Is Universal Orlando Repeating Disney World's Mistake?

[lockedoutlogic]

Ah I see, so 45 days on a $600 AP is around $13 a day.

Show me where I talked about fair. Maria is making some good choices IMO.

Nope...not playing this time...

...at least not until you show you have some idea of how the AP program is designed...why it's that way...and the longterm danger to the Walt Disney Company it poses if they start to try to apply "daily value" to it - or consider it some type of "untapped well"

The first quote demonstrates no insight into that.

 

[jade1]

Nope...not playing this time...

...at least not until you show you have some idea of how the AP program is designed...why it's that way...and the longterm danger to the Walt Disney Company it poses if they start to try to apply "daily value" to it - or consider it some type of "untapped well"

The first quote demonstrates no insight into that.

You missed the conversation apparently. Maria said she was paying $25 a day and went 45 days for $1,125 (see the quote below). Later clarified.

I never said that was fair or anything-just an absolute fact of her "per day" park hopper payment was actually $13 (see the quote below).

Sounds like a lot of whining to me. So you pay $80/day for 5 days and I pay $25/day for about 45 days. That's $400 compared to my $1125.

Ah I see, so 45 days on a $600 AP is around $13 a day.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You missed the conversation apparently. Maria said she was paying $25 a day and went 45 days for $1,125 (see the quote below). Later clarified.

I never said that was fair or anything-just an absolute fact of her "per day" park hopper payment was $13 (see the quote below).

Simple arithmetic when discussing annual passes is pointless.
as in wasted keystrokes...

Annual passes are like a "club membership" design...meant to open the door for more spending.

In the case of Florida residents that's even more the case.

That's what you both are not getting...so the breakdowns are meaningless...

 

[jade1]

Simple arithmetic when discussing annual passes is pointless.
as in wasted keystrokes...

Annual passes are like a "club membership" design...meant to open the door for more spending.

In the case of Florida residents that's even more the case.

That's what you both are not getting...so the breakdowns are meaningless...

Pretty sure that's what the thread is about no?

Regardless, saying a $600 pass actually cost $1,125 is worth pointing out IMO.

Agreed that repeat business from an AP costs more, its a choice either way though.

Getting a 2 say pass will cost you more than a one day, as will a 4 day over 3, or a 7 day over 6, or a 10 day over 7-not just because of the pass cost.

Annual passes are like a "club membership" design...meant to open the door for more spending.

So does a 7 day pass compared to a daily pass. The discounted days leads to more spending.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Pretty sure that's what the thread is about no?

Regardless, saying a $600 pass actually cost $1,125 is worth pointing out IMO.

Agreed that repeat business from an AP costs more, its a choice either way though.

Getting a 2 say pass will cost you more than a one day, as will a 4 day over 3, or a 7 day over 6, or a 10 day over 7-not just because of the pass cost.



So does a 7 day pass compared to a daily pass. The discounted days leads to more spending.

Length of stay or "hoppers" are not arranged in the same manner as annual passes...annual passes were designed strictly to lock in other expenses...where as length of stays try to balance return necessary to fund the operation with a "carrot" to dangle to incentivize more days...to make more ancillary.

So I'll agree that the the $1,125 is not correct...the pass costs what it costs...

On the other spectrum...you can't say passes can be looked at as cost/days used. It's not a "ticket"...it's a pass.

It's almost like at one point I might have sat through meetings that discussed this...
...wonder why?

You guys are fighting the arguments out on the fringes when the battle is in the center...

This thread highlights two ideas:
1. Should they put the screws to Florida residents...is that wise?
2. Should they do more big increase in pricing?
Will everyone swallow it? Because unlike the once every 3 years crowds...the rio tour groups...and the screen printed custom orange shirt crowds...
Passholders will remember and bite you...and they are the most loyal and not to be reckoned with...

Disneyland passholders are down...but they don't have the space and the overhead is lower. NOT the case in WDW.

 

[circus4u]

I also think it encourages people to take extra trips. One year I got an AP just so I could get TIW as we had a party of 10 and the savings more than made up the extra cost ...

... Later that year we did a 2nd trip partly due to me already having the AP and the room discount I got from having it.

Per day it was lower but in total Disney got more money out of me than normal

Agree 100%. Last annual pass we bought four years ago, we made five trips to Disney, and that was from Arizona.

