points, including RCI exchanges.

$95, incidentally, is not a particularly high fee. Wyndham charges $189 for RCI exhanges I believe.

What is very unusual is that DVC charges that same $95 on exhanges into DVC from RCI. Other timeshare owners call DVC's fee an "extortion fee."

Ah, that is very unusual, and is also probably the source of my confusion on the matter. I agree that it is not a particularly high fee, so even if it does go to DVC, it may not be enough to cover the costs of the transaction.

Thank you for the heads up!

 

[CarolAnnC]

Right Jim, and I see this as possibly a DCL issue rather than a DVC issue. DCL may not be compensated back as quickly (or as fully) as they would like for the trade out points.

The problem I see with their availability excuse is that we now have 3 DCL ships available next year for booking (and 4 coming the following year) So overall there are far more cruises available to book and fill than ever. That plus with the increase of memberships sold, there are more members seeking to book cruises perhaps, but also there are many more cruises available to choose from.

Whatever the case is, I believe a communication from DVC to the membership is in order, rather than having individuals find out bit by bit via contacting MS. Think of how many members out there do not read the DIS and will be finding this out as time goes on through default.

I still have faith DVC will work on rectifying this. But, while working on the solution, they need to address the membership with some official word on the situation via notification..

 

[jdg345]

Yeah, whenever anything negative happens, you can always suspect it's another "streamlining to enhance the ownership experience due to member feedback."

Ah! At least someone picked up on my sarcasm!

However, the MS Leadership Team member I talked to was quite specific that there had not been any change of policy at all.

*sigh* and the differing stories just cause more and more confusion. I don't understand how we consistently manage to pick up notifications from DVD Marketing with regards to buying something; yet, have very little luck in getting these types of notifications. It's tough to excuse away as a mistake anymore because it seems to be the status quo now for a half dozen 'less-than-popular' changes.

We can book cruises two years in advance, and he said they simply sold out because of the new ship and better itineraries. Others have posted that there is not much availability left for Oct-Dec 2011 either, so that will probably not be available fairly soon.

I think a lot of it may have to due with the new ship. They advertised the new ships and itineries way in advance. Far enough so that members had plenty of time to bank and push forward points for an 'inagural' cruise of sorts. It being a temporary injunction due to an imbalance makes perfect sense. Of course, if it doesn't make a ton of waves (no pun intended) overall, it might be something that becomes permanent if they can find a cost savings in it.

 

[jdg345]

Right Jim, and I see this as possibly a DCL issue rather than a DVC issue. DCL may not be compensated back as quickly (or as fully) as they would like for the trade out points.

The problem I see with their availability excuse is that we now have 3 DCL ships available next year for booking (and 4 coming the following year) So overall there are far more cruises available to book and fill than ever. That plus with the increase of memberships sold, there are more members seeking to book cruises perhaps, but also there are many more cruises available to choose from.

But their availability excuse still holds some water. If people have been hoarding points for the inagural cruises, it may just be more volume than the system was ready to handle. Kinda like when a new resort is launched and it becomes impossible to trade in at 7 months the first year. Demand dies down after a year or two and the 7 month window becomes feasible again.

Whatever the case is, I believe a communication from DVC to the membership is in order, rather than having individuals find out bit by bit via contacting MS. Think of how many members out there do not read the DIS and will be finding this out as time goes on through default.

Agree 110%. I am very dissappointed in DVC communication. And even if it is an availability issue as Jim said, considering the length of the blackout, an annoucement is warranted -- especially if it may affect cruises all the way into 2012.

I still have faith DVC will work on rectifying this. But, while working on the solution, they need to address the membership with some official word on the situation via notification..

I won't hold my breath. It may be sometime next week before we hear anything, if at all.

 

[JimMIA]

Right Jim, and I see this as possibly a DCL issue rather than a DVC issue.

I asked that specific question and was told no. No problem with DCL; they just ran out of the alloted points cruise inventory because of new ship, new itineraries, etc.

The problem I see with their availability excuse is that we now have 3 DCL ships available next year for booking (and 4 coming the following year) So overall there are far more cruises available to book and fill than ever.

Right -- problem is, a new ship means that every DCL cruiser out there wants to try the new ship. New itineraries mean every DCL cruiser wants to try at least one of them. That excitement could well cause a big spike in demand that would outstrip whatever increased capacity there was. That's the explanation I was given, and it sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Whatever the case is, I believe a communication from DVC to the membership is in order, rather than having individuals find out bit by bit via contacting MS.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, CarolAnn, but if the only issue really is availability...what would you have them say? "Y'all book early?"

And where do you draw the line? Should they send each member an email in November 2010 reminding us that the Thanksgiving - New Years period is the most difficult time of the year to book at any WDW DVC resort and the 11 month booking window is opening soon?

Think of how many members out there do not read the DIS and will be finding this out as time goes on through default.

Well, at least you were able to alert those who do read the DIS, and hopefully a couple of additional members' cruises will be saved.

 

[CarolAnnC]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, CarolAnn, but if the only issue really is availability...what would you have them say? "Y'all book early?"

And where do you draw the line? Should they send each member an email in November 2010 reminding us that the Thanksgiving - New Years period is the most difficult time of the year to book at any WDW DVC resort and the 11 month booking window is opening soon? Well, at least you were able to alert those who do read the DIS, and hopefully a couple of additional members' cruises will be saved.

I have to disagree, this was not just an every day typical availability issue with booking. There was no restriction on countless cruises, dates and categories on Thursday August 19, and on Friday August 20 there was a halt to any booking through September 2011. That is a fact that is acknowledged by DVC. Until that point in time, when calling in to book a cruise there would be dates filled, categories filled, etc. But no complete moratorium such as went into effect last week. If there were restrictions or a "policy" in place prior to August 20 that could have precipitated this, well I was never aware of it. I have never heard it mentioned, and never seen it published. Until that day when the halt to bookings occurred. DVC should not have told me to call back that Sunday in that case, if they were actually aware of this policy and its imminent implementation. I believe they were not aware, and I also believe that this was precipitated by DCL..

