Lights of Winter - EPCOT archway ??

[Rip]

I think alot of us--don't want to speak for everyone-- just see alot of take away and not much give back, thats all. I know they've offered discounts, but at the same time they have raised prices on other things at the same time. Examples being stroller rental, ticket prices, parking, dining plan price has shot up while appetizers and tips have been taken away. Shorter park hours, more parties--at a substantially higher price--etc. It just doesn't seem we are getting the same bang for our buck that we were. I still love the place, and am returning in 3 weeks, but its getting harder and harder to justify our multiple trips anymore.


**
You are exactly right! This is why people are getting peeved. They are paying more for dining, tickets, parking, parties, stroller rentals etc. They are taking alot of the better food of the menus, reducing park hours, increasing parties to 4 times a week at $50 -$60 a pop per person. And I'm not talking a normal inflation cost of 2 percent a year. I am talking about 20percent PLUS! The strollers increased to 30 percent per year. And yes, they are giving less and less. Heck just last quarter (I posted on the previous page) Disney PROFITED close to 1 BILLION dollars for the QUARTER! It just doesn't make sense why they would take down a brilliant, spectacular light show during the BIGGEST HOLIDAY season of the year. As some other poster pointed out that Disney is retiring the LoW because of technology! Well, you mean to tell me they couldn't figure something out back in late January of this year to come up with something just as nice? It's ludicrous and most people are becoming fed up with Disney's Business Plan.

BTW WDSearcher's post 235 is a strawman argument. He makes a ficticious point and supports it by ficticious statements. There is no substance there at all. Sheesh.

Brunette

If you haven't noticed, there are some people here that defend each and every action taken by the mouse, no matter what it is.

They were close to discontinuing it last year, so none of his argument makes any sense or holds any validity whatsoever.

 

[Pirate Jeff]

OK ... let's look at what was happening six months ago. Hmmmm. Huge economic downturn. Attendance down. Disney scrambling to get people in the parks. Massive lay-offs company-wide. Huge discounting measures. Restructuring company-wide. Yes ... I can see how testing and restesting Christmas lights would have been a top priority.

I'm thinking that, when they came down last year, someone said "Hey -- we need to check the tech on these for next year". And the response was, "Great -- we'll do that in July." Then all of the above happened. For all we know, the guys who managed, teched and ran the LOW last year don't even WORK for WDW any more. They may have been among the lay-offs. And with all the other cost-cutting, it's conceivable that Disney said, "You're going to have to get rid of something at Epcot this Christmas ... decide." And the PTB said, "You know ... the LOW tech is basically obsolete and will be expensive to change, so let's just bag it for this year and work on it next year when there's money."

The castle lights were all converted (at great expense, likely) to LED last year, so they're a whole different animal. But I can guarantee you that they, too, have a shelf life, and a time will come when Disney will decide that the "sparkling Christmas ice lights" will have completed their run and they will go away and be replaced (or not) with something new. Every show at Disney has a lifespan. And, while you may say, "You've got plenty of money to spend on a new Fantasyland, but you take away my Christmas lights!", that's apples to oranges. It's comparing a huge capital project that will be paid for over several years to a small holiday event that needs money NOW. The two things aren't paid for from the same budget.

It's perfectly cool and fine to express disappointment about a favorite show or attraction going away, but the prevailing attitude here isn't "Oh ... I'm going to miss my favorite show", or "I'm so upset that my favorite show is going away!", or "Dear Disney -- please bring back my favorite holiday tradition" ... it's, "Those stupid money-grubbing people at Disney keep cutting everything to save a buck." There's virtually no understanding of the bigger picture.

How interesting.

You are making conclusions from your previous speculations. Not sure how that is a solid way to make a point.

I've been an AP holder for many years. I"ve been to all the parks hundreds of times, literally and have witnessed some intresting transformations over the years. Being an AP for so long, it should be clear that I love Disney World and all things there. I also understand, that to keep the "magic" as so many love to say, costs money and if Disney loses "money", the magic goes away for everyone.

There is a point however, where making money becomes gouging as in my opinion, we are now seeing. Changes over the past couple of years have proven that the priority is the bottom line. Go to a buffet at BOMA, aside from the major price increase, look at the food offering. Now a Sirloin Roast in lieu of Prime Rib. It isn't the same. Parking, my how they seem to raise the price every year....., it's gone up over 75% in the past five years alone!

