Help with son who spends more than he makes

[Dakota731]

A lot of that is the current emphasis by the powers that be in our government on test scores.

That's an easy answer but it just doesn't hold water. We had standardized tests every three years way back when I was in school over thirty years ago and that didn't hinder us from learning anything. Sometimes the basic memorization, spelling and math drills really do work. And kids are always going to have to take tests (though some are getting away from that - let's just pass everyone whether they are learning or not). There has to be a way to hold schools accountable, and the fact is that over the past few decades, there is a big difference in the lack of basic skills that kids who are entering college have mastered. Part of the reason is that more and more students are going to college who maybe should not be. There are often higher paying jobs in the trades industry and many more opportunities. There are thousands of young people graduating with a bachelor's degree every year who end up in minimum wage jobs and piles of debt.

 

[barkley]

It also has a lot to do with the push to a four year college. My son is not four year college material. He hates school. Getting him to read his assignments or write a paper is pulling teeth. But he is good at shop, he's a hard worker, he is careful and consciousness when it comes to activities outside academia and he wants to go to trade school.

I had to jump through hoops so the kid wouldn't need to take pre-calc. It isn't required for graduation, but his counselor kept telling him, and me, that "four years of math is needed for college." I had to jump through hoops to get him pulled from college prep chemistry. He doesn't WANT to go to college.

We don't set up kids for success because we've defined success to be a box. We need plumbers and electricians and truck drivers and construction workers and mechanics. Am I disappointed that my kid isn't a great reader who is college bound - yeah, I am. I fancy myself an intellectual and get great enjoyment from these things, and I wish he could share them. But I'm not going to try to cram my kid into my box that he shows no interest in - that won't make him happy or successful. The fact that I, as a parent, have to fight the school on this is troubling.

totally seeing that here at our local high school, only it's becoming not even a matter of choice for the students/parents.

I clearly remember when dd was gearing up to start her high school freshman year in '09-the local high school made a big point of talking about how while they met the state requirements (and in some cases exceeded) it was important for students/parents to look to the graduation requirements section of the handbook b/c it would show, side by side-what the pathways were to graduate either planning on/not planning on going to a 4 year college straight out of high school. with one of the pathways being going into a trade school/program. there was the ability for a student, between what was available to them between their allotted elective and 'occupational education' credits to take a variety as well as sequential trade classes.

over the past few years we've seen the trade classes dwindle and dwindle-now we see why in the school handbook. for the kids graduating beginning in 2019-the required high school curriculum is identical (and in some subjects exceeds) to the requirements for entry into a 4 year college. no more is there the option of not taking a foreign language or not (I have nothing against it-just can't see forcing it to be taken if a kid has no desire to learn it/no desire to go onto a 4 year college), no longer opting out of those college prep type math or science classes b/c graduation mandates so many credits of both-and they only offer the college prep type for that final required class.

occupational education has been completely eliminated in favor of 'career and tech ed' (so no taking any trade classes for that requirement-only business and computer science based classes), and using your electives to try to pick them up? it used to be that over the course of 4 years a student could self select 7 courses to explore different interests so you often had a kid who tried out a couple of the trades in freshman year and really went to town learning them subsequent years-no more. 4 years/4 electives PERIOD. the kicker being no more offerings like 'shop' (though they still offer mechanics)-offerings are more along the line of business technology/accounting and c.a.d.-all of which are areas that require college.

it will be interesting to see if the high school graduation rate declines in future years-it seems as though it's simply become college prep.

 

[Clare Voince]

totally seeing that here at our local high school, only it's becoming not even a matter of choice for the students/parents.

I clearly remember when dd was gearing up to start her high school freshman year in '09-the local high school made a big point of talking about how while they met the state requirements (and in some cases exceeded) it was important for students/parents to look to the graduation requirements section of the handbook b/c it would show, side by side-what the pathways were to graduate either planning on/not planning on going to a 4 year college straight out of high school. with one of the pathways being going into a trade school/program. there was the ability for a student, between what was available to them between their allotted elective and 'occupational education' credits to take a variety as well as sequential trade classes.

over the past few years we've seen the trade classes dwindle and dwindle-now we see why in the school handbook. for the kids graduating beginning in 2019-the required high school curriculum is identical (and in some subjects exceeds) to the requirements for entry into a 4 year college. no more is there the option of not taking a foreign language or not (I have nothing against it-just can't see forcing it to be taken if a kid has no desire to learn it/no desire to go onto a 4 year college), no longer opting out of those college prep type math or science classes b/c graduation mandates so many credits of both-and they only offer the college prep type for that final required class.

occupational education has been completely eliminated in favor of 'career and tech ed' (so no taking any trade classes for that requirement-only business and computer science based classes), and using your electives to try to pick them up? it used to be that over the course of 4 years a student could self select 7 courses to explore different interests so you often had a kid who tried out a couple of the trades in freshman year and really went to town learning them subsequent years-no more. 4 years/4 electives PERIOD. the kicker being no more offerings like 'shop' (though they still offer mechanics)-offerings are more along the line of business technology/accounting and c.a.d.-all of which are areas that require college.

it will be interesting to see if the high school graduation rate declines in future years-it seems as though it's simply become college prep.

The purpose of High School should not be to just prepare them for jobs. Job training can come at any age. Nothing is stopping those minimum wage college graduates from learning a trade also. In my opinion, we need to teach kids how to think critically, have basic skills, and be well-rounded individuals. A mechanic doesn't have to be ignorant of literature. Teaching a non-college bound student a foreign language may make them more tolerant of individuals they encounter for whom English is not their first language. There is value in an education beyond what job you will have.

