Heart Murmur in Kitten

[Pea-n-Me]

That thought had crossed my mind, too, @TipsyTraveler. It sounded to me, though, that the breeder had had several other kittens/cats with this issue and didn’t rush to euthanize. It’s worth having a conversation about it, though - but there are no guarantees. I have a good friend who breeds dogs, is considered a top breeder, and she is not someone who would do that. I’ve been through several losses of her dogs with her and she’s every bit as broken up each time as I am with mine, and keeps hers for life, special needs or not. (She has one right now that she is going through extraordinary lengths for.) I know it happens - and not just with breeders - but there are some out there who wouldn’t. Maybe she’s one.

 

[robinb]

Thanks everyone! I'm speaking to the breeder today. I'll update you when I know more. The breeder just posted a video of the 2nd black smoke kitten and he's adorable too. Sadly, my DH has said "no" to BOGO kittens as we already have a 14-year old cat .

 

[CAPSLOCK]

6oz less is a significant stunting in growth for such a young kitten. Nearly 1/3 less than the healthy littermates (unless they're a really big breed - most kittens will be about 1.5lbs at 6 weeks). That makes me think he is a kitten who has general failure to thrive and/or a major medical concern - there wouldn't be a size difference with an innocent heart murmur. He potentially has numerous medical concerns, which may or may not even be treatable and/or allow a normal lifespan (or even adulthood, depending on severity of the underlying issue). That's a big ask on anyone - hence when the breeder is effectively offering to give him away. If you take him, you just need to be realistic about his future and have an idea how far you are willing to go with whatever issues emerge, and understand that you are giving him a great life for what might not be a long time.

And I agree with making sure any pet insurance includes any/all preexisting conditions - most don't.

 

[lilmc]

An “innocent kitten murmur” is usually a grade 1-2 out of 6 and is outgrown by 6 months. A murmur grading higher than that is less likely to be outgrown and is more likely to represent a defect in the heart, which may or may not be a problem, but will need an echocardiogram and evaluation by a cardiologist to determine diagnosis and prognosis. Insurance is a moot point since it will be a preexisting conditions that will be excluded.

 

[robinb]

6oz less is a significant stunting in growth for such a young kitten. Nearly 1/3 less than the healthy littermates (unless they're a really big breed - most kittens will be about 1.5lbs at 6 weeks). That makes me think he is a kitten who has general failure to thrive and/or a major medical concern - there wouldn't be a size difference with an innocent heart murmur. He potentially has numerous medical concerns, which may or may not even be treatable and/or allow a normal lifespan (or even adulthood, depending on severity of the underlying issue). That's a big ask on anyone - hence when the breeder is effectively offering to give him away. If you take him, you just need to be realistic about his future and have an idea how far you are willing to go with whatever issues emerge, and understand that you are giving him a great life for what might not be a long time.

And I agree with making sure any pet insurance includes any/all preexisting conditions - most don't.

That is what I am most worried about. The breeds is not a big one. My slightly chonky 14 year old male weighs about 10 lbs. He gained after my other cat died in April .

 

[violina]

Hmm, we're an animal household so I'd go with the BOGO and get both.

But to answer your question, one of our first adoptions had a heart murmur, along with a host of issues. We just celebrated his 11th year with us. The heart murmur hasn't been an issue and he grew out of a lot of the issues he had as a kitten. He's a healthy, albeit lazy cat.

We knew about his health issues going into the adoption. That didn't change our opinion much, in fact it gave us even more of a even reason to give him a good home.

 

[Imzadi]

The breeder is probably offering the deals because she's also afraid nobody will want him.

6oz less is a significant stunting in growth for such a young kitten. Nearly 1/3 less than the healthy littermates (unless they're a really big breed - most kittens will be about 1.5lbs at 6 weeks). That makes me think he is a kitten who has general failure to thrive and/or a major medical concern - there wouldn't be a size difference with an innocent heart murmur. He potentially has numerous medical concerns, which may or may not even be treatable and/or allow a normal lifespan (or even adulthood, depending on severity of the underlying issue). That's a big ask on anyone - hence when the breeder is effectively offering to give him away. If you take him, you just need to be realistic about his future and have an idea how far you are willing to go with whatever issues emerge, and understand that you are giving him a great life for what might not be a long time.

