Fool on the Hill: You Can't Cheat Quality

[All Aboard]

they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me.

OK, but why must things be "added"? Personaly, I think WDW would be great if nothing else was ever added.

I still think WDW is a great place and would find it hard to not have a great time there

Wonderful! I agree! Would you like a turn at the steering wheel of car #1

Universal/IOA is NOT just about "high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences", but if people are closed minded and too full of disney's pixie dust they just might miss that fact.

No, no, I didn't say that was ALL it was about. I just said that's the only arena in which it leads WDW. I know there's more to it. They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

I might agree that WDW is VERY slightly cleaner than the Universal parks

Now see, I thought you were of the opinion that the Universal parks far surpassed WDW in this area. Sorry for the mistake.

 

[Another Voice]

Where to start…..

Walt didn’t care a bit for the Magic Kingdom at Disney World. He let others develop that section to please the money people. A clone was a guaranteed money maker to fund the real purpose for the Florida Project. Walt’s interest and energy were focused on EPCOT which he felt was going to be his real legacy. And EPCOT was nothing like Celebration in any sense.

Touchstone Pictures was created well before Mr. Eisner showed up on the scene. ‘Splash’ was released and was a hit long before Eisner was a gleam in Roy E.’s eye. In fact, there was a long line of Touchstone Pictures that were released or in development well before Mr. Eisner took control. The biggest changes Eisner made to the Studio was to push for hard-R rated movies and to raid the Betty Ford Clinic for cheap talent.

Both ‘Little Mermaid’ and ‘Beauty and the Beast’ were in development before Eisner came on board as well. In fact, he wanted both pictures shut down – and only Jeffrey Katzenberg was able to talk him out of it. Mr. Eisner’s contribution to animation was ‘Oliver and Company’, a film he was determined was “hip and exciting”. He also really like that ‘Rescuers Down Under’ flick since his future for animation is action/adventure.

The magic of the revived Disney animation was created by Alan Menken, Howard Ashman, Linda Wolverton and Jeffrey Katzenberg. Compare the films produced by this group to the films produced after. Eisner came in intending to shut-down feature animation and convert everything to Saturday morning children’s show. For a while people were able to stop him, but no longer.

‘Pearl Harbor’ has already become a shorthand phrase for “high profile failure” here in Hollywood. The film was disowned by both its writer and its director before it was released. Estimates are that the film will loose the company roughly $50 million dollars when the video and international sales are finished. The film’s producer has already taken his next project – ‘Blackhawk Down’ to another studio. It’s the studio run by the Disney studio chief that Eisner fired right before he fired the last one. A sadder comment is that Disney spent more money on the premier party for ‘Pearl’ than it cost to make the leading contender for this year’s Best Picture Oscar (‘Memento’). So much for an “instant classic”.

Rose colored glasses or blinders. Everyone has their own choice of eyewear.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I normally don't do "ditto" type posts (or at least I try not to). But this one was an exception. Not only was the content right on the money but there is one quote that had me on the floor. And isn't that why we're here after all? To have a little fun? So, even if you don't like what Av said, I think you could at least get a chuckle out of how he says it!!

The biggest changes Eisner made to the Studio was to push for hard-R rated movies and to raid the Betty Ford Clinic for cheap talent.

Thanks again AV!! You are the man!!

 

[HBK]

They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

The only thing missing from what I've seen of the park (and I'll see it first hand in October) is the Disney brand name & characters.

At the rate in which Ei$ner & Co have been trowing away that brand name recognition, Universal will be caught up in no time.

 

[F.C. Fan]

The cleanliness of the parks will keep going down unless people stop by Guest Relations at the parks and make their observations known.

It's not the people who do the physical work, not even the managers above them, but the higher ups the people who just sit in their air-conditioned/heated offices in charge of the money, and who never hardly ever venture out into the parks themselves, that keeping cutting hours, money, and employees in Janitorial at WDW and Park Services at USF.

These crews are constantly understaffed,and underpaid, the equipment is sometimes not up to par, morale is usually very low.

It is so hard to keep those parks clean with little or no help, and people that don't want to give even 50% to their job. I know I used to do it for USF, it's not easy work pressure washing/hosing the streets and buildings and some of the rides for 6-8 hours straight form 11pm to 7am.

I know for a fact the same things go on at WDW as well (people are always going back and forth between the companies and would tell me things are really no better at either company).

