High School:Good Grades vs. Challenging Classes

[LargoLori]

From what I am reading, colleges don't really know what to do with an IB program. They certainly are good programs and prepare a student well for college, but the colleges in the U.S. are really on board with AP. I've read a lot on the net that IB programs didn't really help with college admissions.

Weight GPAs are given when a student takes AP courses. Those courses are "worth" more than regular courses. Generally, they are rated at 5.0 versus 4.0. For instance, I know a student who has a weighted 4.5 GPA on a 5.0 scale. I know another that has a 3.5 on a 5.0 scale. If a college looks at these, it gives them an indication that the student has taken harder courses and allows a student who is an AP courses to have a higher average than had that student taken regular courses.

Some schools weight their GPAs and others don't. Some colleges ask for unweighted GPAs regardless of what your high school is providing.

Thank you for the insight on the IB program. I am really on the fence about it and think I would prefer another program. We are lucky here to have different programs to choose from but it does make it more difficult to decide. Also, thank you for the explanation about the weighted GPAs.

Lori

 

[luvavacation]

My eldest was accepted at Purdue. She has taken mostly honors (weighted) courses throughout high school, both because she liked the challenge and the impact the grades would have on her college entrance and class rack.

My daughter did not receive all "A"'s in her weighted courses, but did have, at the end of junior year, a GPA of about 3.9, with and ACT of 31. We thought she would receive one of the nice scholarships, no problem. Well, surprise surprise, Purdue does not accept weighted grades, plus they only accept grades in 4 core classes. Something about how it is not fair to the students from schools that don't have honors or AP courses.

My daughter's GPA was now below the required 3.8 for Purdue scholarships, without the use of the weighted grades. Sure, her class rank at her school is still high, and while that did matter years ago when I was applying, I guess it doesn't matter so much now. Therefore, no scholarship through Purdue.

It bothers me that my daughter worked so hard all her years of schooling to excel in her honors courses, but it doesn't matter. Our younger daughter, we have decided, will go on a different path. Sure, she will still take college prep, but if Honors Geometry is not her strength, we will steer her away from it and have her take regular Geometry.

I wish we knew four years ago what we know now!

 

[Christine]

My eldest was accepted at Purdue. She has taken mostly honors (weighted) courses throughout high school, both because she liked the challenge and the impact the grades would have on her college entrance and class rack.

My daughter did not receive all "A"'s in her weighted courses, but did have, at the end of junior year, a GPA of about 3.9, with and ACT of 31. We thought she would receive one of the nice scholarships, no problem. Well, surprise surprise, Purdue does not accept weighted grades, plus they only accept grades in 4 core classes. Something about how it is not fair to the students from schools that don't have honors or AP courses.

My daughter's GPA was now below the required 3.8 for Purdue scholarships, without the use of the weighted grades. Sure, her class rank at her school is still high, and while that did matter years ago when I was applying, I guess it doesn't matter so much now. Therefore, no scholarship through Purdue.

It bothers me that my daughter worked so hard all her years of schooling to excel in her honors courses, but it doesn't matter. Our younger daughter, we have decided, will go on a different path. Sure, she will still take college prep, but if Honors Geometry is not her strength, we will steer her away from it and have her take regular Geometry.

I wish we knew four years ago what we know now!

This just stinks!!!

I understand your pain. My son, who goes to high school next year, will be taking a very different path than his sister has. It goes against EVERY fiber in my being, but I think I am going to start him out in a general courseload and see how it goes from there. The schools are VERY hesitant to move you down a level if you are struggling in an harder course, but no problems moving you up. I always wanted my kids to be in the most challenging courses they could but, at least for my daughter, it has harmed her.

 

[PlutoPony]

My daughter did not receive all "A"'s in her weighted courses, but did have, at the end of junior year, a GPA of about 3.9, with and ACT of 31. We thought she would receive one of the nice scholarships, no problem. Well, surprise surprise, Purdue does not accept weighted grades, plus they only accept grades in 4 core classes. Something about how it is not fair to the students from schools that don't have honors or AP courses.

Thanks for posting your experience. The explanation makes some sense, although I have mixed feelings about the reasoning. I understand some guidance counselors are now shifting their advice from telling students to load up on AP's or the like, to concentrating on higher weight classes in just those areas that fit with a potential college major - or classes that you're just naturally good at.