 

[jeepnjudy]

My first thought regarding this thread is helicopter parent. It is time to stop rescuing your son and allow him to experience the natural consequences of his actions/behaviors whether that results in a bad credit score or not. My theory is if I am working harder to assist another person than that person is working to assist themselves, it is time to step back and re-evaluate my role!

 

[Wish I lived in Fl]

That's an easy answer but it just doesn't hold water. We had standardized tests every three years way back when I was in school over thirty years ago and that didn't hinder us from learning anything. Sometimes the basic memorization, spelling and math drills really do work. And kids are always going to have to take tests (though some are getting away from that - let's just pass everyone whether they are learning or not). There has to be a way to hold schools accountable, and the fact is that over the past few decades, there is a big difference in the lack of basic skills that kids who are entering college have mastered. Part of the reason is that more and more students are going to college who maybe should not be. There are often higher paying jobs in the trades industry and many more opportunities. There are thousands of young people graduating with a bachelor's degree every year who end up in minimum wage jobs and piles of debt.

I had only 2 days each year of California standardized testing in my New York Public school years.

In Massachusetts ,starting in 3rd grade,my kids have had 4 to 6 days of testing every year: two sessions math, two sessions reading comprehension, and some years 1 session composition and 1 session science. The schedule for the tests, retests, makeups and deadlines is 4 1/2 pages. http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/1516schedule.pdf It really is a heavy administrative burden. I used to work in a MA High School and trying to attach teacher accountability to standardized testing was not as easy to implement as people thought. MA chose to have graduation requirements of passing English, Math and Science MCAS tests. Most students took the Biology MCAS for their science MCAS. The school changed Biology from a Sophomore course to a Freshman course to give students more time to pass a retest if necessary. They added a half year Freshman course designed to supplement the Biology course. A new 2 year Biology course was added for the students that would have a hard time passing the test. A biology course was offered specifically for students who failed the first time. So at the end Biology is taught to all Freshman by the Biology teachers. How can that be reasonably used to hold the Chemistry, Physics, Anatomy, Marine Science etc. teachers accountable? The accountability issue was stretched so even Physical Education teachers were held accountable for English MCAS scores.

I think Regents in New York State had the best system. Each Academic High School course could be non-Regents or Regents level. The area to be covered was well defined. All students taking a Biology Regents course took the same test at the end of the year. All Chemistry students took the Chemistry Regents exam at the end of the year. If a student took 3 science courses and passed the 3 Regents exam then they received a Regents science certificate and the same for English and History and not sure about the rest because it was 35 years ago! I imagine that could be used to compare teacher effectiveness if their student makeup was taken into account.

However the Education system is not going to fix the employment situation. It was predicted that there would be a high demand for Chemical Engineers and I earned a Bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering. I graduated in time for the oil collapse and for most chemical manufacturing companies to move overseas. It is not that we are poorly educating the majority of our students but that there are too few jobs that pay enough to support a family even if both parents work. Wages are stagnant or decreasing where I am. Expenses have skyrocketed.

Finland took a completely opposite approach to improving their educational system 40 years ago. Paying the teachers MORE, having them work LESS, and restricting teaching to the top 10% of graduates.
http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

When smart women were restricted in their job choices the teacher population benefited. But now women with smarts and drive and dedication have more choices.
The perception of the US Educational system as having problems is widespread but there are many good schools doing good work.
My Husband is very critical of the public school system despite having never attended nor ever working in a public school. So I think his perception is based entirely on negative " News".

 

[crisi]

The purpose of High School should not be to just prepare them for jobs. Job training can come at any age. Nothing is stopping those minimum wage college graduates from learning a trade also. In my opinion, we need to teach kids how to think critically, have basic skills, and be well-rounded individuals. A mechanic doesn't have to be ignorant of literature. Teaching a non-college bound student a foreign language may make them more tolerant of individuals they encounter for whom English is not their first language. There is value in an education beyond what job you will have.

Nah. I'm a well rounded individual who can get along (or used to be able to) in three languages. But taking a foreign language doesn't automatically make you more tolerant, and reading The Great Gatsby does not make you well rounded. And thinking critically - well, I'm not convinced its a skill that everyone can learn, but I am pretty convinced that the way to teach them to think critically is not through literature, but through actually practicing critical thinking through teaching fact analysis, source analysis and logic.

I am pretty convinced that people who are good critical thinkers are born that way. Those of us with that skill seem to think it can be taught, and some of it can - but a lot of what is critical thinking is talent - its being able to think abstractly through something - and that is hard for a lot of people. And tolerance....if you get intolerance at home or from the larger society, years and years of foreign language won't make an impact.

I've spent a lot of time working in technology - with people who are not well rounded or tolerant. But they are functional human beings with their own interests and their own views. I could wish we could teach them my values - which include a love of learning, critical thinking, and tolerance. But I don't believe that we can do much more than touch on it in school, give them a taste. But whether it is the kid who after a taste of PhyEd determines they never want to play softball or basketball again in their lives, or the kid who having read some Great American Literature determines its not for them, I think we need to respect their differences as people, too. That's true tolerance.

 

[seasheller]

He will never learn if you don't let him. Stop paying anything for him. At 21 he should be taking care of himself and his bills. If he moves out, you won't see what he owes. It is the ONLY way he will grow up. You are not helping him! It's called tough love.

 

[starry_solo]

I know I'm bumping this up to the first page (from like page 5 or 6), but I was reading "Dear Abby" online today and this came up:

http://news.yahoo.com/parents-supporting-adult-son-doing-him-no-favors-050906576.html