Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate?

[castleview]

Oh, we also use that 1-4 grading system with 4s being rare, but still attainable. 3 is "meets all expectations", 4 is going beyond that. So my son's spelling tests, if he gets all standard words right he gets a 3. If he gets the 4 bonus words right he gets a 4 (1/4 point per word). My daughter, being older, doesn't really get that option, at least not every spelling test. She can, however, get a 4 in, say science by expanding on an idea. Like if their experiment is growing a plant in sun vs darkness, but she also adds another variable like watering with vitamin water vs plain, she would get a 4. Hard to achieve, but I guess that is the point.

The problem I have with it (aside from it making report cards meaningless in our house) was that my daughter could get a 3 if she got a 100 on a test and get a 3 if she scored an 85. She's now in middle school, back to numeric averages and loving knowing exactly where she stands.

 

[Colleen27]

Working with my son is neither fun or easy but it has to be done. I have to do a great deal of behavior management which includes rewards charts, etc.

And again, kids who have parents who can't or won't take the time to become part-time teachers in addition to their other obligations should just be out of luck because the schools now have to teach so much "higher order thinking" that they can't spend much time on mastering basic concepts?

I'm saying schools can't be everything for a child. They just can't and this is where parents step in. If a child that doesn't have a parent that will step in, hopefully, someone would intervene. This is actually a good topic for a different thread.

Another way to handle a child struggling is to do a 504 plan and dictate the needs of a child. You could state that the teacher would give you the math concepts for the following week on Friday so you could go over it during the weekend. You could hold your child back a year. Look for ideas that will be helpful to your child so he/she can succeed.

I don't think schools need to be everything for a child. But if the purpose of school is to educate children, they need to be doing so in a way that maximizes the odds of children succeeding. This literacy-heavy approach does just the opposite; it teaches to one particular learning style and set of strengths at the expense of those with other strengths and talents. And I don't believe a system that requires our kids attend 7 hours of classes each day, assigns another hour of homework, and then tells parents of kids who aren't getting it to add another couple hours of working on concepts at home can be defined as effective or efficient in any sense. Children can't handle 10 hour workdays, and shouldn't have to give up playing and being kids just to keep up with an elementary level education.

I'm not actually in a position where this will have much effect on my kids. But I know what we went through with my son with what was essentially a precursor to common core, and I see how his courses now are an extension of that (10 steps of 'show your work' on an algebra problem he could solve in his head - I can understand the point of one or two, to show reasoning, but this is absurd). We exhausted our options for trying to improve matters - I had to go outside of the school for testing because they didn't agree that there was an organic issue in the first place, they resisted accepting the results of that outside testing, we had a plan in place for accommodations that teachers followed when they felt like it, he was held back a year but with no additional instruction/support so that didn't help, and he started asking how old you have to be to drop out when he was in the 2nd grade.

More and more kids are having that same experience with each of these new changes, and not all of them have the advantage of an educated, middle class, SAHM who can afford private testing and tutoring and put in countless hours of time trying to improve matters both at home and at school. I'm hearing the same story over and over from friends with younger kids, and they're overwhelmed. I'm also hearing 'If this was what math was like when I was a kid, I never would have gone into computer science/engineering' from friends who were math geeks back when we were in school - they loved it because they didn't have to put everything in sentence form, because they were graded on right/wrong answers rather than subjective measures like the effectiveness of an explanation or the process used to arrive at the solution, and because it was an escape from the need to write all the time. Now every subject is English class and a whole learning/thinking style is being left out of mainstream education.

 

[nugov2]

Here's what would happen in my middle class district - budgets need to be cut, so we'll go after the highest paid teachers even if they are incredible teachers. DH's school system even started letting go of teachers right as they were about to get tenure, regardless of ability. There are plenty of people out there (the privateers pushing CC especially) that would love a quick turnover of lower paid teachers. Can unions be lightened up? Sure. But I get why tenure exists and it's unfortunate that people have spun that word into meaning "lifetime job". I would ask what exactly your administrator is doing about some of the lousy teachers in your district.

