Kids running around ship unsupervised

[Wadekind]

You beat me to it.

Jeez...between kids running amok, seat savers, smokers willing to pay the $250 to smoke in cabin/veranda, etc...I'm beginning to regret booking a cruise. May be I should stop reading this forum.

Keep reading but keep in mind the perspective you are getting comes from a bunch of fanatics who love every detail about DCL. Disers tend to over analyze and debate everything about DCL to the extreme. There is no better source for preparing for or researching a DCL cruise. Our very first cruise ever on any ship I felt like I had already been there because of all the great information shared on this board.

BUT you will find that a lot of the "issues" that cause endless hand wringing on these boards aren't really that bad or are isolated. Some you would really have to be looking for and may not have even noticed if you weren't reading it here. It seems magnified here but the people on this board only represent a small portion of the passengers on any one cruise.

 

[king kamehameha]

That's one of the big reasons young families go on cruises! They can't escape and are safe

Hello, things aren't always what they seem. Just look up cruise junkie.com and click "events at sea" and you will have an idea of how " not safe" it is. This is only my opinion and others may vary, but I would think twice before letting children wander by themselves.

 

[lbgraves]

we were on the 8-3-13 sailing of the fantasy and the number of kids running like crazy up and down the hall--was nuts

it was hard to tell exactly where it was coming from

one day I went to the deck above us since it sounded like it was coming from there

but when I got there--there was no one around

our table partners said when they cruised when there kids were younger

either the kids were in the kids centers or with the parents

this was a rule set by Disney and they enforced it

not a bad rule if you ask me

....

The bolded above is NOT true. Your tablemates have a bad memory. We started cruising DCL in 2003 and the rule back then -- and now -- is that kids could have sign out privileges at age 8. Actually, back then it was automatically set up in the system for all 8+ yos to have this and the parent had to request for it to be changed once onboard if they didn't want their child to have those privileges.

 

[cgolf]

The world is a vastly different place from I grew up in the 50's and 60's. Sexual predators or child porn was not heard of. Not saying it didn't exist, but it was not prevalent in the news as it is today. When we cruised on the Big Red Boat our DD was 10. She stayed with us 24/7 because it was a "family" vacation. We were very comfortable knowing our child was safe because WE had her with us. She is now a very independent woman with a great career. Bottom line (IMHO)...the ship and the CM's are not responsible for the behavior of your children nor should they be. I understand the clubs for kids, but don't let those lull you into a false sense of security and letting them run freely thru the ship.

The worst part of the big picture for me is that when I and many on the boards grew up, you were taught in most cases to trust and look for the good in all people. Now we are sending the opposite message to our kids, trust no one and assume people could hurt you. It truly is a sad state of affairs that ultimately pushes people away from each other, I get why, but it is sad, I hope it gets better not worse

cgolf

 

[mndisfam]

So, while it is true there are scary, isolated corners everywhere you go, even on a DIsney Cruise ship, there are many many places that are very safe with tons of "helpers" all around.

In NO way am I invalidating anyone's fears. There IS danger all around, but there are also a ton of safe places with safe places all around you. I think it is so important to tell yr children all about the dangers, but its also crucial you show them the safe places.

My kids who are grown now would roll their eyes and repeat verbatim the words they heard constantly from me growing up, "look, a mom with a stroller, she would be a helper. Look, that man at Disney is selling a hundred balloons...he would be a helper, but don't leave Main Street..."

Lastly, as I jump off the soap box, I would suggest that until you get on the boat
you can't really imagine ahead of time what it will be like. Deck 3 by shops and services is a place I feel safe about and almost always deck9. Deck 4, on the other hand, could be kind of creepy...

 

[Twofebboys]

As someone that use to treat sex offenders in an inpatient facility, I will remind you that a child is more likely to be assaulted by someone they know, rather than someone they don't. Not to say that a stranger won't assault a child. But, that is what the data shows.

Now, I am NOT saying a child should have complete freedom to do as they please or that you should distrust those close to you. Instead, you should start to build a good foundation for your child of age appropriate discussions about safety, provide an environment where your children can express themselves, provide supervision, build relationships with individuals that spend time with your children, etc.

But, you can not live in a bubble. Your children m must live and experience the world. Yet, you must protect your children. There is a fine balance and what might be needed for one child might not work for another.

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

Then you are familiar with the data that stipulate that children whom are abused by someone that they know are several fold more likely be victimized by a stranger? (I don't keep those exact data on hand).

