How do you feel about school vouchers?

[Cool-Beans]

The State already gives funds to Catholic schools. The screens in the Catholic school I attended were courtesy of the State of Ohio. Those screens were at the front of the room. We watched films and slideshows and such on them.

But whenever we watched what we referrred to as "Jesus films", the whole class had to turn their desks the other way. They couldn't show Jesus films on the screens, they had to show them on the wall. So, we all turned and faced the wall on the other side of the room.

I'm not kidding. We kids always thought it was very silly, but the nuns were not playing. Jesus films were shown on the wall. They made a deal and they stuck to it.

So, it seems you can mix funds and still not throw religion into the mix.

In fact, the vouchers don't even need to be used in religious schools. They can be used in private, non-religious schools. Heck, they COULD be used in the public schools, if that's where the parents choose to place the kids.

 

[castleview]

The State already gives funds to Catholic schools. The screens in the Catholic school I attended were courtesy of the State of Ohio. Those screens were at the front of the room. We watched films and slideshows and such on them.

But whenever we watched what we referrred to as "Jesus films", the whole class had to turn their desks the other way. They couldn't show Jesus films on the screens, they had to show them on the wall. So, we all turned and faced the wall on the other side of the room.

I'm not kidding. We kids always thought it was very silly, but the nuns were not playing. Jesus films were shown on the wall. They made a deal and they stuck to it.

So, it seems you can mix funds and still not throw religion into the mix.

In fact, the vouchers don't even need to be used in religious schools. They can be used in private, non-religious schools. Heck, they COULD be used in the public schools, if that's where the parents choose to place the kids.

In CT for a while, trailers had to be set up for the Catholic school remedial reading and speech kids to work with the public school funded teachers. We let common sense prevail fortunately. Plus, parochial school busses come out of the public school budget.

My anti-voucher stance has nothing to do with religion.

 

[chobie]

Those powers not granted to the Federal government are reserved for the states, Education was something that the founders believed strongly in, as a states issue. If the Feds would quit dictatating to the states, perhaps the states could start spending the money more wisely, the US ranked a whole lot higher on the list of world education, BEFORE the feds got involved.

Yes, and the Federal goverment is granted the power to tax and spend for the general welfare. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its unconstitutional.

 

[DVC Sadie]

Using vouchers to opt out of a failing school is one thing, but for a religious school? How is that okay people? Religion is a belief, a personal preference, nothing to do with education. If you want your children to get a religious education, send them to church. Period.

Kathee

Having gone to Catholic schools in New Orleans when I was growing up I will attest to the fact that we had Jewish, Presbyterian, Baptist and other religious affliations who all attended the same schools.

When I was growing up the best schools in the NOs area were Catholic schools and had a very high rate of both graduation and college bound students.

 

[Master Mason]

Yes, and the Federal goverment is granted the power to tax and spend for the general welfare. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its unconstitutional.

I never said it was unconstitutional, I said that it shouldn't be happening, because it is supposed to be left to the states.

 

[Cool-Beans]

In CT for a while, trailers had to be set up for the Catholic school remedial reading and speech kids to work with the public school funded teachers. We let common sense prevail fortunately. Plus, parochial school busses come out of the public school budget.

My anti-voucher stance has nothing to do with religion.

LOL, we had those, two. They couldn't do certain things in the building, so the kids who couldn't read and whatnot were sent to the "bullets." The kids called them "bullets" because they were shiny silver trailers that we thought looked like bullets (even though they didn't, really.)

Of course, if the nuns overheard us calling them "bullets" we were in a world of trouble. So we were very careful about that. Usually. We tried to be careful.

I'm not pro-voucher because I want kids in Catholic schools. A friend IRL who also DISes sometimes will tell you flat out that when she was picking a private school for her kids, I suggested the Lutheran school in her area and honestly tried to talk her out of the Catholic school (which she picked, anyway.)

I'd be fine with the kids going to any school where they would LEARN. That simply isn't possible in the Cleveland Public Schools. They're that bad. That is why the parents who can't afford private schools want the vouchers - they want their kids to at least have a chance.

And I'm all for that. I lived in the city once upon a time and if I were still stuck there, I'd sure as hell want my kids in a better schoool than that. I don't just want better schools for my kids, I want them for all kids. The kids deserve better than they're getting. If there is a way out, any shot at all, they should get it.

It would also save the taxpayers a ton of dough, as the private schools manage to teach the kids using FAR less money that the public schools. Bonus there.

And that is my $.02 on that.