I used to go way beyond the call of duty.Why?? It certainly wasn't the money, a little of it was for the benefits but for the most part I gave it my all for the "guests" themselves, and being able to look back at the job or area I just did, and knowing that it would for the most part be overlooked by most people but if it made anyone's vacation or visit more enjoyable then it was all woth it.

So like I said before if you do notice cleanliness standards dipping down make it known, or else the people in charge of the money, employees and their hours for that department will keep getting away with it.

 

[hopemax]

If this is true, some traditional classics are in trouble because they were not real commerically successful.

Which ones were you thinking about...

On the adjusted all-time box office standings

http://www.boxofficereport.com/atbon/adjusted.shtml

10 Snow White (1937)*$184.9 $587.6 m
11 101 Dalmatians (1961)* $152.6 m $566.9 m
15 Mary Poppins (1964)* $102.3 m $501.3 m
19 The Jungle Book (1967)* $135.5 m $466.4 m
22 Fantasia (1940)* $76.4 m $447.6 m
25 The Lion King (1994) $312.9 m $403.4 m
26 Sleeping Beauty (1959)* $51.6 m $391.6 m
30 Bambi (1942)* $102.8 m $379.4 m
36 Pinocchio (1940)* $84.3 m $363.3 m
45 Cinderella (1950)* $91.3 m $336.8 m
61 Lady and the Tramp (1955)* $93.6 m $300.3 m
76 Aladdin (1992) $217.4 m $282.3 m
79 Song of the South (1946)* $65.0 m $277.8 m
92 Toy Story 2 (1999) $245.8 m $260.8 m
105 Peter Pan (1953)* $87.4 m $245.9 m
155 Swiss Family Robinson (1960)* $40.4 m $204.9 m

 

[johare]

gcurling,

OK, but why must things be "added"? Personaly, I think WDW would be great if nothing else was ever added.

I'm would have been ok with this serveral years ago...before they replaced JII with JIYI, before they closed Horizons, before they close 20K under the sea, before they closed the Skyway, before they replaced Mr. Toad with Pooh and generic pooh gift show, before they built 2-3 more Dumbo clones, before they put a big ugly blue hat at MGM, before they built a cheap carnival at AK, etc... hopefully you get the point. They would have been better doing nothing at all over the past 10 years vs. what they've wasted money on.

Wonderful! I agree! Would you like a turn at the steering wheel of car #1

Not unless you want me to drive that car over to Universal!
No, I still don't belong in car #1 because I definately don't feel the magic is as strong as ever. I'm can be somewhat optimistic about the 'magic', but I do believe that it is in some serious trouble lately. I guess that would leave me somewhere between #2 and #3.

No, no, I didn't say that was ALL it was about. I just said that's the only arena in which it leads WDW. I know there's more to it. They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

I guess this is another area where we disagree because I don't think 'thrills' is the only area in which Universal leads WDW. I think IOA is themed as well as anything Disney has ever done. Cat in the Hat is better than any 'dark ride' in Fantasyland, in fact I think Suess Landing beats Fantasyland. The onsite hotels are the equal of anything I've seen at Disney. What elements do you think are missing at Universal that make WDW the world leader? I think the main thing that Universal is missing is the Disney name and the childhood memories that are attached to it. The children of today aren't as into Disney as they were years ago and if Disney doesn't do a little more to build memories and magic now, it's going to continue to hurt them in the future.

Now see, I thought you were of the opinion that the Universal parks far surpassed WDW in this area. Sorry for the mistake.

No, but chasing every single gum wrapper or cigarette butt that hits the ground isn't that important to me. I think for the most part both WDW and Universal keep their parks very clean, but there are exceptions to both. I've seen areas at Universal Studios which needed some cleaning up, but I've also encountered overflowing trash cans in the queue lines at AK. Neither park is perfect here, but right now I might give a VERY slight edge to Disney here.

 

[DisDuck]

Johare, I have been at IOA twice, pre-openng and April of 2000. Did not expect much at pre-opening liked Jurrasic but that Pterodon was lame and Tricerotops a total waste of Money. Loved Spiderman. Now when back last year with everything opened, it took me from 9am to 3am to see everything that I cared to see. Pterodon was now limited to little kids only and I did not even look for Tricerotops Encounter. I am nor is my daughter and wife into coasters so we bypassed them. Went on Spider, so great and did Dudley and Popeye for the first time. Dudley's themeing was a DUD. I had read on the Universal forum before going how they had upgraded the themeing, if that was an upgrade gee I wonder what it looked like before, must have been real bad. I liked the park overall but did not get the feeling of 'magic'/'show' that I get a Disney.