And ever year, more and more is being eliminated. But there's always folks that don't mind paying more and getting less. I love Disney, but I don't love the way they are taking advantage of me by trying to chisel every dime out of my pocket. And as the "majic" slowly disappears along the way, the appeal of Disney diminishes a little more by attrition.

When Horizons was shut down some years ago, I was dissappointed. At the time however, they replaced it with a much better attraction, Mission Space. A few years ago, The Wonders of Life Pavillion closed for the final time. The building is still there and there are no plans to do anything with it. Point being, that if something is being taken away, if it isn't replaced with something else that's better, it is making the Disney experience less appealing and will ultimately, keep people away or going to Universal.

The Lights of Winter at EPCOT? It will not be the same without them. That, the other acts of greed by Disney, and this new version of Mickey (Evil Mickey) that is on the horizon, may just prompt me to not renew my AP anytime soon.

I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment, no matter how much apologizing people like you do for it. Just my opinion.

 

[doconeill]

If you haven't noticed, there are some people here that defend each and every action taken by the mouse, no matter what it is.

They were close to discontinuing it last year, so none of his argument makes any sense or holds any validity whatsoever.

Not sure who exactly you are referring to. I haven't seen anyone necessarily DEFENDING them. Myself and other are simply pointing out that there are in fact technical reasons - preventable ones, certainly, if Disney chose to put the resources towards it - with something as complex as LoW that what they are saying, although poorly put, makes sense. I don't LIKE it. I am not DEFENDING it. But I am also saying that this was not necessarily 100% a lets-spite-the-customer-because-we-can move.

And just to be certain that I am not a rosy-glasses person - I am TOTALLY POd that PI closed, mostly about Adventurers Club, since I bought into DVC in 2007 at SSR, and I believe they devalued my purchase given that the proximity to PI was a selling point. I am disappointed with recent additions that have been made to the parks while others have been left to rot. I believe Disney has a corporation has been using the parks as a tentpole for the rest to appease dividend-oriented stockholders and letting the parks suffer because of it, and is more than likely forcing the parks to maintain that profit by raising prices during such a severe depression because guests are not spending enough soft money while in the parks.

 

[WDSearcher]

Awaiting moderation:

Honestly, if this was a solo trip, I would cancel it just for the General Principal of the whole darn thing. I was not too thrilled to learn that the Twas the Night Before Christmas show was cancelled. This is just completely unacceptable. I swear every stinkin' trip they are cutting something else.

Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to the Fantasyland expansion, but this price raising left and right and the constant cuts, it's getting to be a bit much. I am totally cancelling my solo trip in the spring. They are not getting me back in the parks after this trip until they quit treating their loyal fans like we are complete morons that won't notice that Disney is not longer the company that sets the standard, but rather just another face in the crowd.

Is it still a cut if they are removing something and replacing it with something else? You can grouse at them "cutting", but it's not really a "cut" if there's still an offering, is there? What you're complaining about re: Twas is that it's been replaced and that you'll miss it. But you can't say Disney is cutting something if they remove a show and then replace it with another show. With LOW it's truly a cut. LOW is gone and it's not being replaced with anything comparable. (Just trying to understand.)

You really think that Disney is "just another face in the crowd?" I'm all for people putting their money where their mouth is and cancelling if they're so upset about a couple of shows or an attraction going away, but is Disney really just that to you? You truly see Disney as it currently is as just the same as Six Flags or Universal? (Again ... just trying to understand.)

 

[Rip]

Not sure who exactly you are referring to. I haven't seen anyone necessarily DEFENDING them. Myself and other are simply pointing out that there are in fact technical reasons - preventable ones, certainly, if Disney chose to put the resources towards it - with something as complex as LoW that what they are saying, although poorly put, makes sense. I don't LIKE it. I am not DEFENDING it. But I am also saying that this was not necessarily 100% a lets-spite-the-customer-because-we-can move.

The person I referred to gave a long and convoluted hypothetical argument excusing the decision. The excuse that Disney is giving doesn't make sense, other than they know it will not cost them one single park-day of attendance, and it will save them money. This is not a decision that was made at the last minute, and they have had plenty of time to do whatever upgrades were necessary IF that were the issue. As others have pointed out, they are going forward with a very similar thing in Tokyo, so that alone should be enough to demonstrate the absurdity of the excuse they are throwing out.