It's not an either/or scenario. That's the illogic - if I cannot prevent any harm, then why bother? Or, "they are more likely to be hurt by someone familiar, so why bother trying to protect them from harm from strangers". Makes no sense to me.

(Over)-Protecting children from disappointment or getting their feelings hurt is very different from a reasonable effort to protect them from abuse or assault.

Re: how under-reporting is stipulated: via a number of statistical modeling techniques and strong research designs (not in that order).

First of all, I was stating a fact that a person is more likely to get assaulted by someone they know. For example, parent, aunt, uncle, sibling, older sibling of a friend, leader of a group he/she joins, etc. Why? Because they trust these people and have access. It is easier to groom them. The man who jumps out of a bush and sexually assaults a child is less likely to happen. Not that is is NOT going to happen, but it is less likely to happen. (NOT that you should not prepare your child to not walk alone, know the signs of when a stranger is being inappropriate or how to fight if they are in a bad situation.)

Now, in what part did I say that it is "an either/or scenario" or "if I cannot prevent any harm why bother"? Of course it makes no sense because it does not. You make it sound that I would throw children to the wolves.

I know the dangers that are out there...I treated sex offenders. And was also an advocate for sexual assault victims.

When I treated sex offenders, I recommended to courts about aftercare, placements, restrictions, etc. I know the stories. I know the number of documented victims versus the actual number. I know how a sex offender's cycle can start. I know how hard it is to treat these offenders. I know the rates that probably reoffended.

When I say 'you can't live in a bubble", I mean you still have to live. So, instead of hiding in the closet in fear (or throwing children to the wolves), I teach my children about what is appropriate and inappropriate. When we are not with them they are left in the care of those people I trust. They know how to question, scream, go for help, etc. They know that I must have a relationship with a child's parent before they are allowed to spend time with them. They feel safe with me and tell me when they are hurting or have been hurt. I work very hard to continue to foster this kind of relationship. I also prepare my children to the best of my ability with the hope that they will stay safe, but in life you can not guarantee that.

Those close to me know that I am more likely to pick up on little cues from the sex offender population that most people do not. They know that I can read body language that most can not. I am vigilant and not afraid to speak up. They know that I am more likely to alert the police officer in the parking lot of the grocery store because a man followed me through three stores and I was told by the police officer that they had had a complaint about him earlier. They know that the fact I treated sex offenders made me even more of an advocate for sexual assault victims.

Just because not everyone can be trusted does not mean that NO one can be trusted.

 

[jimsubry]

The worst part of the big picture for me is that when I and many on the boards grew up, you were taught in most cases to trust and look for the good in all people. Now we are sending the opposite message to our kids, trust no one and assume people could hurt you. It truly is a sad state of affairs that ultimately pushes people away from each other, I get why, but it is sad, I hope it gets better not worse

But the problem with the days when you trusted everyone is that it created the world where horrible things would go on behind closed doors - and no one believed the kids who would try to talk about it. Whoever thought priests, boy scout leaders, teen babysitters, friendly neighbors and so on would be perpetrators! The "good old days" were WHEN it was happening because it was so easy.

 

[mrslaney]

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Exactly what I was thinking. My mom is he director of a crisis pregnancy center and she often brings home literature on sexual abuse. The numbers are shocking. I don't keep my children under my thumb, but there is no way I would let them out of adult supervision on a ship with that many strangers and that many cabins readily available. It's just too much if a risk for me.

 

[Ofinn]

The worst part of the big picture for me is that when I and many on the boards grew up, you were taught in most cases to trust and look for the good in all people. Now we are sending the opposite message to our kids, trust no one and assume people could hurt you. It truly is a sad state of affairs that ultimately pushes people away from each other, I get why, but it is sad, I hope it gets better not worse

cgolf

I totally agree. 99.999% of adullts would most likely jump in front of a bus to save a child, yet we always focus on the .0001 percent that would hurt a child. I refuse to raise my kids in fear. I teach them to be smart, and what to do in certain situations. I want them to be independent, confident, outgoing children that are not afraid of other people.

 

[lilpooh108]

IMO, the ship is just like a mall. If you're the kind of person to let your 8YO run around a mall unsupervised, then you'd probably do the same on the ship.

I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Rather than lecture about parenting skills, etc., here is DCL's reported incidents of ALLEGED crimes, organized by quarter.

http://disneycruise.disney.go.com/voluntary-report/

 

[dadofnicholas]

It isn't the fact that they are unsupervised, it's their behavior. People of any age running around without regard to others are dangerous in tight spaces. If they are respectful and conduct themselves appropriately, there is nothing wrong. Both of my kids know that they can and will be punished for acting inappropriately onboard, just like at home. We know several CMs and usually cruise with friends, so there is always someone who sees them throughout the day even if they aren't with us.

