How do you feel about school vouchers?

[mumom95]

Yes, but how do we fix the parents? you are talking about 100 million different entities when you use the word parents. They are each individuals with their own reasons for participating or not in the schools. What would you suggest we do that would apply to them all? When you use the word schools, you are referring to a much more limited number of school districts that can definately be affected with change. It just makes sense to start at the core and work out. As for why some schools are at the top and others at the bottom, it is the same reason some NFL teams are at the top and others at the bottom. Even if we improve things accross the board, there will always be a best and worst. If we raise the level of schools, our level of standards will rise. Average will still be the line that divides the above average 50% from the below average 50%.

D

I am by no means saying fixing the parent involvement issue will be easy, I realize it may be close to impossible on a large scale. And I do not claim at all to know how to fix the problem. But everyone keeps saying we need to fix the schools, and in my opinion (and I know a lot of people will disagree with me) maybe there isn't that much wrong with the public school system. After all, there are many wonderful public schools across the country, if there is something so wrong with the system, how do these schools prosper? So I don't understand why we spend so much time trying to fix the part (meaning the schools) that maybe doesn't need all that much fixing. It's probably because it is easier to try and fix that, then try and hold parents and students responsible, but no matter what you do to that school system, if you don't fix the bigger problem, it will continue to be a failing system. I know this isn't and equal comparison, but if the engine breaks down in my car, it doesn't matter how many times I change the tires, oil, wipers, and battery, if I don't fix the real problem, the engine, that car isn't going to run.

I'm not trying to say public schools are perfect, they are far from that. But I think it is a system that was set up a long time ago, to be one component of a child's education (his/her family and environment to be the other components). The problem is now that too many people expect the school to be the only component of a child's education, and it wasn't set up to work that way.

As for some schools being at the top and some at the bottom, that isn't what I said. What I said is that some schools perform very well, there is a big difference in that and saying they are at the top. If you take all of the failing schools in this country and rank them, one of them is going to be the best, but it's still a failing school, it is just the best of the failing schools. But there are many public schools in this country that are very good and graduate students that are very well educated. My question is, if that system is so bad and needs fixing so much, how does it work fine in many schools across the country?

 

[KatheeME]

I'm sorry you had a bad experience in the church.

LOL Ohmygawd, what are you sorry about? I grew up and figured it out, don't feel sorry for me, be glad.

 

[castleview]

Too many posters here have a very myopic view of the world. It's easy to blame the parents and the kids. I agree, too many inner-city kids don't have a chance. However, when I was holding my 7 month old I realized that 30 miles away some other mother is holding her 7 month old and these two children are going to have vastly different outcomes.

My husband and I have the option to up and move when we feel like it. We didn't send our dd to public school because we felt it was a waste of time. She instead went to private school which was Plan B - Plan A is home schooling. I am no longer working so she is home schooled. I have a degree and am of above average intelligence as is my husband. Our home is filled with books and our girls are encouraged to "read" whatever book interests them. These children will have a positive outcome and will be well educated and will in turn have children who will be well educated.

On the flip side, some 14 year old has a baby the age of my youngest. This baby has been born into the welfare system and will most likely remain there. Nothing will be expected of this child and so nothing will be delivered. People of means will bicker back and forth about whether or not this child deserves an education and of course, great lip service will be paid by politicians and community activists. It won't matter though, because according to some on this thread this child is doomed no matter what. His or her mother doesn't read a newspaper therefore s/he won't, either. In an earlier post I posed the question of "why bother?" If the outcome is such a foregone conclusion than why bother sending these kids to school?

I do not believe that a child, due to their geographic location and, by default, color of their skin, is less worthy of a good education. The child needs to be inspired, yes. But it does not have to be a parent who is inspirational to that child. One adult can make the difference. Not to mention, it is very presumptuous to assume that because the parent has not been able to break free of the cycle that they do not want their child to be able to do differently. The public schools have failed these kids for so long we have generations of illiterates in one family. This is unacceptable. It's hard for mom to have books in the house when mom, grandma, and great-grandma can't read themselves. The answer to poverty is education. Public education is not delivering a worthwhile product. It's time for the NEA and it's cronies to step aside and let someone else have a try. The bright side is, it can't get any worse!

