I think Disney should start enforcing end times on fastpasses

I 'imply and presume' because this is a discussion - I would not dream of stating my opinion as a 'matter of fact'.

I think Disney realized early on in the fastpass era that imposing the end of that fastpass window would cause a lot of confrontation and problems which they 'presumably' did not want to deal with. Perhaps they thought that people would realise the rational behind the fastpass window. This does not mean that their original intention was that people would stick to that window for everyone's benefit.
 
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Hoping this works. In more ways than one.

Terribly sorry - I don't look at the boards every day and thought I might share my thoughts and experience on this topic.
 
Terribly sorry - I don't look at the boards every day and thought I might share my thoughts and experience on this topic.

No worries. I'm not OP and I weighed in early a couple of times myself but I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here. This was not directed specifically at anyone. Have a great weekend!!!
 
I doubt 10 minutes worth of "late" FP arrivals ever show up at once anyway...

and all that is assuming they stop the standby line and let every single FP person in first, which they don't do.

Just to be clear, if "you" are farther back in the Standby line...
if a sudden gaggle of FP'ers arrives (we'll say that you are mid-way through the Standby line,) whether they let all of those arriving FP'ers enter the boarding area at once, or slowly mix them in with some of the Standby'ers, the added wait-time (additional wait by adding the FP'ers,) for you, would be the same.

But, again, all of this has to do with how many guests got to the attraction earlier than you... either to get a FP, or to get into the standby line.

General advice: If you want to ride an attraction earlier, get there earlier.
 

I just got back from my first visit, and I had heard alot about how to
maximize fast passes. It worked GREAT for my family and I. We got in
26 rides our first day (yup, I wrote our activities down on last page
of my daughters autograph book). True, we used EMH in the morning, and
that really boosted our ridecount (blessedly).

What confuses me slightly, are two things...
1) why doesnt EVERYONE use fastpasses all the time? Are there some
categories of tickets for which the machine WONT work?

2) I wish it was made plain earlier, that you're eligible for additional
fastpasses earlier that the ones you're currently holding. I didnt get
this at first. I thought you had to burn your present fastpasses before
you could possibly get others. (++)

-djb

(++) funny story (as a newbie)...
On day1, we got fastpasses for WinnieThePooh, and BONUS fastpasses also
came out of that machine for Mickeys 3D symphony ride. So we did other
rides, then WinnieThePooh, and THEN I thought I had to burn the Mickey
Symphony fastpasses (so I could get others later). When we went to the
symphony, there was no line, and so the attendant refused to accept
our fastpasses for it (thinking we should just save them, perhaps). Not
knowing any better, I *INSISTED* she accept them, because I wanted to
bolt over and get more PeterPan FPs afterwards. She was a little confused
by my *enthusiasm* that she MUST take them! (LOL).

Especially when park hopping, or coming in to a park late, FP's for many of the major attractions like Soarin or TSM, etc. will sell out, or you get there at noon and the return time is 8:00 PM. Many times you don't have a choice but to stand in stand-by lines if your dinner reservations are for a particular time and you dont have time to come back. However I learn something that I never new was going on on this board that people were using time expired FP's. Being a person who typically follows the rules, I never even considered doing such a thing.
 
I'm a little late to the party, but no, I am personally glad it wasn't enforced during my last visit
 
Coming late to the party on this one (although some folks don't seem to be having a good time)

Just a couple of observations - the fact that there is a one hour window on the fastpass ticket would seem to imply that the original idea was that people would return within that window - otherwise why not just have a 'return after this time' on it. Presumably the idea was that giving out a certain number of fastpasses for that hour would not impinge too badly on the standby line at that time. It probably soon became obvious that turning people away who returned after the window would become problematical.