Well, if that high paid teacher is tenured you can't just go after them. That would get a law suit slapped on you. There is a process involved in letting go a tenure teacher and if they are incredible you cannot come close to properly letting them go, so there is no way that is happening.(if you tell me what state you are in I will give you the steps involved in removing a tenured teacher. I did a lot of work with the union and know for a fact in every state it is a huge process, but some are more than others) Letting go of teachers before they earn tenure or rifting is perfectly fine. You need no reason to let a teacher go who is not tenured.

To answer your question about what our district is doing? The same as all districts are doing. Rifting the bad ones without tenure. The ones with tenure(while I do not know of any that don't belong teaching I know there are some who just do what is expected of them and no more no matter how good a district is there will always be a few) they will continue to teach because unless they do something majorly wrong they cannot be let go...like all other tenured teachers in this country. My district is a district where we pay big taxes and most are a 1 working parent family. So the parents are heavily involved in the schools and will hold the teachers accountable. Doesn't mean there aren't some who need to go, but when the parents are in the schools all the time it isn't as easy for the teachers to just tow the line.

 

[nugov2]

It sounds like your son's school has handled the transition very badly. Frankly, this year's 3rd graders should be some of the best supported for the transition because K-2nd grade aren't testing years under NCLB. The standards were released at the beginning of your son's Kindergarten year. Schools, school districts, and states that have handled the transition well made changes for this age group starting in first, so that they were prepared. They had the ability to do so because under NCLB and RTTT schools aren't held so tightly to standards for K-2. If it feels like an abrupt transition for a 3rd grader, then that's really problematic.

The other thing I wonder, is whether some of what you're seeing with your son has to do with the ways that specific characteristics of your child, mesh with the demands of 3rd grade.

I work with parents with challenging kids, and I often remind parents that every kid has weaknesses, and when your child who struggles harder than most with something, gets to an age when all kids struggle with something, it's likely going to be a rough phase. If you have a girl who tends to be moody and defiant, 3 is going to be rough, middle school is going to be hell, and you should be prepared for the stress of their senior year in high school. If you have a boy who struggles with impulse control, and sitting still, his twos might be terrible, you should expect some negative feedback from his K and 1st grade teachers, and prepare to need to hold him close and give him a lot of support when his body is flooded with testosterone from his teenage growth spurt.

You mentioned upthread that your child seems to struggle with fluency. You said something along the lines of he can do it, but it takes a little more time. If that's a stable characterstic of his 3rd grade is likely to be a tough year, because the 3rd grade curriculum, before CC, and with CC, places a lot of emphasis on fluency. Kids are expected to learn all their multiplication and division facts (in contrast the addition and subtraction facts are spread out over 3 years in K-2). They're expected to do a lot of mental computation. They're also expected to work with tasks that require them to use the four basic operations in the context of a multistep task (e.g. finding elapsed time, or the area of an irregular shape, or comparing frations). Kids who seemed to be keeping up, but took a little more time, can suddenly feel swamped, because while they can do each step, the steps aren't efficient enough for them to be able to hold on to them while also looking ahead to the next step and remembering the number from the step before.

The good news is that he's growing and developing, and if you and the school support him well he'll catch up. The demands of 4th grade math are very different from the demands of 3rd grade math. The pace slows down again to allow kids to delve deep into new concepts, like decimals and angles, and for your kid this might well be easier. Plus he'll be growing and maturing and when demands are placed on his fluency, he'll be more ready to manage them.

Good luck.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!! Exactly!!! That is why you are seeing so many fail. That is what happens when you wait until the night before to do your big project!!

 

[castleview]

Well, if that high paid teacher is tenured you can't just go after them. That would get a law suit slapped on you. There is a process involved in letting go a tenure teacher and if the are incredible you cannot come close to properly letting them go, so there is no way that is happening.(if you tell me what state you are in I will give you the steps involved in removing a tenured teacher. I did a lot of work with the union and know for a fact in every state it is a huge process, but some are more than others) Letting go of teachers before they earn tenure or rifting is perfectly fine. You need no reason to let a teacher go who is not tenured.