And I agree with making sure any pet insurance includes any/all preexisting conditions - most don't.

An “innocent kitten murmur” is usually a grade 1-2 out of 6 and is outgrown by 6 months. A murmur grading higher than that is less likely to be outgrown and is more likely to represent a defect in the heart, which may or may not be a problem, but will need an echocardiogram and evaluation by a cardiologist to determine diagnosis and prognosis. Insurance is a moot point since it will be a preexisting conditions that will be excluded.

I agree with all these.

There is a sense of urgency placed on this exchange by the breeder. The breeder says she wants to place the healthy smoke colored kitten up for adoption next week as she has people interested in it. (Understandable, kittens can double in size in no time. And there is a sweet spot for adoption time.) Yet, she feels no sense of urgency to get the stunted kitten properly examined by a vet who can professionally diagnose the intensity and location of the heart murmur. In fact, that exam is being put off for a month, at least!

Is there only ONE vet in all of WI who can run the test or echocardiogram? This is for a test, not treatment. I can understand one wanting to wait for treatment from one's usual vet. Wouldn't a specialist be the one doing an echocardiogram (or whichever is the right department for the right tests,) NOT a regular vet.

And one can be told a preliminary, "The heart does look small, but doesn't appear to have any major abnormalities. Of course, your vet will discuss the results with you." Versus, ". . . There does appear to be some abnormalities. You definitely need to discuss this with your vet and possibly a cardiologist. I can't give you any more details." (Something like that. I had a radiologist who was able to assess a previous situation I had. She didn't just run the machines and take the photos/x-rays without some knowledge of what she was shooting.)

So, WHY an urgency for one kitten who MAY have possible interest? Yet no urgency for the kitten in which there is definitely interest by Robin?

It MAY be that she doesn't want actual details yet that she'd be forced to disclose. She's willing to make a vague "heart murmur" as a warning to any customers. And she may be hoping that you will just fall in love with a kitten so much that she suspects has real problems, and will then take it off her hands and you become the ones to deal with the problems. Whether it means putting down the kitten or living with it with all it's upcoming medical problems.

Be careful what this BOGO "deal" is possibly about that's no deal for your heart IF the worst happens and way too soon.
And for all of you who said, "Someone has to take the kitten to care for, even with all the problems." NO they don't.

And NO, ROBIN shouldn't be guilt tripped into being the one to care for that kitten if she wants a different kitten. Just because she learned of that kitten doesn't OBLIGATE her to be the one to care for it. Robin deserves a healthy kitten if she wants that instead. No shade, no shame in wanting that for herself and family.

There are hundreds of HEALTHY kittens and cats overcrowding shelters which will be euthanized this month due to overcrowding. Cats which would have lived long, healthy, wonderful lives if given a chance. There is no dearth of adoptable cats. So, no, one doesn't have to take an unhealthy kitty one learns about, unless one wants to be the one to care for it. (We already know why Robin wants a specific type of breed. My example wasn't about her getting a shelter cat.)

Robin, maybe it is enough for that kitten that you loved it from afar for several days, before it goes on to whatever fate awaits it. (It could also go to someone totally up for the challenge of taking care of it, with no doubts or hesitation.) You knew it exists. You gave it more love than those healthy kittens in shelters, or on the streets, got this week. That can be enough.

 

[robinb]

Hi everyone! Thank you for your comments, ideas and support.

I talked to the breeder, who lives a couple states away, for over and hour yesterday. She started off by telling me that she thinks that I have a really tough decision and would not know what to do in my situation.

I told her that I was most concerned with the white kitten's weight in combination with the heart murmur and that I think it might be an indication of a failure to thrive. She said that the white kitten has started eating better and then weighed both brothers. The white kitten is now only 5 oz less (18 oz) than his brother (23 oz). That is still a big weight difference but he's gained an ounce in difference in 4 days so his weight gain is going in the right direction. She also tells me that both kittens are quite active and play and bunny hop like crazy so the white kitten is not sluggish and lethargic.