 

[laurabelle]

My eldest was accepted at Purdue. She has taken mostly honors (weighted) courses throughout high school, both because she liked the challenge and the impact the grades would have on her college entrance and class rack.

My daughter did not receive all "A"'s in her weighted courses, but did have, at the end of junior year, a GPA of about 3.9, with and ACT of 31. We thought she would receive one of the nice scholarships, no problem. Well, surprise surprise, Purdue does not accept weighted grades, plus they only accept grades in 4 core classes. Something about how it is not fair to the students from schools that don't have honors or AP courses.

My daughter's GPA was now below the required 3.8 for Purdue scholarships, without the use of the weighted grades. Sure, her class rank at her school is still high, and while that did matter years ago when I was applying, I guess it doesn't matter so much now. Therefore, no scholarship through Purdue.

It bothers me that my daughter worked so hard all her years of schooling to excel in her honors courses, but it doesn't matter. Our younger daughter, we have decided, will go on a different path. Sure, she will still take college prep, but if Honors Geometry is not her strength, we will steer her away from it and have her take regular Geometry.

I wish we knew four years ago what we know now!

Thank you for sharing this. I am seriously thinking the heavily weighted courses make the high schools look good and that's why it's being pushed. I figured the GC has the inside track, and as I posted before she said go for the higher GPA.

 

[agnes!]

My eldest was accepted at Purdue. She has taken mostly honors (weighted) courses throughout high school, both because she liked the challenge and the impact the grades would have on her college entrance and class rack.

My daughter did not receive all "A"'s in her weighted courses, but did have, at the end of junior year, a GPA of about 3.9, with and ACT of 31. We thought she would receive one of the nice scholarships, no problem. Well, surprise surprise, Purdue does not accept weighted grades, plus they only accept grades in 4 core classes. Something about how it is not fair to the students from schools that don't have honors or AP courses.

My daughter's GPA was now below the required 3.8 for Purdue scholarships, without the use of the weighted grades. Sure, her class rank at her school is still high, and while that did matter years ago when I was applying, I guess it doesn't matter so much now. Therefore, no scholarship through Purdue.

It bothers me that my daughter worked so hard all her years of schooling to excel in her honors courses, but it doesn't matter. Our younger daughter, we have decided, will go on a different path. Sure, she will still take college prep, but if Honors Geometry is not her strength, we will steer her away from it and have her take regular Geometry.

I wish we knew four years ago what we know now!

OMG.
Frankly, that*SUCKS*. to Purdue.

The thing now, for our kids who are in high-school and presently 9/10/11 graders, is that EVERYONE will be applying for all possible aid/scholarships/grants/etc ...the competition will be fierce for a dwindling pool of money. The stock market downturn has hurt a lot of college funds (including the colleges' own endowments).

agnes!

 

[taximomfor4]

This is downright depressing. My oldest dd has an extremely high IQ, but also has ADHD (unmedicated b/c of side effects). To maintain interest (VERY important), she takes higher level courses -- AP and Honors. But tends to get B's and C's in them. Honestly, though, we could put her in 3rd grade math and she'd STILL not be able to pull A's...she's very inconsistent, even though she totally GETS the material. It's a huge struggle. Testing, especially. She can ace it one day, but the next day fail a test on the exact same material.

So anyway, her GPA hovers right around 3.0. Sounds like she isn't going to be able to even GO to college. She is determined to, but I don't know how she will be able to! She plays viola (hopefully, being a rarer instrument, it will help a little). She volunteers, on her own, through church, and through her Irish Dance school. It scares the bejeesus out of me that the SAT/ACT is her last hope, to even get into a college.

We have no money to pay tuition, DH and I have loans out the wazoo for our own educations still. I KNOW we won't get diddly from a Pell Grant. I was hoping, with her crazy-high IQ (the psychologists who tested her, 2 different ones, said "Think Doogie Howser, but with ADHD thrown in"), she'd actually get some scholarships.

Please, help me figure out how she can improve her chances, now that her GPA has killed her hopes.

 

[Christine]

This is downright depressing. My oldest dd has an extremely high IQ, but also has ADHD (unmedicated b/c of side effects). To maintain interest (VERY important), she takes higher level courses -- AP and Honors. But tends to get B's and C's in them. Honestly, though, we could put her in 3rd grade math and she'd STILL not be able to pull A's...she's very inconsistent, even though she totally GETS the material. It's a huge struggle. Testing, especially. She can ace it one day, but the next day fail a test on the exact same material.