To answer your question about what our district is doing? The same as all districts are doing. Rifting the bad ones without tenure. The ones with tenure(while I do not know of any that don't belong teaching I know there are some who just do what is expected of them and no more no matter how good a district is there will always be a few) they will continue to teach because unless they do something majorly wrong they cannot be let go...like all other tenured teachers in this country.

I am in CT and my father was a high school principal who was able to get rid of tenured teachers. The principal at my kids' elementary school also got rid of two tenured teachers during her first two years on the job. It requires documentation and follow up. No, it isn't easy - but it can be done. If your district fears a lawsuit (and it sounds like they have the money to take it on), then they need to grow a backbone. Funny how my district is good on that, but weak on your district's strengths (curriculum).

Though I did get to wondering if my state allows school systems to write their own curriculums. Honestly, with our current state commissioner (who has no teaching experience) - it wouldn't surprise me if he required districts to purchase it from any of his cronies in the curriculum writing business.

 

[nugov2]

And again, kids who have parents who can't or won't take the time to become part-time teachers in addition to their other obligations should just be out of luck because the schools now have to teach so much "higher order thinking" that they can't spend much time on mastering basic concepts?



I don't think schools need to be everything for a child. But if the purpose of school is to educate children, they need to be doing so in a way that maximizes the odds of children succeeding. This literacy-heavy approach does just the opposite; it teaches to one particular learning style and set of strengths at the expense of those with other strengths and talents. And I don't believe a system that requires our kids attend 7 hours of classes each day, assigns another hour of homework, and then tells parents of kids who aren't getting it to add another couple hours of working on concepts at home can be defined as effective or efficient in any sense. Children can't handle 10 hour workdays, and shouldn't have to give up playing and being kids just to keep up with an elementary level education.

I'm not actually in a position where this will have much effect on my kids. But I know what we went through with my son with what was essentially a precursor to common core, and I see how his courses now are an extension of that (10 steps of 'show your work' on an algebra problem he could solve in his head - I can understand the point of one or two, to show reasoning, but this is absurd). We exhausted our options for trying to improve matters - I had to go outside of the school for testing because they didn't agree that there was an organic issue in the first place, they resisted accepting the results of that outside testing, we had a plan in place for accommodations that teachers followed when they felt like it, he was held back a year but with no additional instruction/support so that didn't help, and he started asking how old you have to be to drop out when he was in the 2nd grade.

More and more kids are having that same experience with each of these new changes, and not all of them have the advantage of an educated, middle class, SAHM who can afford private testing and tutoring and put in countless hours of time trying to improve matters both at home and at school. I'm hearing the same story over and over from friends with younger kids, and they're overwhelmed. I'm also hearing 'If this was what math was like when I was a kid, I never would have gone into computer science/engineering' from friends who were math geeks back when we were in school - they loved it because they didn't have to put everything in sentence form, because they were graded on right/wrong answers rather than subjective measures like the effectiveness of an explanation or the process used to arrive at the solution, and because it was an escape from the need to write all the time. Now every subject is English class and a whole learning/thinking style is being left out of mainstream education.

Well a child should be the first priority above all those other obligations. If you work so much you are never home then you find someone who can come in and work with them. I taught in a school that offered a free homework lab to the at risk students. Maybe talk to the school about implementing that. I get that some kids have no support at home and that is sad, but schools are already feeding children now they have to be the only support for educating. What's next a second shift of teachers coming in from 3-7 to be the parent and do homework and offer extra support? It isn't right. I don't know what the answer is for those kids, but it cannot be to hold the rest of education responsible and lower the standards because of it. Also if those children were introduced at a young age(PreK) to higher standards they would do better in the long run. So starting early will help.

Again, I have yet to see any of this 10 step monotonous type of lesson being taught in my dd's class so again I blame it on your districts implementation. There are lots of fun ways to teach these lessons. Search the standard and the grade and you will see the options out there.

 

[nugov2]

I am in CT and my father was a high school principal who was able to get rid of tenured teachers. The principal at my kids' elementary school also got rid of two tenured teachers during her first two years on the job. It requires documentation and follow up. No, it isn't easy - but it can be done. If your district fears a lawsuit (and it sounds like they have the money to take it on), then they need to grow a backbone. Funny how my district is good on that, but weak on your district's strengths (curriculum).