She checks his heartbeat daily and there is still a murmur. I told her that I would like to hear directly from a veterinarian about the white kitten's heart murmur. She said that her veterinarian used to raise and show a breed which are known for Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) so he is super attuned to heart murmurs and errs on the side of caution when it comes to them. He is in the process of retiring now, is gone for all of January and is only seeing patients once a week in February. She has an appointment for February 12th to get the kittens examined and neutered. They will be 12 weeks old at that point, which is a little sooner than she usually neuters, but she wanted to get the white kitten in ASAP. The vet will be able to grade the heart murmur (between 1 - 6) and pinpoint the location. He will not neuter the white kitten if he feels the heart murmur is too intense.

She also told me that if the kitten does indeed have a failure to thrive that he we would defiantly see it by the time he's 12 weeks old. There is a big growth spurt right before then and some kittens' hearts simply don't keep up and they die. She has not had that happen to any of her kittens, but she knows many breeders of her breed and other breeds who have experienced that loss.

Now, onto the smoke kitten who is just 2 1/2 weeks old. She told the woman who was interested in him that he was probably spoken for by me. The woman was fine with that and said to put her on the waitlist for another kitten out of that mom. The breeder says that if I pass on the smoke kitten that the woman would be happy to take the smoke kitten but she's just as happy to wait for the next litter. So, this kitten is defiantly still an option. He will be the same age as the white kitten in now when the white one sees the vet so we will know more about his personality.

Toward the end of our conversation, the breeder told me that she thinks that the smoke kitten would actually be a better fit for me. She acknowledged that I was taken with the blue eyes of the white kitten but asked me if personality was more important than color. It is. She says that his mom produces really great kittens with loving snuggle bug personalities, which is what I'm looking for. She said that she received many Christmas greetings from her cat parents and the owners of kittens from this mom sent more messages raving about their cats. She also told me that she wouldn't have a problem placing the white kitten if I pass on him. She says that she knows some folks who would be happy to give him a happy home for as long as he lives. She also said that if neither kitten does it for me, I could stay on the waitlist for a kitten from the next litter.

So, the ball is totally in my court with no guilt or pressure to take one over the other. It looks like the 2nd full week in February (5 weeks from today) will be my decision point. It will come down to the health of the white kitten and the personality of both kittens. The white kitten will still be an option if he makes it and the vet diagnoses him with a lower grade heart murmur and neuters him without concern. Otherwise, I'm starting to lean toward the smoke kitten if his personality follows that of his older brothers and sisters.

 

[robinb]

Update:

My kitten is now 12 weeks old. The breeder took the two kittens in his litter into the vet to be examined and to be neutered. The vet, an expert at heart murmurs, said that my kitten has a level 5 or 6 (the worst) heart murmur. They went ahead and neutered him, even through the surgery may have been dangerous. He did fine. The breeder is paying for an echocardiogram on Wednesday. It's expensive, but it will tell us for sure if he has a damaged heart.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he's OK. He is quite active and plays strenuously with his brother. He is, however, quite a bit smaller. His brother weighs 46 ounces and my kitten weighs 35 ounces. BUT, I've been tracking his weight for the past month and both kittens have doubled in size and my kitten put on proportionally more weight. The brother went from being 37% bigger to being 30% bigger. I'm not sure if that means anything or if it's just wishful thinking.

I had decided that I would not take him if he had a 5 or 6 heart murmur, but if his heart checks out I'll reconsider it.

In any case, the other kitten is still available to me and my husband is still against a BOGO. Attached photos were take 2 weeks ago, so 10 weeks and 6 weeks respectively. The dark kitten will have green eyes.

 

[mom2rtk]

Then there’s my real mind who says I should take both because I both want a healthy kitten and because I know how these things go. And, how they “go” is, that heart murmur kitten will most likely be quietly euthanized if you don’t take him.

This is immediately where my mind went.

 

[Imzadi]

Update:

My kitten is now 12 weeks old. The breeder took the two kittens in his litter into the vet to be examined and to be neutered. The vet, an expert at heart murmurs, said that my kitten has a level 5 or 6 (the worst) heart murmur. They went ahead and neutered him, even through the surgery may have been dangerous. He did fine. The breeder is paying for an echocardiogram on Wednesday. It's expensive, but it will tell us for sure if he has a damaged heart.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he's OK. He is quite active and plays strenuously with his brother. He is, however, quite a bit smaller. His brother weighs 46 ounces and my kitten weighs 35 ounces. BUT, I've been tracking his weight for the past month and both kittens have doubled in size and my kitten put on proportionally more weight. The brother went from being 37% bigger to being 30% bigger. I'm not sure if that means anything or if it's just wishful thinking.