And just to be certain that I am not a rosy-glasses person - I am TOTALLY POd that PI closed, mostly about Adventurers Club, since I bought into DVC in 2007 at SSR, and I believe they devalued my purchase given that the proximity to PI was a selling point. I am disappointed with recent additions that have been made to the parks while others have been left to rot. I believe Disney has a corporation has been using the parks as a tentpole for the rest to appease dividend-oriented stockholders and letting the parks suffer because of it, and is more than likely forcing the parks to maintain that profit by raising prices during such a severe depression because guests are not spending enough soft money while in the parks.

Don't disagree with any of that.

 

[WDSearcher]

I heard about their profit report earlier today and I couldn't help but think about all the cuts here and there Disney has made in the last year. It would be one thing if all these cuts came because they were not making any profit but they made HUGE profits given the state of the economy and still they cut and cut and cut but raise ticket prices.

The WALT DISNEY COMPANY made money this year, due mostly to the strength of the film division, which is currently helping bail out the theme park division. If you read past the big huge profit number (which is somehow where everyone stops reading and gets mad), you'll see this:

Disney's theme-park division, which accounts for about 30% of overall revenue, saw a 17% drop in profit as revenue slid 4.2%.

So while the company might be doing well, the theme park division is not. And the theme park division supplies a third of the company's revenue. So ... while theme parks can certainly be bailed out by other divisions, it's inaccurate to say that all the cost savings and cuts that Disney has been making in its theme parks are unwarranted. The division has to be able to make its own budget in order to survive. It can't depend on the other divisions to keep bailing it out.

 

[Rip]

Is it still a cut if they are removing something and replacing it with something else? You can grouse at them "cutting", but it's not really a "cut" if there's still an offering, is there? What you're complaining about re: Twas is that it's been replaced and that you'll miss it. But you can't say Disney is cutting something if they remove a show and then replace it with another show. With LOW it's truly a cut. LOW is gone and it's not being replaced with anything comparable. (Just trying to understand.)

You really think that Disney is "just another face in the crowd?" I'm all for people putting their money where their mouth is and cancelling if they're so upset about a couple of shows or an attraction going away, but is Disney really just that to you? You truly see Disney as it currently is as just the same as Six Flags or Universal? (Again ... just trying to understand.)

If you look at which parks have been setting the standard in terms of rides for the past 10 years, you'll find that it isn't WDW. While Disney has been cutting, scaling back, etc., their competition down the road has been doing just the opposite.

Six Flags isn't remotely in the same category as Universal or Disney.

 

[WDSearcher]

If you look at which parks have been setting the standard in terms of rides for the past 10 years, you'll find that it isn't WDW. While Disney has been cutting, scaling back, etc., their competition down the road has been doing just the opposite.

Six Flags isn't remotely in the same category as Universal or Disney.

Absolutely -- other parks have ALWAYS set the standards for thrill rides. Disney was never about that. When Disney builds a thrill ride, it builds a story along with it. If you're just about a new coaster then yes ... Universal is your park. It's easy to build a new coaster (Rip Ride Rockit) when you're taking it out of a box and not really concerned about theming. The Simpsons ride is truly remarkable, but the Harry Potter stuff isn't new -- just reworked. They're repurposing an existing area, something they haven't done since ... ever. But really, even the "new" wand technology they're using is the same thing being done at MagiQuest venues in Wisconsin Dells and Myrtle Beach.

And Universal has been cutting back too. There's virtually no entertainment in the parks any more, no characters outside of the specific kids' areas, and even those are cut. Atmosphere groups? Not really. Restaurant menues have changed and gotten smaller, with fewer options; merchandise isn't as updated as it used to be. The parks have fewer CMs on the streets and there are a lot of areas looking old and in need of a paint job. But the thing is ... no one complains about that stuff at Universal because Universal is all about roller coasters. Keep the roller coasters open and who cares about the chipped paint? While at Disney, it's all about the chipped paint. They're criticized for chipped paint because people hold Disney to a higher standard than Universal. (It's something Disney did to itself, granted, but still.)

Universal has been making a lot of cuts -- in employee ranks as well as in offerings and services in the parks. But hey -- they're building Harry Potter, so no one cares.

 

[WDSearcher]

and yet they raised prices....and parking prices i believe

Oh come on. People always say this as if it personifies the "big bad greedy Disney" philosophy. Like Disney is raising prices and everyone else is giving stuff away.