Though I did get to wondering if my state allows school systems to write their own curriculums. Honestly, with our current state commissioner (who has no teaching experience) - it wouldn't surprise me if he required districts to purchase it from any of his cronies in the curriculum writing business.

I am not talking about my district. I know of no specific teacher that needs to go and the district didn't take on. I was speaking in general because you asked. I was just saying that I don't know all the teachers so I am sure just based on statistics that there are probably a few. Statistically speaking there must be a few in every district. So I cannot say if we do or don't do it well.

Now, you are changing what you said. You said they fired the highest paid teachers even if they were great. I said that couldn't happen. If he has documentation it is different...but not what you originally said. Your state fires on average 20 tenured teachers a year...do you know how small that percentage is compared to the number of tenured teaching? In your state you are 17 times more likely to be fired from your job then a tenured teacher. Also your state doesn't report how many of the fired tenured teachers actually let their certificate expire and that is the actual reason they were able to let them go.

I don't know when your dad was a principal, so maybe times have changed. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but it just isn't done that often. It is very lengthy and requires excellent documentation. About 1% of tenured teachers are fired...I don't think anyone is so naive to believe that only 1% of American teachers are not doing their job properly.

 

[justhat]

The problem I have with it (aside from it making report cards meaningless in our house) was that my daughter could get a 3 if she got a 100 on a test and get a 3 if she scored an 85. She's now in middle school, back to numeric averages and loving knowing exactly where she stands.

The 1-4 doesn't really equate like that, 85 vs 100. However, in our school, if you missed enough questions to get an 85, you'd likely get a 2.8. For a 3 you need to miss none, or maybe 1-2 questions if there were a lot on the assignment. A plain 2 equates to about a C in a letter scale.

 

[castleview]

I am not talking about my district. I know of no specific teacher that needs to go and the district didn't take on. I was speaking in general because you asked. I was just saying that I don't know all the teachers so I am sure just based on statistics that there are probably a few. Statistically speaking there must be a few in every district. So I cannot say if we do or don't do it well.

Now, you are changing what you said. You said they fired the highest paid teachers even if they were great. I said that couldn't happen. If he has documentation it is different...but not what you originally said. Your state fires on average 20 tenured teachers a year...do you know how small that percentage is compared to the number of tenured teaching? In your state you are 17 times more likely to be fired from your job then a tenured teacher. Also your state doesn't report how many of the fired tenured teachers actually let their certificate expire and that is the actual reason they were able to let them go.

I don't know when your dad was a principal, so maybe times have changed. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but it just isn't done that often. It is very lengthy and requires excellent documentation. About 1% of tenured teachers are fired...I don't think anyone is so naive to believe that only 1% of American teachers are not doing their job properly.

No I'm not because I never said that they fired anyone with 20 years experience. I'm saying that they "would". In middle class towns, you tend to get people on the board whose kids are long out of the school system and they don't care how well things are running. As for how many leave without being fired, well…I don't see how that makes a difference. I would imagine most principals save themselves having to fire someone by getting them to resign - much like getting a kid to withdraw who is about to be expelled.

I really don't see what the problem is with requiring excellent documentation - though the length process can be cut, I agree. I'd think someone who has taught and knows how vindictive parents, kids and administrators can be would understand the need for a teacher's right to due process.

My dad just retired, btw…again. He keeps getting hired as an interim whenever a few school systems lose a principal or asst principal. Apparently, management and leadership are lost arts so they keep calling him back. He's quite frustrated that people out to ruin public ed have made inroads into our legislature and baffled that anyone can blame all of society's problems on teachers. Plus, he's sick of tired of those trying to kill public ed and teacher's rights by believing administrators who don't have the fortitude to do their job correctly.