We have just returned after a 2 week trip and did notice that the posted wait times for the standby line were quite often out of whack with previous trips - eg we got into line for TSM with a posted wait of 50 mins and actually only waited 20 - great for us - but how many people would have been put off by the posted wait time. Thinking about it now this probably happened because it was early in the day, posted wait times were allowing for fast pass people to return and they didn't - keeping their tickets for later in the day. Contrast this to another experience at Peter Pan late in the evening (when we usually try to ride fantasy land rides ) where the posted wait time was 20 minutes and we actually waited 50 because there were streams of people joining the fastpass lines (presumably more than had fastpasses for that hour) and the CMs really have to keep that line moving or people in that line would probably complain. People have said that those people could have riden before us anyway but the point is we wouldn't have got in line for that particular ride late at night with a posted wait time of 50 minutes which the late fast pass riders caused - if those people had ridden earlier in the day would they have caused such a delay later on - I don't think so.

I think the critical phrases on the Disney website are these

•If the return time is one that works for you, just insert your admission ticket into the Disney's FASTPASS Service machine - this implies that if this time isn't suitable don't get one.

•Go back to the FASTPASS ticketholder entrance when your return time rolls around - presumably not hours later.

I would imagine at really busy times if everyone chose to use their fastpasses later in the day it could have a real impact on standby lines. Perhaps if they allowed a 'grace period' of perhaps an hour to use them that would be a solution. I'm not one for 'following the rules or else' but I do think in this case it could be to everyone's advantage to stick more or less to the plan that Disney envisaged when they thought out this plan.

I think you will find that window was part of the system design and they left it there to "encourage" people to come back during that window.

The wait times have no built in "fastpass" buffer. The wait times are generated using the lanyards and a timer to figure out the "actual" wait time that guests are experiencing. What this means is that if a timer goes through and had has a 50 minute wait, but suddenly people are not getting in line, the time between timers being sent might be off. This is especially true when a line suddenly surges. A 20 minute posted time might not actually get updated for quite a while if all the timers are still waiting and not being scanned at the ride entrance, due to the line.

Regardless of what is posted on the Disney website, the system is not being used that way. To me it is the equivelant of "if the wait time says 50 minutes, you should have to wait 50 minutes before you ride". If Disney wants to allow FP use after the window, so be it...no one is breaking the "rules", but we are taking advanatage of a flexibility in the system that Disney had made.
 
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I think you will find that window was part of the system design and they left it there to "encourage" people to come back during that window.

Precisely. The system works best if *most* FP holders return in a timely manner to keep the flow fairly uniform, but the system doesn't fall apart if some moderate fraction return later.

And as has been said ad nauseum, apart from an occasional pathological moment, the current system *is* working. Hence no need to change it.
 
I think you will find that window was part of the system design and they left it there to "encourage" people to come back during that window.


Why put the hour window on there in the first place if it wasn't meant to be used that way - it makes sense that the fastpass system will work better if a certain number of fastpass people move through the queue in one hour rather than much less in a one hour and double the number in the next.

The wait times have no built in "fastpass" buffer. The wait times are generated using the lanyards and a timer to figure out the "actual" wait time that guests are experiencing. What this means is that if a timer goes through and had has a 50 minute wait, but suddenly people are not getting in line, the time between timers being sent might be off. This is especially true when a line suddenly surges. A 20 minute posted time might not actually get updated for quite a while if all the timers are still waiting and not being scanned at the ride entrance, due to the line.


I would have thought that the wait times would take account of the expected number of fastpass people expected in that time frame which is why the line would move quicker if less than expected FP people turn up.

Regardless of what is posted on the Disney website, the system is not being used that way. To me it is the equivelant of "if the wait time says 50 minutes, you should have to wait 50 minutes before you ride". If Disney wants to allow FP use after the window, so be it...no one is breaking the "rules", but we are taking advanatage of a flexibility in the system that Disney had made.

No the system is not being used that way and it seems increasingly so. That does not mean that that is the way it is intended to work (I don't think the phrases I picked out from the site are ambiguous in any way) and the way it would probably work best for everyone if people stuck to it.
 