I have mentioned several times when posting to these kinds of discussions, appraisal of a park is very subjective. We each have certain things/themes we like and others we don't like. I am not a thrill/coaster person, neither is my younger daughter so IOA is nice but not an all-day park to me nor does it take me back to being a child again. And I read Dr. Suess and was an advid comic book reader so I knew all about the Marval and Suess areas but they just didn't do it for me. WDW does.

That is my subjective opinion and I feel like I am going home when at WDW.

Will I return to IOA or even USF next year? Don't know. If my wife and daughter want to then yes; otherwise not.

So to say one park is 'greater' than 'another'; one park is falling behind another is subjective. As someone posted if more go to IOA/USF then less lines at WDW, that's fine with me.

 

[All Aboard]

Hope,

the "*" on those film dates indicate that total receipts are from all releases. Many (if not most) of them made that list because of the re-releases, not the initial release.

 

[YoHo]

Thanks gcurling, I was going to mention that as well. as much as I like to harp on that list as being more realistic then a list that doesn't adjust. the one thing it ignores is relreleases. now IIRC Disney is set to re-release Beauty to Theaters. in some ways this is unprecidented. In this day and age, VCRs and DVDs have killed theatrical re-releases(From a revenue standpoint) Example, I am 26 years old and Saw pinochio in the theater in the late 70's. the money my parents payed is included in its total gross.

 

[Another Voice]

I’m falling behind here on some of the sub-threads.

The only factor that makes a “classic” is story. Good storytelling is about people and we haven’t changed much since the ancient Greeks. Good stories will hold up over thousands of years, bad ones fade in a week. Any movie that can be watched and enjoyed twenty, thirty, fifty years after it was made is a classic. In some films you can spot strong stories right away – people will still be watching ‘Beauty and The Beast’ fifty years from now. Others are so weak they can’t support a movie through a month in the theaters (‘Pearl Harbor’).

Box office is important way to at least gage the immediate impact of a story. If you can convince fifty million people to leave their homes and pay to see something, you must have touched a nerve somewhere. But a “box office hit” today means something vastly different today than it did in either the pre-VCR or pre-television world. That’s why this whole exercise in picking out Walt’s flops is somewhat misguided – you can’t use modern standards to judge what happened fifty years ago.

Before television, films would be release for years traveling from city to city. Movie distribution was almost like that for theatrical plays. A film was expected to earn money slowly over a long period of time. There were a few giant hits like ‘Gone With The Wind’ and ‘Snow White’ that made fortunes right from the beginning, but only a few. Most films were like ‘Casablanca’ – they just hung around for a long time and earned money. Time weeded out the good ones from the bad ones.

Today’s media saturated world is entirely different. Thanks to television, movies have become fast food – enjoyed in a hurry and disposed of just as fast. The goal is to get in and get the money before the next new thing comes along. And thanks to the VCR the theatrical release for most movies is nothing but marketing for the home video sales group. The size of the audience has grown tremendously because of all the different means of distribution (theaters, cable, DVD, etc.), but the life span of a film has been compressed to compensate.

A lot of the Disney classics made fortunes through the re-releases. In fact, it used to be a cherished truth in the company that the financial “flop” called ‘Fantasia’ had been in theaters somewhere in the world every single day since 1940 and was a consistent money maker. Today, movies burn through their life span in 36 months – from glittering Hollywood premier to DVD release to video wallpaper on third rate cable channels.

Time sorts out classics from the mediocre. It’s the willingness of an audience to continuing watching the story being told whether it was last weekend’s box office leader or a silent movie from the beginning of last century. That’s why a “flop” like ‘Pinocchio’ is a classic, and strong box office for ‘Atlantis’ doesn’t mean a long shelf life.

 

[hopemax]

I know it includes re-releases, but the end result is that even movies that under-performed in initial release became commercial successes.

Today's films don't have the advantage of re-releases, because of PPV, VCR's, DVD's and a myriad of other factors. And maybe someday we will see those sales figures included in a total.

But that doesn't change that Pinocchio, Bambi, Fantasia and the rest have made a ton of money, and thus can be called successful films.

 

[JustBob]

I know it's backing up a bit, but regarding whether kids like things or think they "suck" (a term I really find distasteful) - their attitude is largely influenced by our attitude. Strangely enough, however, when they're kids and preteens they tend to agree with our attitude, when they're teens they tend to do what they can to say they disagree with our attitude.
So, if a parent of a small child thinks things are boring, and sends those vibes to the kid, the kid will think things are boring. If a parent of a teen likes a lot of things, the teen will inevitably think it's boring. I know this is really general, but I think we tend to let the kids be the ones determining whether something is good or not. In today's culture kids (and parents) seem to be the most easily jaded of all time. NOTHING is ever good enough, or cool enough. Hence every movie, and thrill ride, and attraction, is busting a gut to be the next special effects extravaganza.
I guess that's why I agree with those who say they love Disney for a lot of reasons, one of which is the generally outstanding live entertainment and shows.