 

[Jey12]

If I could ask or touch on the topic of the hours of homework being an ok thing. Do many people actually agree with this? At the start of our school year my 2nd grader had up to an hour of homework a night. I couldn't imagine spending 3.5 hours doing school type of work with her a night, fun or not. She needs time to be a kid, learn to read for enjoyment and not because she has to. She needs free time to not have to incorporate math or other basics into her play, and just play how she wants. The old rule of thumb and experience had shown that anything over 10 minutes of homework per grade level a night for a student really did not get them to learn more. So by that my 2nd grader should have no more than 20 minutes of homework a night. Of course some students do their work faster than others so the 20 minutes is an average. She comes home at 330 and if you take out an hour for dinner, if she did 3.5 hours of school type of work a night she would be up until 8pm. Where's her free time? Where's her time to be a child? Where's her time to try and be creative and not worry about math and reading? How many adults would want to work 8 hours a day, and then come home and do work related stuff for another 3.5 hours? Many do, but I wouldn't say they were happy about it.

A quarter into the school year and I had had enough of my 7 year old being in tears 30 minutes into her homework because she was simply just done with it. Sure I could find a fun game that related to the work, but it wouldn't change the fact she still had a paragraph to write about a 3 paragraph story she still had to read. I totally agree education begins at home in the early years. Now she's in public school my role is to supplement and enhance what she's learned during the day. I have no issues doing this. It's my job as a parent and I enjoy helping her learn. I do not enjoy doing it for over an hour a night, when her brain is simply done with thinking. I do not enjoy having to explain the basic concepts she should have been taught at school before they moved onto more complex math problems. Her math problems look like this 13 + 5 + 5 = and there's nothing wrong with a 2nd grader having these sorts of problems. The problem is the week before they started with these problems was her math homework was only the 3 + 5 = and they moved right on without explaining or being able to make sure most of the students understood that 5 + 5 is always and forever going to equal 10. Instead they have been allowed to depend on the number line on their desk, and not memorize the basics. I have seen my child go from being a 1st grader who excelled at math and loved it, to a 2nd grader who has low confidence and feels like a failure. The main reasons are because so many basic concepts are being skipped over. So while her homework may only be what the teacher considers 30-45 minutes, I as a parent have to spend an additional 30 minutes teaching her basic concepts before she can even begin her homework. Yes most of it is me, because I refuse to allow her to use a number line at home. But because she is a visual learner I have found many ways to teach her the basics with other means vs. counting along a number line. She will never learn to memorize basic math answers if she has that number line is my personal thought.

Not to mention my child also has 2 days of gymnastics class a week. So 4 hours total. On those nights after gym and homework she's often not in bed until 10pm or later. That is way too late. There is no reason a 7 year old cannot have one activity in addition to school work, but the amount of homework she is bringing home makes it almost impossible. This further adds to her frustration to the point she also does not enjoy going to gymnastic class. From a parent standpoint with no degree in education I keep asking myself what are we doing to our kids? How is quantity over quality going to educate them better?

With that said I for one am thrilled to see word problems being used in younger grades. As others have posted in the real word most math you do is from a word type of problem. Teaching them how to properly read the word problems at an early age is a wonderful thing. As long as they are also taught the basic mathematical concepts to go along with them. In the middle of her homework last week she had an estimation problem. The end of the week before they had just started learning a new concept, and 2 days later they are working on estimation. Blew her 7 year old mind and she totally shut down.

I did sit down with her teacher and in detail explained the issues she was having, the issues I was having and asked for guidance on how to best handle it. My main concerns is I saw an eager, average, student go from being very detailed in her answers and a desire to learn. To a student who if she didn't know an answer, or the problem looked foreign to her she'd just skip over it and not care. I saw a kid that in one month's time go from thriving in her gymnastic class, to being demoted to a lower level because she could not focus on what was being asked of her. Nothing in her home life had changed, she was still a very social kid, no behavior issues or anything else that may lead one to believe there may be something else going on. As a parent, in my gut, I knew it was the way the new concepts were being presented at school. She's a very active child and due to new demands on teaching her class they only had one 15 minute recess a day, snack time was gone, and free time in class was nonexistent. I found out they were being given 20 minutes to eat lunch and the lunch monitors were telling them to eat more of the "good" stuff and to hurry up and do it. Now is this prison or a 2nd grade classroom? Sure doesn't sound like a 2nd grade classroom to me.