The key is that it works when *most* return in a timely fashion, but doesn't require that *all* do so. Some degree of leakage does not cause a breakdown. The behavior of the pass holders themselves serves as a filter. Most *voluntarily* return promptly.

This way the system works for the greatest number of people - both those who return quickly, AND those who return later.
 
The key is that it works when *most* return in a timely fashion, but doesn't require that *all* do so. Some degree of leakage does not cause a breakdown. The behavior of the pass holders themselves serves as a filter. Most *voluntarily* return promptly.

This way the system works for the greatest number of people - both those who return quickly, AND those who return later.

I don't know if "most" is the right word here. I don't what the right percentage of "leakage" is. The number of fastpasses is limited to the number of bodies the line could absorb throughout the day. Even if they all come later than their return times, the standby line would have still moved more quickly earlier as a result of the FP holders not returning. As a result, the line would still be able to absorb even a high percentage of late returnees, because there is a limited number of people who can do so as a result of the limited FP distribution.
 
I don't know if "most" is the right word here. I don't what the right percentage of "leakage" is. The number of fastpasses is limited to the number of bodies the line could absorb throughout the day. Even if they all come later than their return times, the standby line would have still moved more quickly earlier as a result of the FP holders not returning. As a result, the line would still be able to absorb even a high percentage of late returnees, because there is a limited number of people who can do so as a result of the limited FP distribution.

The standby line may move more quickly earlier in the day as a result of FP holders not returning at their alloted time but if a large number of late FP holders return during a small window later in the day this will have an effect on the standby line (which we have witnessed). If people get in the standby line just before an influx of late fastpassers their wait time will be affected adversely. If people are going to advocate this practice then I would think this situation might occur more frequently.
 
I don't know if "most" is the right word here. I don't what the right percentage of "leakage" is. The number of fastpasses is limited to the number of bodies the line could absorb throughout the day. Even if they all come later than their return times, the standby line would have still moved more quickly earlier as a result of the FP holders not returning. As a result, the line would still be able to absorb even a high percentage of late returnees, because there is a limited number of people who can do so as a result of the limited FP distribution.

And even when there are enough late returnees to have a noticeable impact on standby wait times, as happens in the hour or so before closing at high-demand headliners like TSM and Soarin', it still shifts the burden to a time of day more able to absorb that influx. Wait times for most attractions peak in the afternoon. The late use of FPs allows the standby lines to move a little more quickly during that peak period, while making it move a little more slowly at a lower-volume time of day. This is especially true in parks where evening entertainment draws a significant percentage of guests away from attractions in the evening.

Since most DISers are Disney-savvy enough to avoid being in the standby queue for a marquee attraction in that 1 to 4pm range when the standby lines are longest, they don't see the benefit of the late use of FPs. They only see the downside of a disproportionately long FP line a half-hour before closing when they head over for one last ride on a favorite while everyone else is staking out a spot for Illuminations or Wishes.
 
The standby line may move more quickly earlier in the day as a result of FP holders not returning at their alloted time but if a large number of late FP holders return during a small window later in the day this will have an effect on the standby line (which we have witnessed). If people get in the standby line just before an influx of late fastpassers their wait time will be affected adversely. If people are going to advocate this practice then I would think this situation might occur more frequently.

You're not getting it here. If these people had arrived earlier, the standby line would have slowed earlier in the day to let that person in. That effect trickles down to late in the day. So it doesn't matter if you arrive at 2 or at 7 -- the net effect on someone in the standby line at 7:01 is exactly the same.

Just because you don't see the 2 pm arrival when you are there at 7:01 doesn't mean he didn't impact your wait time. He did, exactly the same as if he arrived a minute before you.

Same goes for a "crowd" of people arriving. If they arrived during their 2-3 pm window, or if they arrived at exactly 7:00, it still has the same effect on anyone in the standby line at 7:01.

Not almost the same effect. Not a similar effect. But the exact same effect.
 
