I witnessed something very disturbing today (long)

[Buckalew11]

Wow I'm wondering when this evolutionary change took place, I guess the same one that says kids can't be expected to be toilet trained by 2 took place. Why is it that 2-3 yr olds where expected and DID have control of them selves to stay still and quiet if needed 20, 50, 100 yrs ago? To follow directions. My DD was taking dance classes at 2 1/2 and she somehow was able to control herself and follow directions for 30 minutes. Same as toilet training 25 yrs ago and before 2 was the upper age to be trained now it's who knows.

Kids haven't changed, just the parents and expectations.

Just a side note because I am staying out of this one. My oldest sister is 50, my next is 47 and I am 42. We were all potty trained before age 2. My mother says that if you had babies in NJ back then when you had to hang real cloth diapers out on the line in January (which would freeze), you'd be potty training those kids ealier than what we trained her grandchildren! She felt sure that all these very absorbent diapers disposable diapers were part of the cause!

 

[jrmasm]

Just a side note because I am staying out of this one. My oldest sister is 50, my next is 47 and I am 42. We were all potty trained before age 2. My mother says that if you had babies in NJ back then when you had to hang real cloth diapers out on the line in January (which would freeze), you'd be potty training those kids ealier than what we trained her grandchildren! She felt sure that all these very absorbent diapers disposable diapers were part of the cause!

When I was a kid in the 70's, most people had dryers and kids weren't potty trained until they were 4. Apparently we weren't very evolved.

But it's ok, I didn't go off to college in diapers.

 

[What the Heck]

I would hardly call three whacks on the butt (I'm assuming butt) child abuse.

He did give her quite a few chances.

I wouldn't call that part child abuse, but the grabbing by the neck and dragging her most certainly is.

Based on what is given here, in my opinion, the dad was way, way out of line. I don't disapprove of spanking at all, but a 2 1/2 year old, why couldn't he pick her up? He was able to when it came "time" for him to take her out of the room.

What is disturbing is his initial reaction, that is where the abuse is, that is where the violence is.

 

[meandtheguys2]

And a lot of research has been done that prove that video games and battery-operated toys are effective in a child's development, not only for eye-hand coordination but also for problem solving and creative decision making, but that's a whole other topic!

Uh-huh...name some that hasn't been paid for by the toy companies...

 

[babieemelly]

Uh-huh...name some that hasn't been paid for by the toy companies...

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jul/brain-on-video-games


I don't want to turn this into a video game thread, but it doesn't matter who pays for the studies. They're conducted by cognitive psychologists and what they prove isn't correlated to who paid for the study.

 

[connorlevismom]

ITA. I still would never accuse other people of raising little soldiers. It´s the wording I thought was harsh.

Yes, the wording was harsh, I apologize. I could have phrased it better.

Kristine

 

[Buckalew11]

When I was a kid in the 70's, most people had dryers and kids weren't potty trained until they were 4. Apparently we weren't very evolved.

But it's ok, I didn't go off to college in diapers.

Maybe we were poor and I didn't know it! Maybe she couldn't afford a dryer? I just remember hearing that story many times when growing up. then again, Maybe my oldest sister set the standard before the dryer and since she was trained at 1 1/2, we'd all look bad if we weren't also.

Of course, we always say "Who was trained Mom?" That makes her mad.

 

[bluefairy13]

That's interesting about potty training in the 70s. I didn't know people did it so late. I remember people being kind of into really earthy natural things, do you think that's why?

In the 80's among my friends it was a rare kid that was in diapers still at 3 (especially girls). I'd say the norm was 2 1/2. But maybe that was just our area.

 

[jrmasm]

That's interesting about potty training in the 70s. I didn't know people did it so late. I remember people being kind of into really earthy natural things, do you think that's why?

In the 80's among my friends it was a rare kid that was in diapers still at 3 (especially girls). I'd say the norm was 2 1/2. But maybe that was just our area.

No it's because no one went to daycare and very few children when to preschool.

We were far from rich but a dryer was a priority to my mother because of diapers.

 

[Hannathy]

That's interesting about potty training in the 70s. I didn't know people did it so late. I remember people being kind of into really earthy natural things, do you think that's why?

In the 80's among my friends it was a rare kid that was in diapers still at 3 (especially girls). I'd say the norm was 2 1/2. But maybe that was just our area.

No they didn't, to have a kid in the 70's and not potty trained until 4 would be very rare. It pretty much was by 2. You never had to put it on forms for 3 year olds that they needed to be potty trained it was just assumed.