So anyway, her GPA hovers right around 3.0. Sounds like she isn't going to be able to even GO to college. She is determined to, but I don't know how she will be able to! She plays viola (hopefully, being a rarer instrument, it will help a little). She volunteers, on her own, through church, and through her Irish Dance school. It scares the bejeesus out of me that the SAT/ACT is her last hope, to even get into a college.

We have no money to pay tuition, DH and I have loans out the wazoo for our own educations still. I KNOW we won't get diddly from a Pell Grant. I was hoping, with her crazy-high IQ (the psychologists who tested her, 2 different ones, said "Think Doogie Howser, but with ADHD thrown in"), she'd actually get some scholarships.

Please, help me figure out how she can improve her chances, now that her GPA has killed her hopes.

I hope I can make you feel better.

First off, that's wonderful that your daughter can accomplish what she has with her ADHD.

Both of my kids have it. My DD (the one I'm struggling with) has the milder more inattentive form and it is MUCH harder to treat that my son who has a more classic case. Medication does NOTHING for her and she has a terrible time concentrating and a very low threshold for frustration. This is a girl who does ALL her homework, participates in class, and always carries in the 90s for her homework and projects. I will tell you that she bombs just about every test she ever takes. It is awful and we have not found a way around it. She will be carrying a strong B in her classes and her testing will always pull her down to a C. She had an A in Physics but managed to get an F on her mid-term so she ended up with a very low B.

There will always be a college for your daughter with a 3.0 GPA. It may not be the "best" college in your state, but there are plenty of good alternatives that would be thrilled with your daughter's record. I am finding that in the state of Virginia, if you can keep a cumulative GPA of at least 2.5, there is a place for you.

My DD did not do well on the SATs (she took them twice with a prep course too) but did a LOT better on the ACT and enjoyed that test much more. Your daughter may do much better on the ACT.

My son has a very high IQ (unlike my DD who is just normal) and he is very smart, but lazy. Which is why I probably won't push him for AP because of his laziness. Fortunately he is a great test taker and often brings his poor effort up with great test grades!

 

[PlutoPony]

There should definitely be schools you can get into with a 3.0 .... Your HS guidance department should have a pretty good handle on what kind of GPA's are needed at different schools so check with them. Also don't discount the community college system as a good place to start. Many many kids around here with solid B averages go this route.... do a couple years there, get good grades, then transfer successfully to university.

Financial aid may be more of a challenge with lower grades however. Again, your HS guidance department should be able to point you in the right direction about how to find aid that fits your daughter's situation.

 

[Camicar]

I know the answer to this one in our school district.

Based on my DD's very good grades in middle school, she was put in college prep classes in high school. Some of her peers were placed in general courses.

She has struggled in College Prep but the guidance counselor assured me that the colleges will take into account the rigor of her courses.

Well, they haven't. The kids in my daughter's school who are in general courses have a tad bit higher GPA than my daughter. They are getting in places where she is getting denied. I am beyond pissed.

Thank you for posting this truth. The counselors always tell you that the colleges take the fact that the student took more challenging classes, but that is a lie. The colleges look at grades, class rank and test scores. I learned this when I worked at Brown.

My dd's school does not weigh the grades because they have found that the colleges are all asking for the 'unweighted' GPAs anyway. So if you got a B in that AP class, you got a B. Period.

In the end, I had no problem with my dd dropping AP history in favor of regular college-prep history. She has gotten straight 4.0 in those classes, while only one of the kids in AP History got a 4.0 and I know what matters when it comes to college entrance. And since she sucks on standardized tests, it wasn't like she was going to ace the test and save us tons of money on college courses, anyway.

Finally, you never know how you'll do on those tests anyway -- my dh (who graduated summa cum laude from college) took an AP History class and got a 3 on the test so no college credits, I ("only" graduated cum laude) took the same test without taking an AP class (small, poor town so no AP classes) and got a 4 on the test and 8 college credits.

It's a total crap shoot when you choose to take a harder class -- you may screw your GPA and diminish your chances of admission/scholarships.