I agree with a lot of what you said but it sounds like you're advocating someone else/government taking care of someone else's children. Frankly, I think that's how things got so bad in inner city schools. I've taught some inner city children before. While it wasn't a bad experience, I had plenty of children who knew the govt. would take care of them one day because they were owed. They were given no incentive (or threat) to rise up and take care of themselves. No - not every kids was like that. But it was enough to severely disrupt the school.

 

[dsanner106]

My anti-voucher stance has EVERYTHING to do with religion, that is why it's WRONG.

Kathee

So then the non religious private schools, like most in my area are ok as far as vouchers are concerned? You don't really oppose vouchers, just where they can be used?

D

 

[dsanner106]

Trust me, I was raised a Catholic, intent to deceive IS accurate.

My family was catholic, 4 nuns and a mother superior in the family as a matter of fact. I didn't follow the teachings and am a very happy Methodist. You can't possibly say that because you don't believe in what your particular church had to say that all religion is "lies". You also should not deprive children of an education over your disagreement with the catholic church. I am not opposed to my children sitting in a classroom run by an islamic church and even allowed my kids to sit in the devout atheist environment that is our public schools by law. My kids have been told time and again that god does not exist, all things are explainable by science (god or not this is not a true statement) and yet the law says they have to sit there and endure that which goes against their personal belief. Why is it they have no rights of their own?? Are they not being preached to in the same manner as a non believer sitting in a religious based school would be?

D

 

[dsanner106]

Continue to accept tons and tons of money. This is most important.

Don't educate the children.

When people point out that you have more money than any other school but your kids are dumber, shrug your shoulders and say, "It's everyone's fault but ours. The kids are dumb and the parents don't care. But we really, really need more money."

Hire your friends as consultants. Lovers, too. Throw lavish parties in expensive hotels. Have a ball.

Tell everyone that if they give you even more money, you'll do a better job. (Don't worry, you don't really have to do it.)




That's what most crappy school systems do. It works really well. Everyone says, "Oh, the poor little city kids just can't learn." And the schools are totally off the hook. Woo-hoo. Party time.

Actually, the penalty for performing well is no additional funding. If you do not fail, you cannot get more money.... That is why we need incentives for success rather than failure.

D

 

[dsanner106]

As for some schools being at the top and some at the bottom, that isn't what I said. What I said is that some schools perform very well, there is a big difference in that and saying they are at the top. If you take all of the failing schools in this country and rank them, one of them is going to be the best, but it's still a failing school, it is just the best of the failing schools. But there are many public schools in this country that are very good and graduate students that are very well educated. My question is, if that system is so bad and needs fixing so much, how does it work fine in many schools across the country?

I started in Michigan in a school system ranked in the top ten in the country at the time and moved to Georgia. Georgia ranked 50th and my county near the bottom of the state. I recall hearing of one PTA meeting in my 10 years in Michigan, no parents volunteered at the school, homework was stressed no more in the homes of my friends than in Ga. In Ga, PTA meetings were huge, we had at least one parent volunteer assigned to each class with a second to handle functions and field trips. My friends in Ga were under far more pressure at home to perform well in school most wanting their kids to do better than they had. My own personal experience leads me to discount the idea that fixing the schools is pointless, or that the parents and kids deserve most of the blame. They just make the best scapegoats, because we cannot address parents as a block and hope to make a difference. Kids are competitive by nature, you don't just happen to get a school full of kids who don't care right down the road from a school of kids who do. They all want to do well whether it be in sports or school. Nobody brags about how stupid they are, that does not make sense.

D

 

[KatheeME]

So then the non religious private schools, like most in my area are ok as far as vouchers are concerned? You don't really oppose vouchers, just where they can be used?

D

That's where it gets a lot more complicated, to me. Ideally I say no vouchers, but ... no one wants their child in a failing school.