 

[TwingleMum]

I am upset at myself & disappointed that I didn't have the guts to say something to this idiot. All I kept thinking was that I should mind my own business because I might make it worse for the little girl. I was not the only one in the waiting room - there was another woman. Now I am second guessing my cowardness. I have been thinking about it all day.

Please don't beat yourself up too bad. You never know just who you are confronting. It may also make matters worse for the child b/c the father would possibly take his humilitation out on the child later. The safest course of action is to quietly and not obviously follow and get a license plate number and call your child abuse hotline. Child Protective and police will follow up and you don't have to get involved personally.

 

[jrmasm]

No they didn't, to have a kid in the 70's and not potty trained until 4 would be very rare. It pretty much was by 2. You never had to put it on forms for 3 year olds that they needed to be potty trained it was just assumed.

Ok, my mother must be a liar.

 

[Hannathy]

Ok, my mother must be a liar.

I'm not saying you weren't potty trained until 4 BUT it was highly unusual. I was babysitting and working in the 70's and I never had a child not potty trained that old.

 

[darlak]

I'm not saying you weren't potty trained until 4 BUT it was highly unusual. I was babysitting and working in the 70's and I never had a child not potty trained that old.

I was 12 when my youngest brother was born in 1970. There was something of a baby boom on our street that same summer and I was the top pick for babysitting since I had experience caring for my baby brother. My mother would have been horrified if any child wasn't potty-trained by about the age of 2&1/2, so I'm sure I would remember if any of the 5, I often babysat weren't.

Maybe it was different in other areas though. I love being Southern and can be quite defensive when I feel the South is under attack, but I will admit that trends seem to reach us a little after the rest of the country.

Forgot to add...with my own 4 kids, born in'79, '84. '87 and '93, they were fully potty-trained anywhere from 20 months (3 DD's)to almost 4 (only DS). He just never seemed to understand before that exactly when he was ready to "go". My mother was horrified that he was that old! The sister closest to his age was the only one who was under 2. She just couldn't wait to have big girl panties. She watched her big brother and she would sneak into the bathroom, take her diaper off, stand on her tiptoes while leaning againt the commode and then...pee all over the floor!

 

[jrmasm]

I'm not saying you weren't potty trained until 4 BUT it was highly unusual. I was babysitting and working in the 70's and I never had a child not potty trained that old.

Did you babysit all of the children of the 70's? Were you a parent in the 70's?

We had a conversation about this exact subject when my oldest was being pottytrained by her daycare. She thought it was completely nuts to do this to kids when most were not physically ready. Her exact words were 'we didn't do that.' And the 'we' referred to her peers.

Were most kids trained by 4? Probably. Were most kids training at 2? Not in our neighborhood. There simply was no need.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Dropping back in for a moment...

All this talk about diapers, daycare, preschool, etc.... Well, IMHO, this all just reinforces my view that I posted earlier, when I posted that I thought that to many people who think that two year olds are / should be capable of sitting still and being quiet etc... this seems to be based on the adults convienence/wishful thinking... "I just wish that he/she would just sit still and be quiet for one minute!!!" etc...

All of the diaper/preschool/etc... reasons listed above have absolutely NOTHING to do with a child's best interest or a child's developmental readiness, and EVERYTHING to do with the adults convienience.

Anyone who has spent time over on DCL Cruise board has undoubtedly seen several threads re: the fact that the kids club onboard requires that the children be three years old and potty trained. Parents are at their wits end trying to 'train' their two year olds. Are these parents who are happy with letting their child remain in diapers and who have been reluctant to 'train'? In most cases I would guess not. They want their child to be free of diapers.

Guess what folks... In some countries children are potty 'trained' (yes, emphasis on that word 'trained') at 12 months!!! Yes, 12 months. They actually take the baby and hold it over the toilet after every meal until they go. They make them sit there until they go... All because of a lack of disposable diapers, and the expense and inconvenience of cloth diapers. (i.e. CONVENIENCE of the adult)

I agree with all the posters who question any of these types of expectations for two year olds. I beleive them to be seriously misguided.

I am speaking from personal knowledge as I post the following: If you know what little toddlers and preschoolers in orphanages in these countries could be 'capable' of when forced, it would make you almost sick to your stomach to think about it.

The capability of a few, or the capabilities when forced (i.e. 'trained'), have NOTHING to do with what is right, what is age appropriate and developmentally realistic, or beneficial to the child.