 

[BigAlsGal]

Wait.....prices go up?!?

 

[jade1]

Length of stay or "hoppers" are not arranged in the same manner as annual passes...annual passes were designed strictly to lock in other expenses...where as length of stays try to balance return necessary to fund the operation with a "carrot" to dangle to incentivize more days...to make more ancillary.

Yes they are not exact, just both entice more spending.

So I'll agree that the the $1,125 is not correct...the pass costs what it costs...

My main point-thanks.

This thread highlights two ideas:
1. Should they put the screws to Florida residents...is that wise?
2. Should they do more big increase in pricing?

Agreed (Those were not my main point though), and like US, we will soon see what the new choices will be to make selections on.

 

[DDLand]

Length of stay or "hoppers" are not arranged in the same manner as annual passes...annual passes were designed strictly to lock in other expenses...where as length of stays try to balance return necessary to fund the operation with a "carrot" to dangle to incentivize more days...to make more ancillary.

So I'll agree that the the $1,125 is not correct...the pass costs what it costs...

On the other spectrum...you can't say passes can be looked at as cost/days used. It's not a "ticket"...it's a pass.

It's almost like at one point I might have sat through meetings that discussed this...
...wonder why?

You guys are fighting the arguments out on the fringes when the battle is in the center...

This thread highlights two ideas:
1. Should they put the screws to Florida residents...is that wise?
2. Should they do more big increase in pricing?
Will everyone swallow it? Because unlike the once every 3 years crowds...the rio tour groups...and the screen printed custom orange shirt crowds...
Passholders will remember and bite you...and they are the most loyal and not to be reckoned with...

Disneyland passholders are down...but they don't have the space and the overhead is lower. NOT the case in WDW.

Here's the thing about passholders...

Say you have a park that can easily, without adding much in terms of labor, scale up to 60,000 guests per day. If this park is consistently reaching 40,000 guests a day, opening the spigots of APs makes perfect sense. It's better to have the park full with lower average daily spenders than a less full park with higher paying guests.

This is the sort of environment Disney has operated in over the last 18 years. Things have begun pivoting recently though. The resort is finally growing into Disney's Animal Kingdom. The parks are getting more and more full year round (or were, until the last round of price increases).


They're now having to choose between having 60,000 high spending typical travelers and affluent Platinum Passholders during the summer, or having all those plus an additional lower spending huge amount of bottom tier AP holders fighting for a finite park capacity.

No doubt on which group Disney choose out on.

Pushing them to out of the way times, and as we've heard in other threads away from new attraction openings is all part of this strategy.

I'm still wondering whether Disney actually thought that the price increase would work in lowering attendance, or if they're freaking out.

It's stuff like that recent Sentinal Article which will be most telling...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Here's the thing about passholders...

Say you have a park that can easily, without adding much in terms of labor, scale up to 60,000 guests per day. If this park is consistently reaching 40,000 guests a day, opening the spigots of APs makes perfect sense. It's better to have the park full with lower average daily spenders than a less full park with higher paying guests.

This is the sort of environment Disney has operated in over the last 18 years. Things have begun pivoting recently though. The resort is finally growing into Disney's Animal Kingdom. The parks are getting more and more full year round (or were, until the last round of price increases).


They're now having to choose between having 60,000 high spending typical travelers and affluent Platinum Passholders during the summer, or having all those plus an additional lower spending huge amount of bottom tier AP holders fighting for a finite park capacity.

No doubt on which group Disney choose out on.

Pushing them to out of the way times, and as we've heard in other threads away from new attraction openings is all part of this strategy.

I'm still wondering whether Disney actually thought that the price increase would work in lowering attendance, or if they're freaking out.

It's stuff like that recent Sentinal Article which will be most telling...

I'll just repeat how I see it:

The parks are not overcrowded...the realities of crowds are just on everyone's mind because of the fastpass system...there were ALWAYS crowds

The one substantial gain is that there are no "dead" times anymore...the place is busy all year. But that doesn't mean they are "overcrowded"...

Perhaps they will become that way in 5-10 years...but right now adjusting passes is premature...

I can smell Disney Bs a mile away...and that "we have to increase prices to control crowds" is just that.

 

[Madonna3]

Ah I see, so 45 days on a $600 AP is around $13 a day.