Kathee

 

[KatheeME]

My family was catholic, 4 nuns and a mother superior in the family as a matter of fact. I didn't follow the teachings and am a very happy Methodist. You can't possibly say that because you don't believe in what your particular church had to say that all religion is "lies". You also should not deprive children of an education over your disagreement with the catholic church. I am not opposed to my children sitting in a classroom run by an islamic church and even allowed my kids to sit in the devout atheist environment that is our public schools by law. My kids have been told time and again that god does not exist, all things are explainable by science (god or not this is not a true statement) and yet the law says they have to sit there and endure that which goes against their personal belief. Why is it they have no rights of their own?? Are they not being preached to in the same manner as a non believer sitting in a religious based school would be?

D

Where in the world do your children go to school where they are even talking about religion? A private school? If it's public, I can't believe that goes on, and if it doesn, why no one has gone after the school system to do something abuot it.

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Kathee

 

[dsanner106]

Where in the world do your children go to school where they are even talking about religion? A private school? If it's public, I can't believe that goes on, and if it doesn, why no one has gone after the school system to do something abuot it.

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Kathee

My kids go to school in Ga, and yes, there is no rule against teachers shooting down religious notions, only against promoting them. Religion has been discussed in Biology class, history class, Philosophy class on a daily basis, and Sociology as religion is ok as a topic when you are speaking of other societies, just not our own.

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Although the big topics are difficult to prove and equally so to disprove (Jesus existence, Noah, great flood) I can tell you that as an archaelology student and volunteer the bible has been right on hundreds of points. Dozens of supposedly mystical cities mentioned in the bible have be found, Most of the trade routes in the bible have been found. Many of the bibles stories are simply retellings of morality tales and were never meant to be taken as factual accounts I think. That has lead to much of the debate between churches that insist on following every letter of the bible and those who realize this is difficult to do. But as far as facts go they are there. There is an entire field of study called biblical archaeology present in many of your great public colleges, that attracts just as many atheist as well as religious scientists. To state religion is lies and fiction implies you can prove that all religion is attempting to mislead and does not even possess a factual basis. This is almost impossible to do, but give it a try if you like.

 

[BellvilleDad]

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Kathee

The shame of it is, atheism seems to commonly promote distain for others on this scale. It's ok if you don't believe, but you are actively "dissing" those that do. And for no reason other than you "believe" (ironic, huh?) you are right, so everyone else is not only wrong, but stupid.

I can assure you, we are not stupid, and most of us don't appreciate being talked down to in this manner. Why can't it be a cordial discussion?

Back on topic, you and I agree that vouchers are not good, but for different reasons. It seems the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Hello, friend!

 

[DVC Sadie]

That is fine as my tax dollars aren't paying for it. Why would I want to pay for a Jew to have to listen to Hail Marys? Religion has NO public place.

Yes, I know, my tax dollars are already being wasted on religion in schools. But I am happy I live in a state where it's not allowed and religion has no place in public buildings. But I still want to move! lol

Why is it your decision to tell a parent of a Jewish child that they can't send their child to Catholic school, the parents PAY tuition and the school has no problem with the child attending?

 

[DVC Sadie]

I'm not sure about the bussing issue. I know at our school, the parents have to pay if their children ride the bus to school. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's about $300.00 a year.

Sinderelli,

I spent a couple of hours reading about the vouchers in The Times Picayune.

It appears that 1500 students are eligible and 100% of the tuition will be covered at the cost of 6,300.00 per student which will go straight to the schools who accept the students.

This program is only offered to cover Kindergarten, 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade students who are transferring from a "failing" school.

Transportation is not covered and neither are any additional fees.

For anyone who is interested in reading about the voucher program, I went to www.nola.com and went to the education link.

 

[KatheeME]

My kids go to school in Ga, and yes, there is no rule against teachers shooting down religious notions, only against promoting them. Religion has been discussed in Biology class, history class, Philosophy class on a daily basis, and Sociology as religion is ok as a topic when you are speaking of other societies, just not our own.

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Although the big topics are difficult to prove and equally so to disprove (Jesus existence, Noah, great flood) I can tell you that as an archaelology student and volunteer the bible has been right on hundreds of points. Dozens of supposedly mystical cities mentioned in the bible have be found, Most of the trade routes in the bible have been found. Many of the bibles stories are simply retellings of morality tales and were never meant to be taken as factual accounts I think. That has lead to much of the debate between churches that insist on following every letter of the bible and those who realize this is difficult to do. But as far as facts go they are there. There is an entire field of study called biblical archaeology present in many of your great public colleges, that attracts just as many atheist as well as religious scientists. To state religion is lies and fiction implies you can prove that all religion is attempting to mislead and does not even possess a factual basis. This is almost impossible to do, but give it a try if you like.