 

[barkley]

Religious schools already get federal/state money for some of their programs. Your tax dollars already DO go to religious schools for non-religious programs, especially special education programs.

not all religious school accept these funds. my kids attend an sda school (they operate the second largest christian school system in the world-only one bigger is catholic) and they have a policy not to accept or make application for any government monies. a good number of our students (including my son) are special needs kids who because the school can choose to operate in a manner outside the traditional public school format (traditional as in the way the publics have operated in the u.s. since the 1920's) often succeed at a greater rate than they previously did in public school settings where they received madated special services.

allot of private schools are not against vouchers because of any self perceived eliteism or a desire to keep 'undesireable' students out, it's a desire to be able to maintain and continue to teach in a manner that has proven successfull for generations of students. it's also a financial consideration-anything that involves accepting government funds is going to entail having staff that will have to compile data, prepare reports, submit paperwork...at some small private schools administrative staff is kept to a minimum to maximize the amount of tuition that is allocated to non administrative purposes. despite the fact that some parents of private school students pay exhorbidant tuition-that's not the case at all private schools, and at least in the case of the one my children attend-the amounts i am seeing tossed around for these vouchers in some cases exceeds my entire tuition for the year (and that includes everything-we do no fund raising activities).

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

I've only looked at the voucher system from the point of view of a public school teacher and from kids who may be left behind by the voucher system.

I never really thought much about parents already sending their student to private religious schools...if government $$ starts to come into these schools how much will they have to change their policies. My guess is many just simply won't accept these voucher students.

I totally agree with pp that tax money should not be used for private education...however, government student loans can be used at private colleges. The president has been set and the Supreme Court has ruled. The political science teacher in our department teaches the kids the following phrase on the 1st day of school...The Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is!

 

[castleview]

however, government student loans can be used at private colleges.

I honestly believe the federal student loan is what drove up the cost of college. Colleges knew 18 year old kids wouldn't think about long term debt and now we have student loans the size of a mortgage.

I'm pretty sure if we had vouchers, schools would eventually start jacking up their tuition.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

I honestly believe the federal student loan is what drove up the cost of college. Colleges knew 18 year old kids wouldn't think about long term debt and now we have student loans the size of a mortgage.

I'm pretty sure if we had vouchers, schools would eventually start jacking up their tuition.

I'm pretty sure you are right...on both accounts. Though I looked up a Christian school in my hometown $8k a year. I could hardly believe my eyes. I've never heard of voucher program that would cover that!!

 

[barkley]

I honestly believe the federal student loan is what drove up the cost of college. Colleges knew 18 year old kids wouldn't think about long term debt and now we have student loans the size of a mortgage.

I'm pretty sure if we had vouchers, schools would eventually start jacking up their tuition.

that absolutly could happen.

when i worked for social services and welfare to work was initiated such that the feds set up a maximum rate we could pay per child in lic. daycare settings the daycares automaticaly increased tuition across the board to all participants (gov. or self pay) to coincide with the max. saw the same thing happen when california initiated it's homeless assistance program in the 80's-had a set maximum rate per night we could pay to motels/hotels for temporary lodging, and once word got out on the street what that rate was all the places increased up to it.

 

[DVC Sadie]

This is a big news story here right now. Students in Orleans Parish who attend failing schools may have the opportunity to attend private/Catholic schools on a voucher. This is causing a huge debate here.

I teach at a Catholic school in Jefferson Parish (about 15 minutes from N.O.) and my school is one of the schools that will be accepting vouchers. I am not quite sure how I feel about the issue. First of all, I totally agree that all children should have access to a quality education. On the other hand, we have so many parents at our school who make serious sacrifices to send their kids to our school with no help whatsoever.

Example- a friend of mine just lost her sister in a tragic accident. She now has custody of her sister's 2 kids along with her own 2. She is struggling to send all 4 to our school, but here's the kicker- she is not eligible for the "family discount" (at my school, 4th child attends free). She is also not eligible for the voucher because she does not live in Orleans Parish.

Doesn't seem very fair, does it? I'm looking forward to everyone's opinions.

I have several questions.

Even if the students receive a voucher who is responsible for paying for the schools uniforms, books and other fees?

How will these students get to their new schools?

I know in my neighborhood in Orleans Parish we had one public elementary school (Hynes) and one Catholic elementary school (St. Dominic), and one public high school (JF Kennedy), and Mount Carmel was the Catholic high school. Oh yea, we also had Prytania private school as another option.

I don't know if things have changed since I was in school and maybe they have more school options within the same parish now, but it seems to me if vouchers are allowed how will the Catholic schools handle the huge influx of new students?

 

[mrsltg]

Thanks for the links...interesting reading. However, you misunderstood my point. I meant to contradict the idea that the NEA is the top political contributor. I never meant to indicate that the NEA wasn't powerful. There power has declined in recent years, if you look at the data from your second article...these are overall contributors (dating back several years).