Look around you. Who DIDN'T raise their prices last year? Universal did. Twice. SeaWorld? Three times. It costs more for groceries, concerts, parking, books, CDs, movies, utilities, rent, airfare, gas, babysitting, toys, clothes, cable ... everything. With the exception of the sale items at Wal-Mart, everyone raised their prices. But when Disney does it, it's mean and money-grubbing and greedy. Because apparently Disney should keep everything exactly the same and not react to the economy at all, because Disney is made of magic.

 

[WDSearcher]

If you haven't noticed, there are some people here that defend each and every action taken by the mouse, no matter what it is.

There are also some peole here who criticize each and every action taken by the mouse, no matter what it is.

And then ... some of us just like to argue and play devil's advocate.

 

[WDSearcher]

BTW WDSearcher's post 235 is a strawman argument. He makes a ficticious point and supports it by ficticious statements. There is no substance there at all. Sheesh.

Brunette

Everyone else here is doing basically the same thing. Getting all mad at Disney for taking away a show and then speculating on what the "real" reasons are and then using that to spiral into yet another conversation about how Bob Iger makes $30 million a year. No substance there at all either. But yet I get yelled at for posting an opposite opinion. Sheesh indeed!

 

[kenny]

I think what upsets me is that Disney is cutting back on the little things that made it so magical. While yes, they are adding things back it seems to me at least that the additions are only things to draw more people/make more money.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for making more money and from a business stand point it does make sense to cut something that doesn't make money (LOW) to add something that will.

But there is also something to be said for loyal customers and don't bite the hand that feeds you.

LOW, while it was a great display did not draw people to Epcot. While maybe some will disagree, I don't think many people said, let's go to Epcot for the LOW, like they do for Osbourne lights. From a business stand point it makes sense for them to spend money on something that will generate them more money.

However, it would be nice once in a while if Disney "took one for the team" sort of speak and did something that made their loyal fan base happy.

 

[thesupersmartguy]

Reported today:

Epcot Pulls Plug On Holiday Lights

Friday, November 13, 2009 4:52:21 AM

Disney says it has retired the Lights of Winter display at Epcot, citing obsolete technology to run the lights. (2)

LAKE BUENA VISTA -- A holiday icon at Walt Disney World will not light up the skies at Epcot this year.

Disney announced the illuminated arches of its annual Lights of Winter display has officially been retired.

The gateways that lighted up the entrance to Epcot’s World Showcase area have entertained guests for years, dancing to various Christmas carols, but Disney said the technology needed to operate the lights is obsolete.

The move has left many Disney fans disappointed, but it’s not lights out everywhere in Walt Disney World.

The Osborne Family Spectacle of Dancing Lights will remain on the Streets of America at Disney’s Hollywood Studios.

Full story here: http://www.cfnews13.com/Entertainment/HeyJohn/2009/11/12/epcot_pulls_plug_on_holiday_lights.html

 

[thesupersmartguy]

Epcot Pulls Plug On Holiday Lights
Friday, November 13, 2009 4:52:21 AM


Disney says it has retired the Lights of Winter display at Epcot, citing obsolete technology to run the lights.​

LAKE BUENA VISTA -- A holiday icon at Walt Disney World will not light up the skies at Epcot this year.

Disney announced the illuminated arches of its annual Lights of Winter display has officially been retired.

The gateways that lighted up the entrance to Epcot’s World Showcase area have entertained guests for years, dancing to various Christmas carols, but Disney said the technology needed to operate the lights is obsolete.

The move has left many Disney fans disappointed, but it’s not lights out everywhere in Walt Disney World.

The Osborne Family Spectacle of Dancing Lights will remain on the Streets of America at Disney’s Hollywood Studios.



Full story here: http://www.cfnews13.com/Entertainment/HeyJohn/2009/11/12/epcot_pulls_plug_on_holiday_lights.html

So sad to see it go.

 

[TinkerBelle920]

I will not be there this Holiday season but that still makes me sad

 

[Rip]

Absolutely -- other parks have ALWAYS set the standards for thrill rides. Disney was never about that. When Disney builds a thrill ride, it builds a story along with it. If you're just about a new coaster then yes ... Universal is your park. It's easy to build a new coaster (Rip Ride Rockit) when you're taking it out of a box and not really concerned about theming. The Simpsons ride is truly remarkable, but the Harry Potter stuff isn't new -- just reworked. They're repurposing an existing area, something they haven't done since ... ever. But really, even the "new" wand technology they're using is the same thing being done at MagiQuest venues in Wisconsin Dells and Myrtle Beach.