I agree with this. It's the behaviour. Sadly, you see in many public places, kids who act disrespectfully and inappropriately AND supervised by their parents. It doesn't bother me too much as they are out of sight and mind pretty quick but I take the opportunity to use them as examples of what NOT to do for my son. I don't expect kids to be perfect - mine surely isn't but IMHO kids can behave properly most of the time if taught/role modeled by their parents and have consistent consequences for negative behaviour. My son knows there's a corner in every public place - I've only had to use it twice in his short lifetime which is not too bad. He is a wonderfully independent, active, and happy kid who is very respectful of people around him.

Of course, kids have some responsibility for their own actions; however, as the parent, I (not others') am responsible for my kids' behaviours in PUBLIC places - kids can do as they please in the privacy of their own home. Parents can set whatever rules in their homes for their kids but must ensure their kids do their best to adhere to respectful norms/rules in public places.

 

[lilpooh108]

My son knows there's a corner in every public place -

I put my daughter in the corner on Deck 4 once, quietly by the windows (there were only 3 people around). She never acted up on that cruise again, and she was 3. I didn't choose that place on purpose, but that's where she acted up, and it was either corner her there to calm her down or have her cry the entire way to our cabin.

I agree that there's a corner "in every public place."

 

[mimmi]

Actually, you may want to check your sources (if you are citing any source, but I have the suspicion that you are stating an opinion rather that a data-supported idea RE: "the overwhelming majority of kids survive their childhood just fine").

An alarming number of children are or have been the victim of child sexual assault, with gross under-reporting of the data acknowledged.

Sadly, I have see this response frequently, "most kids are fine" or "it happens anyway, so why bother trying to stop it?"

Boggles the mind.

Like I said, I'm the person you see (or take your kid to see) -- if you are lucky enough to realize that your child has been harmed. And I don't care to gain that business. Sexual predators are so skilled in their ability to disarm the "instructions" by parents to children on how to stay safe. Then the child does not report the abuse, because s/he "should have known better." It is just too heart-breaking.

However, the gross majority of cases are not discovered, so the children suffer silently (or not so silently, but the signs are missed).

There is a difference between being over-protective and making a good (data-based) assessment of risk.

Cruise ships are not risk-free environments, contrary to the illusion of safety.

And this does not even speak to the rude and disruptive behavior (kids and adults running up and down hallways, etc).

I didn't quote a source, you are right.
It just doesn't seem realistic that most children are molested, but if you have a source that says so, I will reconsider an opinion that is based on common sense and a family of ER doctors that tell me over and over again, that the most dangerous people are family members and neighbors.

While I think that each incident is one too many, I refuse to give in to the mass hysteria of seeing bad people in every nook and corner.
I see so many of my friends being in constant panic that something could happen to their child that they are totally unaware that their children are beginning to show the same signs of paranoia.

My daughter is 10 now as are most of her friends who aren't even allowed to go to school by themselves.
Right now I'm just curious where their parents will draw the line, when their children will be allowed to acquire common life skills like taking a bus, because it doesn't look like the panic will go away anytime soon.
I don't see how constant supervision and no opportunity to handle certain situations without my interfering prepares my child for life.

 

[Twofebboys]

Then you are familiar with the data that stipulate that children whom are abused by someone that they know are several fold more likely be victimized by a stranger? (I don't keep those exact data on hand).

It's not an either/or scenario. That's the illogic - if I cannot prevent any harm, then why bother? Or, "they are more likely to be hurt by someone familiar, so why bother trying to protect them from harm from strangers". Makes no sense to me.

(Over)-Protecting children from disappointment or getting their feelings hurt is very different from a reasonable effort to protect them from abuse or assault.

Re: how under-reporting is stipulated: via a number of statistical modeling techniques and strong research designs (not in that order).

BTW, here are some sources that clearly state children are more likely to be sexually abused by someone they know:

1) The National Traumatic Stress Network -
http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/caring/ChildSexualAbuseFactSheet.pdf

This says around 75% of offenders have a relationship with the child:
"Myth: A child is most likely to be sexually abused by a stranger.
Fact: Children are most often sexually abused by someone they know and trust. Approximately three quarters of reported cases of child sexual abuse are committed by family members or other individuals who are considered part of the victim’s “circle of trust.”"