Finally after talking with the 2nd grade teachers and principal as well as bringing up the issue to the PTA board, we came to this plan for my child. We set a timer for 30 minutes a night for homework. Whatever she gets done in that 30 minutes is what she does for homework. She will not be told what to eat and how much of what to eat during lunch anymore. They are looking into adding back the 2nd recess, at least a couple of days a week, but until then the one recess has been extended to 20 minutes. Each class will once again have 15 minutes of free time for the kids to socialize and explore what is in their classroom. And the amazing thing is she is now doing better in school, and doing better in gymnastic class. Her confidence is up and she has gained more focus on things. Basically my 7 year old is a happy, normal 7 year old again.


I also want to point out that last year she was sick for almost a month and missed a lot of reading concepts. We worked hard to make that up, but when she wasn't making the progress I wanted to see I did not hesitate to cut back on gym class. This year I knew it wasn't the activity that was the issue, because if it is I really have no problem cutting back on an activity. This year it's her academics, and they were getting in the way of everything and for no good reason that I could see.

So I'm sorry, and maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I cannot fathom how having a child do 3.5 hours of homework a night benefits anyone? I wouldn't want my high school aged child doing that much homework every night even. It's too much. I didn't even spend 3.5 hours of homework in a week's time when I took organic chem over the summer in college. Why should my 2nd grader need to have more homework now, than I did in college?

 

[jodifla]

And again, kids who have parents who can't or won't take the time to become part-time teachers in addition to their other obligations should just be out of luck because the schools now have to teach so much "higher order thinking" that they can't spend much time on mastering basic concepts?



I don't think schools need to be everything for a child. But if the purpose of school is to educate children, they need to be doing so in a way that maximizes the odds of children succeeding. This literacy-heavy approach does just the opposite; it teaches to one particular learning style and set of strengths at the expense of those with other strengths and talents. And I don't believe a system that requires our kids attend 7 hours of classes each day, assigns another hour of homework, and then tells parents of kids who aren't getting it to add another couple hours of working on concepts at home can be defined as effective or efficient in any sense. Children can't handle 10 hour workdays, and shouldn't have to give up playing and being kids just to keep up with an elementary level education.

I'm not actually in a position where this will have much effect on my kids. But I know what we went through with my son with what was essentially a precursor to common core, and I see how his courses now are an extension of that (10 steps of 'show your work' on an algebra problem he could solve in his head - I can understand the point of one or two, to show reasoning, but this is absurd). We exhausted our options for trying to improve matters - I had to go outside of the school for testing because they didn't agree that there was an organic issue in the first place, they resisted accepting the results of that outside testing, we had a plan in place for accommodations that teachers followed when they felt like it, he was held back a year but with no additional instruction/support so that didn't help, and he started asking how old you have to be to drop out when he was in the 2nd grade.

More and more kids are having that same experience with each of these new changes, and not all of them have the advantage of an educated, middle class, SAHM who can afford private testing and tutoring and put in countless hours of time trying to improve matters both at home and at school. I'm hearing the same story over and over from friends with younger kids, and they're overwhelmed. I'm also hearing 'If this was what math was like when I was a kid, I never would have gone into computer science/engineering' from friends who were math geeks back when we were in school - they loved it because they didn't have to put everything in sentence form, because they were graded on right/wrong answers rather than subjective measures like the effectiveness of an explanation or the process used to arrive at the solution, and because it was an escape from the need to write all the time. Now every subject is English class and a whole learning/thinking style is being left out of mainstream education.

Yes, this. CC teaches for a very specific learning style, and is going to leave a large percentage of kids out. We already see this in the test scores, with special needs kids, ESL students, and students of color or those in poverty doing much more poorly than others.

And for people on this thread who say, "you lazy parents should just work with your kids more" -- they really don't get it. You can sit for hours with a child, but if they are not wired to learn in this highly abstract way, the hours are wasted and only teach kids what we are starting to hear around the country now: "I'm stupid."