I had decided that I would not take him if he had a 5 or 6 heart murmur, but if his heart checks out I'll reconsider it.

In any case, the other kitten is still available to me and my husband is still against a BOGO. Attached photos were take 2 weeks ago, so 10 weeks and 6 weeks respectively. The dark kitten will have green eyes.

Thanks for the update so far. Sorry about the level of the heart murmur. Still crossing fingers about the kitten's heart.

YOUR right kitten is still in your future, whether it is this one or another. Keep the faith.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Oh, they're both adorable!!

 

[dizneegirl]

In any case, the other kitten is still available to me and my husband is still against a BOGO.

Your husband may be against it in theory, but two adorable little kittens would quickly win him over. Besides, kitties need friends, and every lap should have a kitty of its own.

 

[Imzadi]

My logical mind says to take the healthy kitten. Because, duh.

Then there’s my real mind who says I should take both because I both want a healthy kitten and because I know how these things go. And, how they “go” is, that heart murmur kitten will most likely be quietly euthanized if you don’t take him.

This is immediately where my mind went.

It is NOT Robin's responsibility nor should it be her obligation to be guilt tripped into taking this kitten if it's not not right for her, just because she is aware of it's existence and what may be ahead if she doesn't take it.

The breeder could just as well drop the kitten off to the local shelter and fully disclose it's medical condition. Someone, being told it all could decide to adopt it anyway and love it for all it's worth in the time it has.

 

[robinb]

This is immediately where my mind went.

It is NOT Robin's responsibility nor should it be her obligation to be guilt tripped into taking this kitten if it's not not right for her, just because she is aware of it's existence and what may be ahead if she doesn't take it.

The breeder could just as well drop the kitten off to the local shelter and fully disclose it's medical condition. Someone, being told it all could decide to adopt it anyway and love it for all it's worth in the time it has.

The breeder has assured me that if I do not take the white kitten, she will find a place for him with another person interested in his breed. Full disclosure. I believe her. She has been a champion of this rare breed for decades and is well known in both show and pet circles.

 

[mom2rtk]

It is NOT Robin's responsibility nor should it be her obligation to be guilt tripped into taking this kitten if it's not not right for her, just because she is aware of it's existence and what may be ahead if she doesn't take it.

The breeder could just as well drop the kitten off to the local shelter and fully disclose it's medical condition. Someone, being told it all could decide to adopt it anyway and love it for all it's worth in the time it has.

Robin has already addressed this above, but I just wanted to say I agree it is 100% not her responsibility. I'm just saying it would still weigh on me in that situation.

I also don't expect to find myself ever needing to make this decision. Robin made it very clear why she needs to use a breeder. But I never will (thankfully don't have the allergy concerns). Our pets have always been rescues and always will be.

 

[robinb]

Bad news . The kitten has a heart defect. He has a hole in his heart between chambers and is already in heart failure. His life expectancy is a few months, even with medication. The breeder is going to keep him and love on him until he is in too much pain and then she’ll help him over the rainbow bridge. I’m pretty sad right now . She says he’s a real sweetheart.

 

[CAPSLOCK]

Sorry to hear, but glad they were able to figure out his issue and let him make the best of the time he has.

 

[where_else]

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out the way you would have liked

 

[QueenIsabella]

I'm sorry to hear that. You may have read about my exploits with Florence, a kitten I rescued during Hurricane, well, Florence. Flo is a dilute calico ragdoll and a huge diva. Well, when we rescued her, we also rescued her two brothers--we called them Fatso (biggest) and Runty (smallest). They were about 3 weeks old when we found them. They were all doing well for a couple weeks, then one day, Runty didn't seem right. He just looked weak and sick. Not much to do--I had a dental appointment, and when I came back, he was dead. It broke my heart--he was my favorite of the three, developing perfect gray points (Fatso had tinges of red on his points). One of my kids said, "I guess we WERE his forever home!"

At least you can take comfort, knowing that this kitten will be loved and cared for, for all of his short life. I guess that's my point.