Yes, that is correct, but I was using the math that was given to me to illustrate a point. His ticket has a value of $400 for 5 days making it around $80 a day. He gave me a value of $25 a day based off my pass. So, I used that number to show that yes, I got $1125 in value on a $600 pass, but I spent more on hotels and food to balance out the fact that I pay less per day in the parks.

I felt the need to clarify because I feel a little attacked about the math here. I am not saying I pay $1125 for a $600 pass, I was pointing out the value received and attempting to show how I'm actually spending more.

Sorry for the confusion, but I did enjoy the discussion it generated!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes, that is correct, but I was using the math that was given to me to illustrate a point. His ticket has a value of $400 for 5 days making it around $80 a day. He gave me a value of $25 a day based off my pass. So, I used that number to show that yes, I got $1125 in value on a $600 pass, but I spent more on hotels and food to balance out the fact that I pay less per day in the parks.

I felt the need to clarify because I feel a little attacked about the math here. I am not saying I pay $1125 for a $600 pass, I was pointing out the value received and attempting to show how I'm actually spending more.

Sorry for the confusion, but I did enjoy the discussion it generated!

Understood...it just came off confusing.

I 90% agree with your stance...Disney is threatening alienation of a very important segment of there population by doing cash grabs on annual passes.

And they can't sell "we have to to control crowds!" To anyone with a functioning ganglion and a tiny bit of experience as a Disney traveler...

This is a company in a revolving door of short term changes in course to feed its stock price...they've been schitzophrenic/erratic under this management...
...and they have as many failures as they do successes these days...at the box office and quagmires in france, China, etc.

Don't tell me you're increasing my costs 22% on the same parks and it's for my benefit...and then try to sell me a $48 strip at Le cellier that came from publix...

...not amused.

 

[Madonna3]

Though you need to look at how other guests and Disney view it. In general APs come and spend less per day in food, beverage, and merchandise. There are exceptions, but they generally don't spend as much on hotels. They also come at the most crowded times; like at nights for fireworks and on weekends/holidays.

If Disney could stuff 70,000 people into the Magic Kingdom there's no doubt they'd choose Week long visitors over APs any day. Why? Because each unique visitor has bigger vacation funds than one AP spread of 30 visits for just a nightly drop in to watch the fireworks or hangout on a Saturday.

APs are very helpful for slower times (hence the blackouts) when the parks aren't filled with normal guests.

Before you wonder, I am an AP...

I think, and I have absolutely NO research on this to support my opinion other than my opinion, that there are more pass holders like me than not. If there weren't, then I don't believe they would structure the pass the way they do. As a passholder, I can tell you I stay AWAY from the crowded times because I have the luxury of going during NON crowded times. I don't know where the belief comes from that passholders only go on weekends or crowded times.

Also, as far as spending goes. I also am not too sure about that my fellow passholders have less to spend than then week long visitors. The week long visitor is usually pretty weary toward the end of their trip after spending on hotels, meals, tickets, and other spending. I figured Disney gave us the small merch discount to get us to spend because we had it to spend. Perhaps I am a unique passholder. When my husband and I visit for the day, we usually book a deluxe room, we book at least a table meal, and we usually will pay for an upgraded experience like a fireworks party for example. Why? Because I didn't spend my money on tickets.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think, and I have absolutely NO research on this to support my opinion other than my opinion, that there are more pass holders like me than not. If there weren't, then I don't believe they would structure the pass the way they do. As a passholder, I can tell you I stay AWAY from the crowded times because I have the luxury of going during NON crowded times. I don't know where the belief comes from that passholders only go on weekends or crowded times.

Also, as far as spending goes. I also am not too sure about that my fellow passholders have less to spend than then week long visitors. The week long visitor is usually pretty weary toward the end of their trip after spending on hotels, meals, tickets, and other spending. I figured Disney gave us the small merch discount to get us to spend because we had it to spend. Perhaps I am a unique passholder. When my husband and I visit for the day, we usually book a deluxe room, we book at least a table meal, and we usually will pay for an upgraded experience like a fireworks party for example. Why? Because I didn't spend my money on tickets.

Just my 2 cents.

While it's true that APs, DVC, and Florida residents spend less per day than infrequent travelers...

The problem is that they are under this misguided idea that they can somehow get everyone on a single spending level.

They have a better shot at the fountain of youth or el dorado...

