How do you feel about school vouchers?

[KatheeME]

Says who? On what scale?

Huh? Ya think it's NOT supposed to be equal? Maybe I shouldn't have the right to vote and my black brother in law shouldn't be "free"? I am totally baffled by your remark, but better than extreme anger I guess ....

 

[Charade]

School vouchers used to attend private/religious schools are unconstitutional. What is the debate? MY tax dollars are to used for someone to attend a school before of a personal, un proven belief? Inequity in public schools is not solved by allowing children to attend private/religious schools. Use that money and more, much more, to create equity in public schools.
Kathee

Sounds like you belong to the NEA. Please explain how some schools (public or private) can produce top notch students for less money per student than the worst performing public school districts who spend the most per student?

And while you're at it, please explain why some other countries spend less, much less per student and those students outperform ours in almost every category?

More money isn't the answer because if it were, we'd have the best students in the world because we spend the most per student in the world.

 

[KatheeME]

Why does "religious" school scare you? They are teaching reading, riding, and 'rythmatic just the same, if not better. So, they have a relgious aspect to them. Big deal.

You think adding a specific religion is okay? One or any others? How about those like myself that do not believe in any religion? Why do I have to be subjected to religion when it's not real.

I am happy I live in a state that refuses to allow public funds toward religious education, it's been tried, but the courts have wisely ruled against it.

Kathee, in Maine

 

[luvmy3]

Why does "religious" school scare you? They are teaching reading, riding, and 'rythmatic just the same, if not better. So, they have a relgious aspect to them. Big deal.

Because every student in that religious highschool is required to take 4 years of theology. They are required to attend mass on the Holy Days and do confession once a year, among other things.
FTR the religious schools are not always better than the public schools. Elementary schools were run the same but its been a very long time since I've attended so things may be different now.

 

[KatheeME]

Sounds like you belong to the NEA. Please explain how some schools (public or private) can produce top notch students for less money per student than the worst performing public school districts who spend the most per student?

And while you're at it, please explain why some other countries spend less, much less per student and those students outperform ours in almost every category?

More money isn't the answer because if it were, we'd have the best students in the world because we spend the most per student in the world.

TENURE, is just one reason here in the United States.

 

[BrerMom]

Sounds like you belong to the NEA. Please explain how some schools (public or private) can produce top notch students for less money per student than the worst performing public school districts who spend the most per student?

And while you're at it, please explain why some other countries spend less, much less per student and those students outperform ours in almost every category?

More money isn't the answer because if it were, we'd have the best students in the world because we spend the most per student in the world.

Post #58:

Got a link?

The problem with looking at lists like this is that it appears to be comparing apples to apples when that is not always the case. I would be interested in knowing how many of the countries above the US educate every single child to the same standards the way we do. Also, we were talking about level of parental commitment - in some countries, I believe Japan was on that list, the parents spend an incredible amount for out-of-school tutoring sessions, sometimes even more than the government spends per child. It was pointed out that in the US, we are much more likely to spend money on sports for our kids than tutoring. We could also discuss the time commitment in out-of-school help vs. sports practices & games. Disclaimer - my kids love sports, too. I'm not suggesting we get rid of sports, just realize that learning should come first.

 

[Sinderelli]

What about the students who are working on grade level? Would you be against them using vouchers to attend your school?

Not all kids attending failing schools are below grade level. The elementary school a few blocks away from me has 60% of their 4th graders with math/reading scores that are below grade level. (levels 1 and 2) 40% of them are at or above grade level. (levels 3 and 4)

You see this in inner city schools throughout the city. Every failing school has students who beat the odds and manage to excel.

These kids are stuck in this schools because
A. The parents can't afford the send them to a private school
B. There aren't enough seats in gifted public schools.

I don't know how familiar you or anyone here is with N.O. public schools, but a few years ago we had the VALEDICTORIAN of a high school fail the graduate exit exam. I agree with you that not all kids who are attending failing schools are below level, but if most of the students are- how much are the achieving students being challenged? Time will tell, I guess.