Now you can leave out the previously mentioned marginalized kids and get away with it, but once your typical suburban kid is deemed a failure by large percentages, well so long Common Core, on to the next education fad.

The other thing is: Who decided that ONE way of learning/thinking was THE way? Americans have always been great innovators because of our educational system. Which had leeway, until we went overboard for testing our kids to death. Now we are content to churn out autobots of similar thinking, with everyone being good at exactly the same things.

 

[sam_gordon]

Yes, this. CC teaches for a very specific learning style, and is going to leave a large percentage of kids out. We already see this in the test scores, with special needs kids, ESL students, and students of color or those in poverty doing much more poorly than others.

And for people on this thread who say, "you lazy parents should just work with your kids more" -- they really don't get it. You can sit for hours with a child, but if they are not wired to learn in this highly abstract way, the hours are wasted and only teach kids what we are starting to hear around the country now: "I'm stupid."

Now you can leave out the previously mentioned marginalized kids and get away with it, but once your typical suburban kid is deemed a failure by large percentages, well so long Common Core, on to the next education fad.

The other thing is: Who decided that ONE way of learning/thinking was THE way? Americans have always been great innovators because of our educational system. Which had leeway, until we went overboard for testing our kids to death. Now we are content to churn out autobots of similar thinking, with everyone being good at exactly the same things.

Apparently your school district. CC does not say "here's how you have to teach". It simply says "here's the skills kids should learn".

You have heard from numerous people on this thread, from parents to teachers, to folks who have written curriculum, that there are many ways to teach the skills. If your school board/district/state whoever says "teachers must use this "lesson in a box"", that's not a problem with CC, that's a problem with YOUR system.

 

[jodifla]

Apparently your school district. CC does not say "here's how you have to teach". It simply says "here's the skills kids should learn".

You have heard from numerous people on this thread, from parents to teachers, to folks who have written curriculum, that there are many ways to teach the skills. If your school board/district/state whoever says "teachers must use this "lesson in a box"", that's not a problem with CC, that's a problem with YOUR system.

No, the CC is demanding a very specific, abstract results process. They want answers presented in a very particular way. And CC wants to turn every class into an English class.

And THAT is a problem with the Common Core that will likely sink it.

And you have also heard from parents around the country that the CC curriculums, testings AND STANDARDS are not working for their children.

 

[nugov2]

Here's what would happen in my middle class district - budgets need to be cut, so we'll go after the highest paid teachers even if they are incredible teachers. DH's school system even started letting go of teachers right as they were about to get tenure, regardless of ability. There are plenty of people out there (the privateers pushing CC especially) that would love a quick turnover of lower paid teachers. Can unions be lightened up? Sure. But I get why tenure exists and it's unfortunate that people have spun that word into meaning "lifetime job". I would ask what exactly your administrator is doing about some of the lousy teachers in your district.

Again, this is what you said. The highest paid teacher have the most years and schooling. So those teacher would be tenured. I simply said that wasn't happening with tenure in place. I simply was stating how hard it is to even get rid of sub par teachers with tenure let alone ones who by your own words are incredible. I was giving you reasons it is difficult to remove a teacher with tenure, not that documentation was unreasonable and that there would be no documentation that would support the removal of a high paid teachers who again are incredible. That is not the way it works and the money saved would be lost by lawsuits from the teachers union rep. No teacher is fired without a union rep that is tenured and there isn't a union rep in the country that would allow a teacher to be fired with no documentation. That situation is a big wig at the unions wet dream. The media fire storm to follow would be huge. While states are trying to reform tenure, that would be a huge story in favor of keeping it. I am simply disputing your claim that this is happening anywhere.

 

[sam_gordon]

No, the CC is demanding a very specific, abstract results process. They want answers presented in a very particular way. And CC wants to turn every class into an English class.

And THAT is a problem with the Common Core that will likely sink it.

Do we need to revisit the standards again? No where in the math STANDARDS does it talk about these "10 step" answers. Maybe that's the CURRICULUM & tests your school has chosen, but the STANDARDS don't have that.

And you have also heard from parents around the country that the CC curriculums, testings AND STANDARDS are not working for their children.