That's not a legitimate goal...they have to draw from market segments and cater to those segments. There is no other "new formula" that works.

Why? Because in recessions the "one timers" become "no timers" and you need the core of the team to step up...which is why you don't screw them now...don't poke the bear.

But what if your management doesn't care about the next recession...because they won't stick around when it starts?

How's that for corporate philosophy?

 

[tony67]

Don't tell me you're increasing my costs 22% on the same parks and it's for my benefit...and then try to sell me a $48 strip at Le cellier that came from publix...

...not amused.

If only it was the same parks - I mean look at HS. No Parade at the MK soon. The front of Epcot is a deserted strip mall. Food quality is not what it once was - and I agree the price is totally out if whack with reality - the strip at Shula in the Dolphin is 49 - a far superior cut (and aged) piece of meat for $1 more (yes I have to buy the sides and such ..but still). Thank you DDP - I very rarely eat at a Disney TS anymore - although I look forward to trying some of the new ones in DS.

I used to get the AP every year because it was a good deal and I could do two or three trips and you got some pretty great deals on the hotels.
The food in Epcot was truly outstanding and not just chain quality food at a high price made palatable because of the DDP.
Now I would rather just buy the 10 day pass and go every other year - and spend more time at Universal

Currently I don't find the changes at Universal as offensive. at least they are getting things done..and the season pass is not much more than a 4 day ticket as long as you can deal with the blackout dates. . but if they then raise it again next year I may change my mind. also I do find it ridiculous that an AP does not get free or discounted parking at the hotels - I know they don't run the hotels but they should be able to come up with something

 

[jade1]

When my husband and I visit for the day, we usually book a deluxe room, we book at least a table meal, and we usually will pay for an upgraded experience like a fireworks party for example. Why? Because I didn't spend my money on tickets.

Just my 2 cents.

Yep same here (except for about a week at a time and mostly DVC and Deluxe). Have belonged to many golf courses. Prices always go up, but the annual rate/membership is a far better way to go. Hitting the bar or lunch after is much easier not throwing down $75 or more each for the round. US on the other hand is an expensive day, about burned out there though. Hoping for a 3rd park.

 

[DrunkJam]

We have been to WDW a couple times.
2010, we spent about £14,000 for 14 nights including a YC wedding package, free dining (which works out well FOR US)
2011, we spent about £10,000 for 10 nights including PAID DDP
2017, we will spend about £14,000 for 10 nights including PAID DDP (spot the price hike)

Now, these are massively expensive holidays, and we are not secondary to AP holders as guests. HOWEVER, we are not stupid, Disney cannot run a business on people occasionally spending that kind of money. They NEED people with APs, this is there bread and butter, this is their guaranteed income, especially with the threat of recession, I can see a point for price pointed APs with black out dates, but, it makes no sense to piss off and alienate AP holders, who, lets face it, when Brexit, the Brazil issues, and global down turn predicted are the reliable, even, easier, money.

We have APs for an attraction local to us (in UK) yes, we go more to maximise the value to us, so I am BETTING WDW AP holders do this, why would they not? BUT, we go when it's quieter, cos we can, we spend MORE on merch (SOME visits), because we are not spending the same per entry on simply getting in.

Get a better job or move closer is a pointless argument. People with APs, especially those who live nearer use their entrance in a different way to one off distant travellers, they just do. The thing that WDW has to do is balance those things because, BOTH those types of consumer are beneficial to them. Ignoring EITHER is a recipe for problems.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

We used to live in Connecticut, but moved to Orlando a little over a year ago.

We used to spend MEGA $$$ back when Disney offered a better product, which included the adult entertainment of Pleasure Island. We owned roughly 1500 points with DVC, plus we paid cash for a quick visit at the Grand Floridian Royal Palm Club during December. We had Premier Oasses as we also visited DLR most years.

Our spending came to a screeching "major slow down" due to various reasons. The major one was the elimination of PI and the Adventurers Club.
Disney not only lost our sizable bar tab, but they also lost roughly 24 nights on property, of which we are signature restaurants every night... Plus a sizable bar tab with dinner. We bought all sorts of stuff from every known gift shop, as we were very proud of Disney.