This was an unusual move, and should have been addressed definitely by now over a week later, with the general membership.

 

[Petraman]

OK... just finished my talk with MS Leadership Team. The gentleman was very informative and even took responsibility for some of the DVC miscalculations. Much of this has been mentioned, but I will share their responses to each question.... hopefully between all of our responses we will find some sense of what happened and where we are going

Question #1 - What happened with DCL shutting down ressies until October?

DVC negotiates with DCL each fiscal year (which is Oct-Sep... thus the reason bookings shut down until next fiscal year in Oct 2011) for a cash value they will pay to DCL to allow DVC members to book. DVC pays cash to DCL for us, then uses the points we use for the cruise to book cash ressies at DVC resorts in WDW, etc. Each fiscal year, they put a ceiling on ... a) how much they will spend in DCL ressies, and b) How many points they will take in to convert into cash ressies. Their thinking is if they book too many cash rooms from points, then ressies become even more difficult for DVC members to be able to book when they want to use the WDW resorts, so they try to limit how many cash ressies. He did reiterate this is NOT a policy change. It is a system that has always been in place, but they had not reached the threshold like this until now. As far as future ressies, you can absolutely book from Oct 2011 on because that is a new fiscal year, your ability to book then is only limited by actual availability, and there will be no actual decision on limiting ressies/increasing points for the new fiscal year until we are much closer to the new fiscal year in Oct 2011.

Question #2 - How did you run out all of a sudden for every cruise and how does the wait list work?
The reason they all ran out at once is that DVC/DCL does not limit how many people can cruise on points on individual cruises. It is an overall threshold of cruises that can be done, not based on individual cruise dates. So once the threshold of "total" cruises was met, that meant there were no more cruises that could be booked. This also means that for those of you that are on a wait list, you don't have to wait until someone cancels on your particular cruise, you just need someone to cancel ANY cruise, then they make that slot available to whoever is next in line. I am sure there may be some limitations (3- day cancelled replaced by 3-day only, not a 7-day, etc), but does sound a little hopeful for those who are on a list.

Question #3 When will they be making any adjustments/changes/ eliminations of the current system that exists between DVC and DCL?
No way to know when they may make adjustments, but certainly not until they get a little closer to the start of the next fiscal year (Oct 2011). The current freeze on cruises is ONLY for the current fiscal year... there is very little chance they will make any decisions about remainder of 2011 cruises, because they are part of the next fiscal year.

I also got some great insight from him about the 2 years of re-allocation of points which have drastically affected myself and many others. It was the first time someone from Disney has even attempted to give me a clear answer, and I really appreciated it.

Hope this helps.... I must say I feel relieved and hopeful. There will probably be some changes coming down the line, but it sounds like the plan is to adjust rather than eliminate. Here's hoping

 

[Brian Noble]

a new ship means that every DCL cruiser out there wants to try the new ship. New itineraries mean every DCL cruiser wants to try at least one of them. That excitement could well cause a big spike in demand that would outstrip whatever increased capacity there was. That's the explanation I was given, and it sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Indeed. If you look at the fares that DCL is getting for cruises, they are *much* higher. My wife and kids are paying an extra 40% or so for the same cruise they had this year, but in a new ship. Early this year, kids sail free was offered for the four night they took. In 2011, the same cruise already has booked all interior and ocean-view cabins at higher fares; only balconies are left (and those are much more than they were last year too.)

And don't even get me started on Alaska. The DCL fares are *much* higher than all of the competitors for much of the season, despite not going to Glacier Bay---and those cruises are selling as well.

 

[Petraman]

I have to disagree, this was not just an every day typical availability issue with booking. There was no restriction on countless cruises, dates and categories on Thursday August 19, and on Friday August 20 there was a halt to any booking through September 2011. That is a fact that is acknowledged by DVC. Until that point in time, when calling in to book a cruise there would be dates filled, categories filled, etc. But no complete moratorium such as went into effect last week. If there were restrictions or a "policy" in place prior to August 20 that could have precipitated this, well I was never aware of it. I have never heard it mentioned, and never seen it published. Until that day when the halt to bookings occurred. DVC should not have told me to call back that Sunday in that case, if they were actually aware of this policy and its imminent implementation. I believe they were not aware, and I also believe that this was precipitated by DCL..

This was an unusual move, and should have been addressed definitely by now over a week later, with the general membership.

One thing seems to have become evident, the rank and file DVC agents simply had no idea of what was coming. We have seen such a variety of responses from different CM's that seem to contradict each other. Based on what they just shared with me, I am confident there is and always has been a "policy". It was not published anywhere, and chances are, only the upper management even understood how it worked. I have a bookeeper in my business. Now I see the numbers every month; I see red ink/black ink and I have an understanding of where we are at, but that doesn't mean I know all the policies & procedures on how that money is moved from account to account... how many days before bills paid... etc.

In the same way, the CM's may not have any idea of the actual inventory policies, so it's no wonder they all sound so confused.

Sad part is, by them not knowing and by DVC taking the "don't explain it to everyone, only to those who get mad" approach, we end up with situations like this. Not sure there is a better way, but it is still sad that these happen like this.

 

[Brian Noble]

Carol Ann has a point---this is not a garden variety event. But, anyone who has been around Disney (not just DVC but Disney as a whole) for a while now should recognize that this is not a company that likes to share bad news, ever, for any reason. Hoping that they change that culture is like hoping that Disney cast members will suddenly start pointing with a single finger. It's just not going to happen.