Yes, and I think it's part "mob mentality" and part "what do you mean my child doesn't pass the test? The test must be wrong!"

 

[nugov2]

No, the CC is demanding a very specific, abstract results process. They want answers presented in a very particular way. And CC wants to turn every class into an English class.

And THAT is a problem with the Common Core that will likely sink it.

And you have also heard from parents around the country that the CC curriculums, testings AND STANDARDS are not working for their children.

Give me a standard and grade that your child is having a problem with and I will find you a reasonable lesson. See you are seeing a small sample of a noisy few....just like other issues that are hot button. Doesn't mean it will change it or that is even how the majority of people feel. Sometimes the loud are still the few. I see tons of people posting stuff even that pops up on my FB page. When I ask what is going on in there school they say nothing, but they don't like to hear that it is happening other places. So I think people read the stories that pull on your heart strings and get fired up about it, but it doesn't mean that it is happening everywhere. In all of my IRL friends, in other states and towns I do not know of one person who is having an issue with CC. I know it is out there happening, but still think in reality it is the minority and also just districts who are doing it wrong. Now that being sad I think it is wrong that it is being implemented wrong and that kids are feeling the way they are. That needs to change, but it has nothing to do with changing the standards.

 

[jodifla]

From Saturday's NY Daily News:

City's new Common Core kindergarten curriculum stumps some adults
The Daily News asked adults to complete a new vocabulary exercise from the Common Core curriculum and some were 'totally stumped.' The city estimated the Common Core textbooks would cost $56 million, but more schools than expected have placed orders.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...stumps-adults-article-1.1490711#ixzz2iMVR9rQz

" The curriculum, which is optional, aims to teach kindergartners higher-order thinking skills, and tasks them with drawing pictures of vocabulary words. The News chose the words distance and responsibility and told those who have long since finished grade school to put their thinking caps on.

"I'm glad I skipped kindergarten!" said Brian Schwartz, who graduated from Oxford University at 18 and is a member of the Omega Society, which professes to accept only the brightest of the bright. Schwartz drew an infinite road for distance, and declined to share his representation of responsibility, calling it a total failure.

Schools chancellor Dennis Walcott, a former kindergarten teacher, declined to take the kindergarten challenge.





For kindergartners, the trouble with the exercise begins with the fact that the workbook forces kids to draw in a 2-inch-by 4-inch box.

"They cant make anything in that small little space. That to me is a setup for failure," said Sandra Fajgier, a kindergarten teacher at Public School 10 in Brooklyn, who said she was totally stumped when first approached about making a drawing. Department of Education spokeswoman Erin Hughes defended the agency, calling the curriculum 100% optional, though 90% of schools have the adopted city-suggested texts.

 

[castleview]

Do we need to revisit the standards again? No where in the math STANDARDS does it talk about these "10 step" answers. Maybe that's the CURRICULUM & tests your school has chosen, but the STANDARDS don't have that.


Yes, and I think it's part "mob mentality" and part "what do you mean my child doesn't pass the test? The test must be wrong!"

Here's an interesting take from Diane Ravitch, who has many times discovered things on standardized tests that are wrong. Anyway…follow the money.

http://dianeravitch.net/2013/10/21/...-the-increasing-desperation-of-the-reformers/

 

[sam_gordon]

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but did you miss..

From Saturday's NY Daily News:

" The curriculum, which is optional, aims to teach kindergartners higher-order thinking skills, and tasks them with drawing pictures of vocabulary words.

Department of Education spokeswoman Erin Hughes defended the agency, calling the curriculum 100% optional, though 90% of schools have the adopted city-suggested texts.

YOU even bolded that the curriculum being used is OPTIONAL. That means schools COULD USE OTHER MEANS. That they elected not to is not the fault of CC.

 

[sam_gordon]

Here's an interesting take from Diane Ravitch, who has many times discovered things on standardized tests that are wrong. Anyway…follow the money.

http://dianeravitch.net/2013/10/21/...-the-increasing-desperation-of-the-reformers/

What does this have to do with my post you quoted?