2) The American Psychological Association -
http://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/child-sexual-abuse.aspx

This breaks down the offender categories nicely:
"Most children are abused by someone they know and trust.
* An estimated 60% of perpetrators of sexual abuse are known to the child but are not family members, e.g., family friends, babysitters, childcare providers, neighbors.
* About 30% of perpetrators are family members, e.g., fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins.
* Just 10% of perpetrators are strangers to the child."

3) The Department of Justice National Sex Offender Public Website -
http://www.nsopw.gov/en/Education/CommonQuestions?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

This is the highest percentage:
"This question/answer states up to 93% of cases involve an offender the child knows.The people who sexually abuse can be immediate or extended family members (fathers, mothers, stepparents, grandparents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.). They can be neighbors, babysitters, religious leaders, teachers, coaches, or anyone else who has close contact with children.

Fact: In as many as 93 percent of child sexual abuse cases, the child knows the person that commits the abuse.4"

"References:
4. Douglas, Emily, and D. Finkelhor, Childhood Sexual Abuse Fact Sheet. Crimes Against Children Research Center, May 2005. (http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/factsheet/pdf/childhoodSexualAbuseFactSheet.pdf) (November 1, 2012)"

 

[crisi]

Different people raise their kids differently. And more importantly they weigh risk differently. I know plenty of people who think its irresponsible to let your kids play football or hockey - too much risk of injury. Or ride bikes. My girlfriend's college student spent her sixteenth year in Germany as an exchange student, then bummed around Europe by herself - but has never put non-organic food in her mouth - her mother thinks its far too risky and will cause cancer. I used to have a "friend" who was aghast we'd expose our kids to Disney - the broken families, the treatment of women in the movies (Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast are seriously warped in what they teach out daughters about relationships), the rampant commercialism - yet everyone here thinks that is ok. One of my friends has two boys out of high school - neither drives - he won't let them drive his car - too risky - so until the boys are capable of moving out, getting their own license, and their own insurance - its not happening - most of our other friends take their kids down to get their license with their sixteenth birthday. Personally, I rank "stranger danger" for younger kids pretty low - but am scared now that my daughter is fourteen of her male classmates - and will be for the next fifteen years - and my only recourse would be to keep her in a bubble.

Raise your kids. Let other parents raise theirs. If kids are being loud, or running through hallways, ask them to stop - as you'd ask and adult who was being loud in the hallways to stop. If you see a kid being harassed, step in, just like you should if you see a 28 year old woman being harassed.

 

[Bjornda]

Different people raise their kids differently. And more importantly they weigh risk differently. I know plenty of people who think its irresponsible to let your kids play football or hockey - too much risk of injury. Or ride bikes. My girlfriend's college student spent her sixteenth year in Germany as an exchange student, then bummed around Europe by herself - but has never put non-organic food in her mouth - her mother thinks its far too risky and will cause cancer. I used to have a "friend" who was aghast we'd expose our kids to Disney - the broken families, the treatment of women in the movies (Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast are seriously warped in what they teach out daughters about relationships), the rampant commercialism - yet everyone here thinks that is ok. One of my friends has two boys out of high school - neither drives - he won't let them drive his car - too risky - so until the boys are capable of moving out, getting their own license, and their own insurance - its not happening - most of our other friends take their kids down to get their license with their sixteenth birthday. Personally, I rank "stranger danger" for younger kids pretty low - but am scared now that my daughter is fourteen of her male classmates - and will be for the next fifteen years - and my only recourse would be to keep her in a bubble.

Raise your kids. Let other parents raise theirs. If kids are being loud, or running through hallways, ask them to stop - as you'd ask and adult who was being loud in the hallways to stop. If you see a kid being harassed, step in, just like you should if you see a 28 year old woman being harassed.

That is extremely well said!!!!

 

[natmom]

I didn't quote a source, you are right.
It just doesn't seem realistic that most children are molested, but if you have a source that says so, I will reconsider an opinion that is based on common sense and a family of ER doctors that tell me over and over again, that the most dangerous people are family members and neighbors.

While I think that each incident is one too many, I refuse to give in to the mass hysteria of seeing bad people in every nook and corner.
I see so many of my friends being in constant panic that something could happen to their child that they are totally unaware that their children are beginning to show the same signs of paranoia.