Feel free to google or wiki Patton Boggs...lots of information out there--also discussed in The K Street Gang.

Let me straighten this out for you as someone who worked in the field of lobbying until very recently. Patton Boggs is a firm. They don't work for a specific industry, rather, they are hired by companies on a contract basis. So, yes, they are big. No, they are not lobbying one issue which is the difference between a contract group and the NEA. The NEA takes dues from teachers and lobbies one issue. The group also exists for one sole reason - to lobby on behalf of the teachers' union.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

Let me straighten this out for you as someone who worked in the field of lobbying until very recently. Patton Boggs is a firm. They don't work for a specific industry, rather, they are hired by companies on a contract basis. So, yes, they are big. No, they are not lobbying one issue which is the difference between a contract group and the NEA. The NEA takes dues from teachers and lobbies one issue. The group also exists for one sole reason - to lobby on behalf of the teachers' union.

Ummm...thanks for assuming that I didn't know that...but I did. The issue wasn't firm or non-firm. It was saying that NEA was the most powerful lobbyist. This simply isn't true. I referenced Patton Boggs which the Washington Post calls the most powerful lobbyist firm as an example of more powerful groups that many people don't realize even exist.

Also, NEA does not exist soley to lobby. They provide liability insurance to teachers, some life insurance programs, they have a website that promotes teacher discussion and exchange of lesson plans, ideas and latest research.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

I have several questions.

Even if the students receive a voucher who is responsible for paying for the schools uniforms, books and other fees?

How will these students get to their new schools?

I know in my neighborhood in Orleans Parish we had one public elementary school (Hynes) and one Catholic elementary school (St. Dominic), and one public high school (JF Kennedy), and Mount Carmel was the Catholic high school. Oh yea, we also had Prytania private school as another option.

I don't know if things have changed since I was in school and maybe they have more school options within the same parish now, but it seems to me if vouchers are allowed how will the Catholic schools handle the huge influx of new students?

So, back to the voucher thing...

I think it varies from state to state but most of the proposals I have read...

parents are responsible for any cost not covered by the voucher---books, more tutition, misc. fees.

some states are paying for transportation--I learned from the boards that some states pay for transportation to private schools anyway. I think the idea is that they are paying for transportation anyway...what is a mile here or there.

 

[manning]

I don't think its fair at all. You are right some parents sacrifice everything so that their children can attend these schools, my father was one of them. He also had to pay his taxes to help the public schools. I say if they are giving vouchers for these students, then parents who pay tuition to these schools should receive vouchers for their taxes.
I also think that instead of handing out vouchers so that children can attend better schools, we should be fixing the public school system so that those schools are just as good.

When the public schools have a large monopoly how do you think they can be fixed? When the admins and teachers feel the pressure of competition then they will have a reason to get better.

 

[manning]

I am a public school teacher and I TOTALLY support vouchers in areas where the schools have a long track record of failure and under-achievement. Making taxpayers continue to pay for failing schools should be a crime. For example, the Detroit Public Schools per pupil spending is nearly $12,000, and they have a 21% graduation rate. Appalling. And voucher proponents in Michigan are asking for vouchers of about $3,000, so the state will still get $8,000 in tax funding for students they won't be teaching. How could any sane person oppose this? I'll tell you what, they oppose it because it isn't THEIR kids attending those failing schools. When I used to hear Hillary Clinton talking about this issue and her opposition to it I'd scream at the TV "You sent YOUR kid to a $20,000 a year private school so she wouldn't have to attend the Washington, DC, public schools, you hypocrite!" But guess who is the biggest lobbying organization in America? The National Education Association (teachers unions). They own the politicians, and children suffer. It's a national disgrace.

Let's start cloning this teacher BIG time!! If only there were more!!!!

 

[castleview]

When the public schools have a large monopoly how do you think they can be fixed? When the admins and teachers feel the pressure of competition then they will have a reason to get better.

Unfortunately, you need the kids to be motivated to get better. Yes a teacher can do that, but if a parent undermines or ignores what goes on in school, what do you do?

 

[SeeVee]

Or you could do what we did and move to a better district.

Sure, and you can buy new clothes, cars, and eat out everynight too.

 

[SeeVee]

You think adding a specific religion is okay? One or any others? How about those like myself that do not believe in any religion? Why do I have to be subjected to religion when it's not real.

I am happy I live in a state that refuses to allow public funds toward religious education, it's been tried, but the courts have wisely ruled against it.

Kathee, in Maine

It is perfectly fine with me. I am not afraid of anyone elses religion. Why do you have such hate/fear of religion? And dont say "seperation of church and state" because that is not found anywhere in the Constitution.