The schools are failing because the parents aren't as involved as they should be?

Why would sending a child to a better school be a bad thing?

It's definitely not a bad thing; however, I think you are underestimating the important role the parents play in their children's education. If someone is not completing homework with them, studying with them, and reading to/with them, those students are definitely going to be below level in the schools they are transferring into. Many of the Catholic/private schools are teaching at least one grade level above. I teach 1st grade and many of my students come to me already reading. The ones who are not yet reading are worked with intensively to get them up to par- usually in small groups. In a class of 22 students, I have an average of 2-3 students who need extra help. Usually, these are the students who did not attend our Kindergarten program.

 

[Charade]

TENURE, is just one reason here in the United States.

Tenure equates to what?

 

[KatheeME]

Tenure equates to what?

Tenure protects teachers that shouldn't be teaching.

 

[Charade]

I think you are underestimating the important role the parents play in their children's education.[/B] If someone is not completing homework with them, studying with them, and reading to/with them, those students are definitely going to be below level in the schools they are transferring into. Many of the Catholic/private schools are teaching at least one grade level above. I teach 1st grade and many of my students come to me already reading. The ones who are not yet reading are worked with intensively to get them up to par- usually in small groups. In a class of 22 students, I have an average of 2-3 students who need extra help. Usually, these are the students who did not attend our Kindergarten program.

I'm not underestimating parents involvement (early) in their children's education. While not a parent, I've seen it first hand in friends and family. I just get tired of hearing the battle cry from the NEA "more money! more money!" and the output of the US education system just keep getting worse and worse.

 

[Charade]

Tenure protects teachers that shouldn't be teaching.

Oh, I know that and agree it's a problem but IMO, that's not the major cause of the problems we see in our education system.

 

[loco4dis]

I'm a few posts behind but I had to respond. I can't believe public school teachers don't see through the voucher system. In most states the voucher system provides only a small about about $3k to $5k to the student's family and the school has to show NO signs of improvement. In KY $3k won't touch the tutition and fees at a decent private school. Also, while we are on the subject...why do people automatically assume that private schools are good schools???

Also, I like to address the idea that Hillary Clinton sent Chelsea to a private school...yes, Chelsea went to a private school in Washington. AFTER the Clinton's had expressed their wishes that Chelsea attend public school (as she had done in Arkansas while Bill was Governor), it was the secret service that talked them out of a public school because they would not have as many options for security. The Clinton's get in enough trouble on their own...I hate it when they get blamed for crap they didn't actually do

The National Teachers Association is not even in the top 50 biggest lobbyists according to the latest article from the Washington Post...it is a company called Patton Boggs...among others they represent the Mars company. The reason soldiers get a snickers or milky way in their soldier packs.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The NEA wields unparalleled political power. I'll stand corrected on my hyperbole, however. As you'll see from the links below, the NEA is SECOND among the top 10 political donors in the nation for federal candidates and elections, and SEVENTH for overall political donations from 1989 to 2008. Another labor union, AFSCME, which also incidentally opposes school vouchers, is first. Really, to argue that the NEA isn't a powerful political force that buys candidate after candidate is simply absurd. They've bought more political influence than the National Rifle Association and Exxon Mobil COMBINED.

I don't even see your Patton Boggs making the list, but I do find Milky Ways to be a really tasty confection — particularly when frozen — so I'm darned glad to hear our soldiers are getting them.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/06/19/unions_are_6_of_top_10_political_donors/

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

 

[disneyjunkie]

I don't know how familiar you or anyone here is with N.O. public schools, but a few years ago we had the VALEDICTORIAN of a high school fail the graduate exit exam. I agree with you that not all kids who are attending failing schools are below level, but if most of the students are- how much are the achieving students being challenged? Time will tell, I guess.