My daughter is 10 now as are most of her friends who aren't even allowed to go to school by themselves.
Right now I'm just curious where their parents will draw the line, when their children will be allowed to acquire common life skills like taking a bus, because it doesn't look like the panic will go away anytime soon.
I don't see how constant supervision and no opportunity to handle certain situations without my interfering prepares my child for life.

I agree, many parents are feeding anxiety and fear into their children. I have a friend who won't allow her 11 year old to walk 5 min to school. 1 busy street to cross with a crossing guard. It boggles my mind, grade 6 and not walking to school yet. My kids have been walking on their own since grade 3. They are fine, we live so close and it has taught them independence.

 

[castlegazer]

Different people raise their kids differently.

Raise your kids. Let other parents raise theirs. If kids are being loud, or running through hallways, ask them to stop - as you'd ask and adult who was being loud in the hallways to stop. If you see a kid being harassed, step in, just like you should if you see a 28 year old woman being harassed.

Good point crisi.

I am on the fence about what to do with my 9 year old this upcoming cruise.

On one hand I think I may want her to be able to leave the clubs with her older brother at certain times if they want to and I am not right there to go get them or the lines are going to be long to go get them out and it would be easier to have them meet me at the Theater.
She grew up cruising on the Magic so she is very familiar with the ship's layout and how to get to the cabin or Theater.

On the other hand I don't think it's going to be that often that I wouldn't be there to get her out of the Clubs when we need to be at the next event and more than likely it will be waaay before she is ready to leave her favorite places on the ships, the clubs, and I can't imagine her knowing when to leave even if I told her to meet me somewhere at a certain time without her brother prompting it or me coming to haul her out kicking and screaming from the clubs. She rarely ever wants to leave no matter what.

So the risk of letting her walk around unsupervised, even though I think she is a very good kid but her walking speed is always a fast paced.. some would say...jog, may not be necessary.

So I thank everyone for the thoughtful discussion on this.

 

[summerrluvv]

IMO, the ship is just like a mall. If you're the kind of person to let your 8YO run around a mall unsupervised, then you'd probably do the same on the ship.

I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Rather than lecture about parenting skills, etc., here is DCL's reported incidents of ALLEGED crimes, organized by quarter.

http://disneycruise.disney.go.com/voluntary-report/

Interesting, thanks for sharing the link!

 

[crisi]

Good point crisi.

I am on the fence about what to do with my 9 year old this upcoming cruise.

On one hand I think I may want her to be able to leave the clubs with her older brother at certain times if they want to and I am not right there to go get them or the lines are going to be long to go get them out and it would be easier to have them meet me at the Theater.
She grew up cruising on the Magic so she is very familiar with the ship's layout and how to get to the cabin or Theater.

On the other hand I don't think it's going to be that often that I wouldn't be there to get her out of the Clubs when we need to be at the next event and more than likely it will be waaay before she is ready to leave her favorite places on the ships, the clubs, and I can't imagine her knowing when to leave even if I told her to meet me somewhere at a certain time without her brother prompting it or me coming to haul her out kicking and screaming from the clubs. She rarely ever wants to leave no matter what.

So the risk of letting her walk around unsupervised, even though I think she is a very good kid but her walking speed is always a fast paced.. some would say...jog, may not be necessary.

So I thank everyone for the thoughtful discussion on this.

Have rules - at that age (IIRC) my kids left the kids club on their own provided they were 1) together and 2) either going to the room or going to meet us (or their grandparents - that was the age we cruised with the grandparents). Likewise, they could check themselves into the kids clubs - they could leave us or the room and go to the clubs. So they were one of three places - supervised with us, in the room or in the kids clubs - or in transition between those places (in which case, they were together).

Turns out with endless grandma, they never left her side

My own two cents, often said around here, is that independence is something you start teaching your kids from the moment they are born. You can't drop a kid off at college unless he has learned enough independence to do so. Now, as the mother of teenagers, I'm learning that teaching my kids to be independent, to know right from wrong, to be well behaved, was really important - because now my fourteen year old daughter goes to parties with boys and little adult supervision - she needs to know how to take care of herself - and fourteen to seventeen year old boys that are her "friends" scare me far more than strangers on a cruise ship when she is nine. My fifteen year old son has to say no to drugs and alcohol - he needs to understand the repercussions. Somedays I wish I could have wrapped them up in bubble wrap so I didn't have these worries, but if I do that, at some point I still need to let go - or they will be living in my basement when they are 30. DCL provides a RELATIVELY safe environment to grant some independence to RESPONSIBLE kids. A truck stop at night? Even I don't feel safe, not somewhere I'm letting my kids run to the bathroom.