This reality is something you really need to keep in mind before pushing your kid into those classes. Do NOT believe what the guidance counselors tell you.

 

[taximomfor4]

There should definitely be schools you can get into with a 3.0 .... Your HS guidance department should have a pretty good handle on what kind of GPA's are needed at different schools so check with them. Also don't discount the community college system as a good place to start. Many many kids around here with solid B averages go this route.... do a couple years there, get good grades, then transfer successfully to university.

Financial aid may be more of a challenge with lower grades however. Again, your HS guidance department should be able to point you in the right direction about how to find aid that fits your daughter's situation.

Thanks. I hope she can go to a 4-year. that is the only way she will get money from her dad (divorce papers say he pays 4 more years, as long as she is enrolled full time at a 4-year college). It's not much money, but it WOULD feed her or something ($70/week). If she goes part time, or to a jr college, child support stops. (It was written in as an incentive to NOT play around with education, but now it's causing new problems).

Anyway, sorry, OP, for drifting off topic. I was just getting so disheartened from reading this thread. College options for my dd are causing me all sorts of stress. I even tried to talk her into doing ROTC. She does NOT want to be military (sees enough of that from her uncle, who's been in for 12 yrs now).

 

[punkin]

What about taking the harder courses because the child is bored stiff in normal college prep? My DD is only in Honors and APs (except for the required few courses) because there was absolutely no intellectual stimulation for her. However, as others have mentioned, she sucks at tests (standardized or otherwise) so her grades fluctuate between Cs and As (surprisingly, she is doing better in APs than Honors). I really see no problem with her unweighted 3.2 average other than the college she will be looking at are lower on the spectrum.

About classes for SATs...I have no idea who is any good and they all seem to be astronomically expensive. I would appreciate some recommendations.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Please, help me figure out how she can improve her chances, now that her GPA has killed her hopes.

There are colleges she can go to, it just won't be the ones that you guys are shooting for.

Currently my nephew is looking at a school 5 hrs away.
He blew his soph yr due to divorce.

If you don't have alot of money and are looking at all loans, you can do community college and then transfer in. A few of dd's friends are doing this. Does your school have a community college program associated with it?

Several friends are also going local and living at home.

 

[claudia]

This is downright depressing. My oldest dd has an extremely high IQ, but also has ADHD (unmedicated b/c of side effects). To maintain interest (VERY important), she takes higher level courses -- AP and Honors. But tends to get B's and C's in them. Honestly, though, we could put her in 3rd grade math and she'd STILL not be able to pull A's...she's very inconsistent, even though she totally GETS the material. It's a huge struggle. Testing, especially. She can ace it one day, but the next day fail a test on the exact same material.

So anyway, her GPA hovers right around 3.0. Sounds like she isn't going to be able to even GO to college. She is determined to, but I don't know how she will be able to! She plays viola (hopefully, being a rarer instrument, it will help a little). She volunteers, on her own, through church, and through her Irish Dance school. It scares the bejeesus out of me that the SAT/ACT is her last hope, to even get into a college.

We have no money to pay tuition, DH and I have loans out the wazoo for our own educations still. I KNOW we won't get diddly from a Pell Grant. I was hoping, with her crazy-high IQ (the psychologists who tested her, 2 different ones, said "Think Doogie Howser, but with ADHD thrown in"), she'd actually get some scholarships.

Please, help me figure out how she can improve her chances, now that her GPA has killed her hopes.

I don't think a 3.0 is going to be a problem. ADVICE: Also remember that colleges superscore SAT's , so definitely have her take it more than once....even 3 times if need be. Remember also that it is not only the GPA/SAT that schools are looking for, there will be teacher recommendations, essays and other things like your daughter's music and volunteerism. Search through collegeboard.com, fastweb.com for scholarship information. Do your homework and search them out.....also remember that college app's many times have a section for "other things we should know about you"...you can always add on her stuggle with ADHD. (I am a mom with a DS with ADD....been there.....trust me....don't get worried, get organized with a plan of attack!) Personally I would set up an appointment with the school guidance counselor to let them help you with a plan as well.

 

[Christine]

What about taking the harder courses because the child is bored stiff in normal college prep? My DD is only in Honors and APs (except for the required few courses) because there was absolutely no intellectual stimulation for her. However, as others have mentioned, she sucks at tests (standardized or otherwise) so her grades fluctuate between Cs and As (surprisingly, she is doing better in APs than Honors). I really see no problem with her unweighted 3.2 average other than the college she will be looking at are lower on the spectrum.