Wow. What you are talking about is history, NOT religion. Those ancient things that have been found are real, but that is history, NOT religion. It does not mean a man walked on water and came back from the dead, sorry. I am a huge history fan. What the bible has done is write and often rewrite, history.

Kathee

 

[KatheeME]

My kids go to school in Ga, and yes, there is no rule against teachers shooting down religious notions, only against promoting them. Religion has been discussed in Biology class, history class, Philosophy class on a daily basis, and Sociology as religion is ok as a topic when you are speaking of other societies, just not our own.

Um, I can say all religion are lies, of it you like it better, a fictious story.

Although the big topics are difficult to prove and equally so to disprove (Jesus existence, Noah, great flood) I can tell you that as an archaelology student and volunteer the bible has been right on hundreds of points. Dozens of supposedly mystical cities mentioned in the bible have be found, Most of the trade routes in the bible have been found. Many of the bibles stories are simply retellings of morality tales and were never meant to be taken as factual accounts I think. That has lead to much of the debate between churches that insist on following every letter of the bible and those who realize this is difficult to do. But as far as facts go they are there. There is an entire field of study called biblical archaeology present in many of your great public colleges, that attracts just as many atheist as well as religious scientists. To state religion is lies and fiction implies you can prove that all religion is attempting to mislead and does not even possess a factual basis. This is almost impossible to do, but give it a try if you like.

If you are talking about public schools in Georgia, there most certainly laws about keeping church and state separate unless Georgia has their own laws. What do you put up with religion in your children's public education that tax payer supported?

Kathee

 

[KatheeME]

Why is it your decision to tell a parent of a Jewish child that they can't send their child to Catholic school, the parents PAY tuition and the school has no problem with the child attending?

It's not my decision, I was replying to those that are trying to defend using tax dollars to send their children to a religious school. No one's tax dollars should ever be used to promote religion, any religion.

 

[KatheeME]

The shame of it is, atheism seems to commonly promote distain for others on this scale. It's ok if you don't believe, but you are actively "dissing" those that do. And for no reason other than you "believe" (ironic, huh?) you are right, so everyone else is not only wrong, but stupid.

I can assure you, we are not stupid, and most of us don't appreciate being talked down to in this manner. Why can't it be a cordial discussion?

Back on topic, you and I agree that vouchers are not good, but for different reasons. It seems the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Hello, friend!

Um, if you are talking to me, I never said anyone was stupid, it's MY opinion how I feel, it's still okay voice that here right?

 

[dsanner106]

If you are talking about public schools in Georgia, there most certainly laws about keeping church and state separate unless Georgia has their own laws. What do you put up with religion in your children's public education that tax payer supported?

Kathee

As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with discussing religion, only in promoting it according to our schools here. Every state does have it's own laws, and the lines can be very blurry about what is and is not acceptable.

D

 

[luvmy3]

As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with discussing religion, only in promoting it according to our schools here. Every state does have it's own laws, and the lines can be very blurry about what is and is not acceptable.

D

What I find is that around religious holidays my children come home with various worksheets, or I should say coloring sheets about the religion and the celebrated holiday. Last year they brought home sheets about Hannakah(sp.) and Kwanza and even came home talking about Ramadan. Nothing ever came home about Christmas, which I found bothered me. I have no problem with my children learning about different religions and their customs but if you do it for one, do it for all.
The only time I would have a big problem is if in my children's public school they were practicing and promoting any of the above religions.

 

[DVC Sadie]

What bothers me about the schools in NOLA is that when the public schools failed they opened up charter schools thinking that would solve the problem but now a lot of those schools are failing so now they are trying the voucher program.

So now some of the parents who already pay tuition to a private school for their kids will no longer be able to afford to send their own kids to private school due their tax burden of supporting 3 different school systems.