Just because you don't see the 2 pm arrival when you are there at 7:01 doesn't mean he didn't impact your wait time. He did, exactly the same as if he arrived a minute before you.

Same goes for a "crowd" of people arriving. If they arrived during their 2-3 pm window, or if they arrived at exactly 7:00, it still has the same effect on anyone in the standby line at 7:01.
Someone earlier in the thread came up with a useful illustration by pointing out that arriving "late" is equivalent to arriving "on time" and then at some point stepping aside in line and allowing others to pass. The result is that those who pass benefit by moving *up* in line, but no one is moved *back*.

Not almost the same effect. Not a similar effect. But the exact same effect.
I can see where "higher-order" effects can cause a slight difference - consider that FP holders who delay their arrival will cause the standby line to be a little shorter at the time of the original FP window. This shorter line might result in others joining the standby line who might otherwise have passsed by - the result being a slight increase in the total number of guests who enter the line.
But this figures to be a small, second-order (at most) effect. The gist of your claim still applies.
 
I strongly disagree with the tritrle of this thread. There is a price for getting the FP and that is not being able to get another until that time expires. It is much less stressful when you have a FP and are stuck in another line knowing you won't loose the FP!
 
You're not getting it here. If these people had arrived earlier, the standby line would have slowed earlier in the day to let that person in. That effect trickles down to late in the day. So it doesn't matter if you arrive at 2 or at 7 -- the net effect on someone in the standby line at 7:01 is exactly the same.

Just because you don't see the 2 pm arrival when you are there at 7:01 doesn't mean he didn't impact your wait time. He did, exactly the same as if he arrived a minute before you.

Same goes for a "crowd" of people arriving. If they arrived during their 2-3 pm window, or if they arrived at exactly 7:00, it still has the same effect on anyone in the standby line at 7:01.

Not almost the same effect. Not a similar effect. But the exact same effect.

Well my recent experiences must be a complete aberration then. When we got in line for Peter Pan late in the day with a posted 20 minute wait ( and I knew from past experience that the length of the standby queue would suggest that wait time) the line suddenly slowed down considerably because of the large number of FP holders going through (much more than would normally have gone through) and we ended up waiting 50 minutes - that is a big difference. The point is it might not have an overall effect over the course of a day but it can have an effect in the course of an hour and if those people had all gone through beforehand and the standby line had a posted time of 50 minutes we would not have got in line. The length of the standby line at that time together with that hour's expected FP riders suggested a wait time of 20 minutes - the extra delayed FP riders caused that wait to be extended to 50 minutes. We saw quite a few examples of the wait times being incorrect this trip - more so than in previous trips and I wonder if increasing use of late fast passes is the cause. Using the FP late really just converts that line into another standby line. I'm not saying don't do it - doesn't bother me at all what other people do - just saying we saw the effects of it.
 
Well my recent experiences must be a complete aberration then. When we got in line for Peter Pan late in the day with a posted 20 minute wait ( and I knew from past experience that the length of the standby queue would suggest that wait time) the line suddenly slowed down considerably because of the large number of FP holders going through (much more than would normally have gone through) and we ended up waiting 50 minutes - that is a big difference. The point is it might not have an overall effect over the course of a day but it can have an effect in the course of an hour and if those people had all gone through beforehand and the standby line had a posted time of 50 minutes we would not have got in line. The length of the standby line at that time together with that hour's expected FP riders suggested a wait time of 20 minutes - the extra delayed FP riders caused that wait to be extended to 50 minutes. We saw quite a few examples of the wait times being incorrect this trip - more so than in previous trips and I wonder if increasing use of late fast passes is the cause. Using the FP late really just converts that line into another standby line. I'm not saying don't do it - doesn't bother me at all what other people do - just saying we saw the effects of it.

I'm not sure how you know whether or not the FP ticket holders were late or not, or if they were the real reason for any delays in the ride.