 

[Freyja]

The capability of a few, or the capabilities when forced (i.e. 'trained'), have NOTHING to do with what is right, what is age appropriate and developmentally realistic, or beneficial to the child.

 

[DMRick]

No they didn't, to have a kid in the 70's and not potty trained until 4 would be very rare. It pretty much was by 2. You never had to put it on forms for 3 year olds that they needed to be potty trained it was just assumed.

I had three babies..one in '68, one in '70 and one in '76. The only one potty trained early was the '76 one. You wanna know why? Cause I couldn't put him in nursery school unless he was trained. That was my incentive...as well as all my friends at the time. Ah..freedom, during the day.

The other two were trained by 3 or so..or I should say I was trained to put them on the potty at all the right times. I don't remember anyone pushing to have their kids trained earlier. We didn't seem to have the pressure that is out there today. I didn't even own a dryer until the last kid came, but I did have a drying rack, and that's where the diapers got put to dry.

The last baby was the first with disposable diapers..they were called Drydees. I remember using coupons handed out by the company as we went into the store, and the store doubling them (was Central Market..now it's called Price Chopper). 10 diapers for $1.00..free after the .50 coupon was doubled. You could use as many as you could talk the gal out of at the door.

As for kids in the "olden" days sitting still...back in the "olden" days we seldom went out to eat, never were brought to a movie that wasn't specifically for noisy kids, and I never had to sit still in church because they always had kids church for us to go to, we never sat in church during the quiet times, they shipped us off.

My mom was born in the early 1900's. She was the youngest of 22 or so, and she did always sit still..cause if she didn't someone would have smacked her.

 

[crazymomof4]

I don't have the time to read all of the posts in this loooooooong thread, but I wanted to add my 2 cents in reply to the OP.
First of all, 2.5 yrs old is still a baby! You don't drag a baby by the neck...........no excuses, no rationalization! THAT's not discipline! The child will not grow up respecting him.........she will hate him and, ASAP, will get as far away from him as possible!

Here is my take on it: The mother didn't want the child to play in her purse and she stuck to that. That was good- some parents would make the mistake of caving in and allowing her to play in the purse just so she would stop whimpering. Her next move should have been one of 2 choices: #1-Tell the child that the crying will not get her the purse to play with and that her whimpering is disturbing others in the room. Then take her in the hall or to a restroom and explain to the child that we will wait here until she is able to stop.-- this usually worked w/ my kids. #2 choice: distract the child with a book or a toy - the purse is not an option, so provide an alternative. A 2.5 yr old pulled on to mommy's lap for a story is not going to continue to whimper for very long.
Why do some people make parenting so difficult? Some over-intellectualize everything and try to always be "nice parent"- allowing the kid to call the shots. Others think that bullying the kid is always the answer and jump right to spanking w/o trying other things first.
I have 4 kids (18yo - 7yo) and I always get compliments on their behavior...........and you know what? It was not that difficult!
To the OP- with regards to speaking out when something like this happens- I don't think it will really change the person- will only get you more upset. My MIL (mother to 7) tried to speak in a kind way to a mother beating her child in a public restroom. Poor MIL got a very hostile reaction that really upset her.
Wanted to add- There is a huge difference between disciplining a kid and being MEAN- I discipline my kids, my dad was mean- so I know the difference.

 

[DaParkers]

Quoting the bible doesn't work when looking at very specific wording... the document has been translated multiple times so the wording depends on which translation you happen to be reading at the time. The original intent could have easily meant "teach"... but we will never know what they truely meant.

A love in your heart is all well and good...but it is how you put it in practice that matters. When you talk about "retraining" children... it sounds like they are dogs or circus animals.

I base my expectations of the behavior of my two children upon their development. The expectations of a 1yo are very different than a 3yo or a 6yo. I would NEVER expect a child under the age of 3yo to sit still for "several hours" (except if sleeping!). They aren't developmentally ready for that at all. I would expect that of my 6yo, but I would most definitely bring something quiet for them to do if what they were sitting through wasn't for them (ie, waiting at a drs office, etc.). "I" wouldn't sit in a dr's office for several hours w/o doing something to pass the time and I wouldn't expect that of my children.

And although I'm not a current student of child development... I do have a degree in elementary education which not only includes CD classes, but also HOW a child learns and HOW to TEACH them on their level.

Why didn't you address my point? Most professions have some sort of training. Are they trying to treat everyone like dogs?