Now...?? After the Disney metamorphosis of recent years..??
We have Silver passes instead of Premier. I would get the Epcot after 4, but wifey wants other parks. We still eat at some restaurants, but mostly the resorts, as the park restaurants are just not good.
We now never buy any of the Chinese made crap in the gift shops. It's cheaply made and falls apart.
We never stay on site anymore, likely do to our locale. The cleanliness is also a joke compared to what it once was.
That said, we probably would stay on site a few nights if we felt it was worthy.

So... Since we've become local to WDW we spend probably 1/10 of what we used to.
Some because we are local, but most because of the decrease in product quality.

MG

ETA: Oh Heavens I did it again... This thread is about Universal, not Disney.
When will I ever learn to not just hit the "new posts" button and not look at the forum title??
Sorry

 

[lockedoutlogic]

We used to live in Connecticut, but moved to Orlando a little over a year ago.

We used to spend MEGA $$$ back when Disney offered a better product, which included the adult entertainment of Pleasure Island. We owned roughly 1500 points with DVC, plus we paid cash for a quick visit at the Grand Floridian Royal Palm Club during December. We had Premier Oasses as we also visited DLR most years.

Our spending came to a screeching "major slow down" due to various reasons. The major one was the elimination of PI and the Adventurers Club.
Disney not only lost our sizable bar tab, but they also lost roughly 24 nights on property, of which we are signature restaurants every night... Plus a sizable bar tab with dinner. We bought all sorts of stuff from every known gift shop, as we were very proud of Disney.

Now...?? After the Disney metamorphosis of recent years..??
We have Silver passes instead of Premier. I would get the Epcot after 4, but wifey wants other parks. We still eat at some restaurants, but mostly the resorts, as the park restaurants are just not good.
We now never buy any of the Chinese made crap in the gift shops. It's cheaply made and falls apart.
We never stay on site anymore, likely do to our locale. The cleanliness is also a joke compared to what it once was.
That said, we probably would stay on site a few nights if we felt it was worthy.

So... Since we've become local to WDW we spend probably 1/10 of what we used to.
Some because we are local, but most because of the decrease in product quality.

MG

ETA: Oh Heavens I did it again... This thread is about Universal, not Disney.
When will I ever learn to not just hit the "new posts" button and not look at the forum title??
Sorry

Not to tangent...

But the scenario that you describe is the most dangerous threat to Disneys park business...and one that is completely ignored with red herring excuse around here by Disney supporters.

In the longterm...there is simply no way for them to make up the hit on business when you withdraw that kind of support. There aren't enough Brazilian tour agencies (or any money behind them...for that matter)...and there aren't enough "ma and pa and the two kids" in the American Midwest who have just been "waiting" to drop $12,000 a week on a deluxe package.

It doesn't exist. But you are still an outlier/small demographic right now...so it is brushed under the rug.

The management doesn't care because their focus isn't to have disney stronger in 50 years than it is now. Too near sighted.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I think, and I have absolutely NO research on this to support my opinion other than my opinion, that there are more pass holders like me than not. If there weren't, then I don't believe they would structure the pass the way they do. As a passholder, I can tell you I stay AWAY from the crowded times because I have the luxury of going during NON crowded times. I don't know where the belief comes from that passholders only go on weekends or crowded times.

Also, as far as spending goes. I also am not too sure about that my fellow passholders have less to spend than then week long visitors. The week long visitor is usually pretty weary toward the end of their trip after spending on hotels, meals, tickets, and other spending. I figured Disney gave us the small merch discount to get us to spend because we had it to spend. Perhaps I am a unique passholder. When my husband and I visit for the day, we usually book a deluxe room, we book at least a table meal, and we usually will pay for an upgraded experience like a fireworks party for example. Why? Because I didn't spend my money on tickets.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, during food and wine season EPCOT is definitely much more crowded Friday night and Saturday with locals/pass holders. I would think they would avoid summer and things like spring break as much as they can but if you work a typical 9-5 job you really have evenings or weekends to do your visiting

and I am sure there are a lot of passholders like you but I also know quite a few (again, locals) that will just go for a few hours at a time maybe get a snack or something but more often than not go off site for their main meals to save some money - so I am sure it is a mix

And I get what you are saying about weeklong visitors having already spent on the trip itself, but if that is the only time they are getting there that year (or for several years) they are going to make a point of getting their Christmas ornaments and other souvenirs that trip as that is their only chance.