It's definitely not a bad thing; however, I think you are underestimating the important role the parents play in their children's education. If someone is not completing homework with them, studying with them, and reading to/with them, those students are definitely going to be below level in the schools they are transferring into. Many of the Catholic/private schools are teaching at least one grade level above. I teach 1st grade and many of my students come to me already reading. The ones who are not yet reading are worked with intensively to get them up to par- usually in small groups. In a class of 22 students, I have an average of 2-3 students who need extra help. Usually, these are the students who did not attend our Kindergarten program.

If extra time is spent getting these kids up to par, why couldn't the same be done for the voucher kids that may need it?

 

[Cor44432]

More money may not necessarily be the answer, but less money sure
as heck won't fix the problems either.

 

[Sinderelli]

If extra time is spent getting these kids up to par, why couldn't the same be done for the voucher kids that may need it?

The intensive work is a collaborative effort among the classroom teacher, the parents, and a resource teacher. Anyone left out of that equation will hurt the child's progress. If the parents are involved and vested in their child's education then that child will succeed. Parents who do not work with their children at home will not see success in a challenging school setting. As much as I would like to claim sole responsibility for getting my children ready for 2nd grade I can't.

 

[corndog]

Huh? Ya think it's NOT supposed to be equal?

Of course not. It's not possible.

 

[mumom95]

The schools are failing because the parents aren't as involved as they should be?

Why would sending a child to a better school be a bad thing?

Because a good school isn't a good school just because of the building, teachers and curriculum. A good school also has good parent involvement and kids who care.

If you take a failing school and take all the kids out of the school and put them into an excellent school, and take all the kids from that excellent school and put them into the failing school (basically you switch the kids) I guarantee you within a few years that school that was failing will no longer be failing and the school that was excellent will no longer be excellent.

Yes, schools are failing because the parents aren't as involved as they should be. Maybe once this country owns up to that and starts holding the parents and kids responsible, we'll start to see less and less schools fail.

Unfortunately there are some wonderful kids and parents in failing schools (it just isn't the majority). But they did chose that school system when they moved there.

 

[mumom95]

And while you're at it, please explain why some other countries spend less, much less per student and those students outperform ours in almost every category?

.

I don't know about every country, but I have had a few foreign exchange students in my classroom. From what they tell me, in many of the european countries all students do not go on to what would equate to our high school. At some point, the students that excel academically continue on an academic path, and the students that don't do so well go more into a trade type program. So when the two countries are compared, you are basically comparing their top students to our "whole" group of students (if that makes sense). Like I said, I don't know if this is the norm, I just know I had a student from Germany and one from Spain who said their countries were like this. I remember the first time I gave the German exchange student a multiple choice test, he said he had never seen a test where you were given the answer and just had to pick it out.

I do agree with you that throwing more money at the schools isn't the answer. But I also don't think taking money away from the schools is going to help either. Many of the inner city schools spend more per pupil because their teachers get paid so much better than at other schools. But that is often the only way to get teachers to teach in the inner city schools by paying them a lot more than they could make in the suburban schools.

 

[creativeamanda]

I am against school vouchers for 2 reasons:

1. Separation of church and state. While I am a Christian and would love to send my children to a Christian school, I do not think it's a good idea to put govt money into a Christian education. Before long, groups like ACLU will have probs with the money going here and the govt will step in and ask Christian (and other religious schools) to stop teaching doctrine. If I am sending my kids to a Christian school it is because I also want them to teach doctrine. I don't want the govt involved in that, but eventually they'd have to be.

2. Children with special needs--they won't be allowed in the private schools because of admission standards and would be eventually stuck in the public schools. This would, in effect, be throwing them back into separate schools again and be discriminatory in nature.

I am very pro conservatism until it comes to education.

 

[corndog]

At some point, the students that excel academically continue on an academic path, and the students that don't do so well go more into a trade type program.

You mean it's not equal?!?! GASP!