However, since Peter Pan loads 100 people every 5.5 minutes, there would have to be nearly 600 late FP holders showing up at the same time you got into your line for them to be the reason for a 30-minute "delay" and that's assuming they let every single fastpass ticket holder right onto the ride. They don't do that -- they take turns moving standby riders and FP riders onto the attraction -- so it would actually require far more than 600 late FP arrivals to cause your delay.

I can believe you waited 50 minutes for Peter Pan -- that's not that unusual -- but I have a hard time believing that 600 or more people walked in through the FP entrance at once.

More likely, the line was moving slowly -- as Pan often does, and they even stop the attraction completely to let disabled people on and off -- and you grew frustrated watching all the FP ticket holders ride ahead of you, and chose to blame them.
 
Well my recent experiences must be a complete aberration then. When we got in line for Peter Pan late in the day with a posted 20 minute wait ( and I knew from past experience that the length of the standby queue would suggest that wait time) the line suddenly slowed down considerably because of the large number of FP holders going through (much more than would normally have gone through) and we ended up waiting 50 minutes - that is a big difference. The point is it might not have an overall effect over the course of a day but it can have an effect in the course of an hour and if those people had all gone through beforehand and the standby line had a posted time of 50 minutes we would not have got in line. The length of the standby line at that time together with that hour's expected FP riders suggested a wait time of 20 minutes - the extra delayed FP riders caused that wait to be extended to 50 minutes. We saw quite a few examples of the wait times being incorrect this trip - more so than in previous trips and I wonder if increasing use of late fast passes is the cause. Using the FP late really just converts that line into another standby line. I'm not saying don't do it - doesn't bother me at all what other people do - just saying we saw the effects of it.

As PP mentioned, just because there was a large influx does not mean they were late returners. The number of fastpasses for any given moment is actually quite large. The fastpasses are not issued in one hour increments, but 5 minute increments. If for some reason a show let out or it was before/after a parade/fireworks, you can always expect a higher influx of fastpasses at that time.

Posted wait times are the actual wait time of someone that was standing in the queue. I have seen where the standby queue actually fluctuates wildly in a 10 minute span...when suddenly a crowd hits it...there is no way they can predict or anticipate this.

Why put the hour window on there in the first place if it wasn't meant to be used that way - it makes sense that the fastpass system will work better if a certain number of fastpass people move through the queue in one hour rather than much less in a one hour and double the number in the next.


I would have thought that the wait times would take account of the expected number of fastpass people expected in that time frame which is why the line would move quicker if less than expected FP people turn up.

No the system is not being used that way and it seems increasingly so. That does not mean that that is the way it is intended to work (I don't think the phrases I picked out from the site are ambiguous in any way) and the way it would probably work best for everyone if people stuck to it.

As others have said over and over...the only way that it would benefit stand by riders by not accepting late fastpasses, is that there would be less fastpasses due to people being turned away. But, in actuality that wouldn't help either, because many of those people with expired passes would likely resort to using the stand by line and that line would increase.

The easiest example to use showing how a late fastpass person does not affect the standby is to use it on a small scale. If a person gets into standby at 1pm and has a 30 minute standby wait. Someone with a fastpass returns at 1:15 within their window and goes through the FP line, taking one seat out of commission for the standby. If the anther FP person arrives at 1:20, five minutes outside of their window and is granted access, they take one seat out of the standby line. The fact that they were five minutes late doesn't matter, because if they were five minutes earlier you still would have lost one seat out of the standby queue. The only advantage is that the FP person would be denied seating and free up one FP seat for a standby person.

The downside of this is that Disney get the appearance of being inflexible over five minutes. The guest that has to use the bathroom or has had this fastpass since 10 am and waited three hours and been waiting, was suddenly caught off guard by another attraction with slow moving line, getting lost, delays in getting lunch, or any other thing that was beyond their control. I think you would have far more complaints from people about the inflexible system, than the current system....and it would not work "better".
 













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