There is a common misconception that Universal is all about thrill rides. They have 3 coasters, and I suppose you could kinda call The Mummy a coaster, but it's certainly much more technological than that. MIB, Shrek 4D, Spiderman, the Simpsons aren't thrill rides under any stretch, and Disney still doesn't have anything close to any of them. The ride portion of HP is absolutely new, so I'm not sure where you're getting your information. As a matter of fact, that is the primary reason for the recent Sum of all Thrills addition to Epcot, though what will be done in HP will be far more complex.

And Universal has been cutting back too. There's virtually no entertainment in the parks any more, no characters outside of the specific kids' areas, and even those are cut. Atmosphere groups? Not really. Restaurant menues have changed and gotten smaller, with fewer options; merchandise isn't as updated as it used to be. The parks have fewer CMs on the streets and there are a lot of areas looking old and in need of a paint job. But the thing is ... no one complains about that stuff at Universal because Universal is all about roller coasters. Keep the roller coasters open and who cares about the chipped paint? While at Disney, it's all about the chipped paint. They're criticized for chipped paint because people hold Disney to a higher standard than Universal. (It's something Disney did to itself, granted, but still.)

Actually, no, they have beautifully themed areas and, with only 3 roller coasters, they certainly aren't "all about coasters". While there have been some cutbacks, it isn't anything like what Disney has done. Counter service restaurants have done what you say, but none of the others have. I realize Disney is your park and all, but they are slowly but steadily falling behind the curve. I hope they turn it around, but I'm becoming more and more skeptical that they will.

Universal has been making a lot of cuts -- in employee ranks as well as in offerings and services in the parks. But hey -- they're building Harry Potter, so no one cares.

Again, they haven't been making the kind of noticeable cuts (Night before Christmas, Fantasmic, LOW, etc.) that Disney has, but originally you were the one that brought Universal into this discussion. I only pointed out that Universal has been doing a much better job of adding, renovating, and building superior rides over the past decade (Disney has had that long to come up with something to match Spiderman, and they haven't come close).

Disney is only going to be able to cut so much before enough people start spending their dollars elsewhere. After the way they changed the 4/3 deal to slap AP holders like myself in the face, I'll not be renewing mine next year. That is another area where Universal has been outperforming Disney, they treat their AP holders much better than Disney.

 

[DisMN]

Reported today:



Disney says it has retired the Lights of Winter display at Epcot, citing obsolete technology to run the lights.

OK so the Lights of Winter was obsolete technology and yet, as I understand it they still run that elderly Electrical Water "Pageant"? Pretty sure the technology for that one is on a par with Lite Brites, the childrens toy.

I'm just sayin'................

 

[NHTikiBeckie]

That is sad I hope they find new technology that can support it!

 

[FigNewton]

Official word from Disney went up at the Disney Parks blog a couple days ago and has been under discussion in the original LoW thread.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Is it still a cut if they are removing something and replacing it with something else? You can grouse at them "cutting", but it's not really a "cut" if there's still an offering, is there? What you're complaining about re: Twas is that it's been replaced and that you'll miss it. But you can't say Disney is cutting something if they remove a show and then replace it with another show. With LOW it's truly a cut. LOW is gone and it's not being replaced with anything comparable. (Just trying to understand.)

You really think that Disney is "just another face in the crowd?" I'm all for people putting their money where their mouth is and cancelling if they're so upset about a couple of shows or an attraction going away, but is Disney really just that to you? You truly see Disney as it currently is as just the same as Six Flags or Universal? (Again ... just trying to understand.)

In response to the "money where their mouth is"....WDW profit is down. Why? Because Disney is giving it away with Discounts in despearation to put heads in beds. If they didn't desperately discount, those little playgrounds for children of any age would be far more empty.

As more of those "rose colored glasses" are knocked off the bridge of our noses.....Disney may find the discounts don't work as well as they did in the "good ole days of 2009".

Disney certainly is no longer the experience it once was - as recently as 5 years ago. Everyone has a limit. Lights of Winter may not be a biggie to some...but to others, it may be the final staw for those glasses.

Disney cannot afford to loose us - ANY of us - it's most loyal guests. They ARE, however, doing the very best they can to test how far they can go before we begin to look elsewhere.