About classes for SATs...I have no idea who is any good and they all seem to be astronomically expensive. I would appreciate some recommendations.

I see nothing wrong with taking those classes if you want too. My issue is pushing kids to this courses when they have to struggle hard to keep up or maintain a B. What is it doing for them at that point? Nothing. But certainly, if you enjoy those classes and they interest you, you should be in them and not worry about the GPA. You are getting something from them at that point.

My DD took her SAT prep course at her school. The school offered it for $75 for a 4-week course and they gave her the big study guide with it. I know that many public schools offer the course for free.

I don't know anyone who used one of those expensive private courses.

 

[agnes!]

I see nothing wrong with taking those classes if you want too. My issue is pushing kids to this courses when they have to struggle hard to keep up or maintain a B. What is it doing for them at that point? Nothing. But certainly, if you enjoy those classes and they interest you, you should be in them and not worry about the GPA. You are getting something from them at that point.

My DD took her SAT prep course at her school. The school offered it for $75 for a 4-week course and they gave her the big study guide with it. I know that many public schools offer the course for free.

I don't know anyone who used one of those expensive private courses.

My DD's school's SAT/PSAT prep workshop at her school lasts many weeks with mandatory Saturday classes once a month. Well guess what....extracurriculars (think mandatory Science Fairs, mandatory music festivals, etc) interfere so she couldn't do it. I think it's funny, because the course is being offered right now in the spring rather than closer to when her class starts taking the actual tests (PSAT/etc) in the fall. I think I'll have her enroll in the online version sometime this summer so the material will be fresh, she can do it on her own schedule and the course will take place closer to when she actually takes the test.

agnes!

 

[claudia]

About classes for SATs...I have no idea who is any good and they all seem to be astronomically expensive. I would appreciate some recommendations.

Our son wanted to try one of the courses because he felt he didn't do as well as he would have liked on his first SAT. So we signed him up of the Hampton Review which cost just under $400. (I think this schools/prep centers are local.....maybe something like The Huntington Learning Center is more available around the country) Anyway, he felt that it did nothing for him and when he took the SAT a second time his score was 100+ in each section....but he said to me that he felt it was knowing what to expect the second time around that made the difference, not taking the class. SO...if you have a child that does better when they have the chance to do it a second time maybe skip the prep, but if you have a child that feels better prepared by learning that way I would go with the prep classes.

 

[Green Tea]

DS' English teacher told her class that they are better off with a "C" in an AP class than with an "A" or a "B" in an Honors class. I have to disagree with that!

We will find an AP course geared towards DS' interests. I can tell you...there's no way he'll ever take AP English.

for top colleges, she is 100% correct

 

[KSchwagg86]

I did all honors courses and got B's, sometimes C's in them...My brother did no honors courses and got all A's...he was accepted quickly to my first choice, while I was not...We both had the same amount of extra-curriculars-I probably had more

 

[luvavacation]

Ok, am I the only one that can't figure out how to correct their previous post? I never added the computer hitting smiley, and I want to correct my mistaken spellings, but I keep getting logged out. Ugh. Really, I am a more capable speller!

Anyway, I just wanted to add that while the grades not being weighted applies to Purdue, I don't know about other schools, so please don't think that my family's experience is the norm. My daughter only wanted Purdue, though we visited many schools, and this was Purdue's way of doing things. We never applied at other schools to know their criteria.

Oddly enough, for admission criteria, they did took the GPA from all her classes (non-weighted ), but for scholarship, they did not, just the 4 cour classes, which included an Honors Trig grade that was a "C", and an Honors Chem grade that was also a "C" (non-weighted). Both teachers had a habit of losing graded but unrecorded papers, which you would not know about until the end of the semester, and they never let the students make up the lost papers. A high proportion of students do not do well in those two teacher's classes, but not much is done by the school. Live and learn (and DD's experience with those teachers was part of her entrance essay for Purdue!). Bummer. Being out of state, that Presidential or Trustee scholarship would have been a great help!

I am sure there must be other schools out there that calculate GPA differently, hopefully in a way that is more indicitive of the work done by your students!