Oh well, I love the debate, let's just continue to play nice.

 

[Laurajean1014]

What a crock! Don't agree with this at all.

Me and Mickey won't been seeing you any time soon!

 

[JeffH]

"I don't quite have the 'rose colored glasses' view that many recent posters seem to have. "
No, you are the one with the 'rose colored glasses' constantly seeing the past in some strange light. When you go looking for 'problems' you will inveritably find them.
As gcurling stated, I can also make a long list of things I'd like improved at WDW as well, but the fact is, despite that list WDW is still the happiest place on Earth.

"... however there is NO EXCUSE for peeling paint, burnt out light bulbs, trash not being picked up promptly..."
I've been going to WDW since it opened (>400 days)and it has always been cleaner and that hasn't changed. In fact last Winter I had to run to get a drawing my daughter made at a kidcot stop that blew away before a cleaner got it. Note: Last fall they DID improve their Main Street light maintenance (after we all *****ed about it, here). And I do not expect Disney to scrape and paint everything every night, check every bulb every night, or flood the parks with garbage men.

"...45+ minute waits for buses"
Buses are the least magical (-magic) things at WDW, but the alternative, monorails, are prohibitively expensive. At least buses keep cars off the roads.

"..., cheap carnival type rides"
Like Dumbo, and Cinderella's Carrosel...
Actually, the recent trend of B-C attractions, are well overdue, after a long string of new parks featuring d-e type attractions (waterparks, MGM/DS, AK), Disney is finally getting around to adding a few 'kiddy' rides, that haven't been built since the Magic Kingdom opened.
As gcurling also stated, I'm sure my daughter will love them, as she did the new Aladdin ride.

"...and the general 'bad attitude' Disney seems to have lately. "
I don't know what this means, but CMs are friendlier and more helpful now then ever before.

"Before they even think of adding another E-Ticket ride they need to worry about getting the parks back to the quality levels that Disney used to be known for. "
Those rose colored glasses again...

"I can't make excuses for their recent films either. Epic or not, Pearl Harbor sucked. "
I heard nothing but good things about it, and I don't listen to critics, they are known for trying to make headlines for bashing a blockbuster.

"...uninspired thing I've seen in a long time"
Hogwash, I never seen a film create this much "inspiration" over a holiday.

"...I haven't seen Atlantis yet, but friends have and even though they were Disney fans, they were disappointed with it...and they loved Shrek. "
I loved Shrek, too, but Atlantis was many times better, the plot base (the mystery of Atlantis, verses an ogre love story), the characters (all of them in Atlantis verses an ogre and a donkey), the comedy, action and adventure of Atlantis verses the comic 'sampling' of fairy tale classics. And everyone I talked to loved it...was very impressed by it.

"And I'm sorry, but box office results DO determine when a movie is a classic/masterpiece."
No, they determine box office hits, luckily most c/ms do moderately well at the box office because they are so good. But just because a film 'only' makes 75 million, or doesn't make a profit (due to high production costs), doesn't make it a bomb or a failure

"they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me"
If you aren't impressed by the research and detail (and results) that went into AK, or the amazing live shows at MGM, or the majestic resort hotels (WL, AKL) then you don't understand Disney at all. Even Reflections of Earth, and Tapestry of Nations is very impressive. Hell, Buzz Lightyear impressed Universal so much they built their own copy.
"...millions who agree" with you..."
Then add in all those that make the MK, Epcot, MGM and Ak 4 of the top 5 attended parks in the world. And all those who consider the water parks at WDW 2 of the best in the world...
Even if IOA is every bit at detailed, clean, themed, friendly and landscaped as WDW, it still doesn't mean WDW needs to then do better.

...before they replaced JII with JIYI, before they closed Horizons before they close 20K under the sea, before they closed the Skyway, before they replaced Mr. Toad with Pooh and generic pooh gift show, before they built 2-3 more Dumbo clones"
And don't forget the World of Motion...BUT they opened AK and turned MGM into a monster of a park with Hunchback, Ariel, ToT, R&RC and Fantasmic as well---all is much better (as is Pooh than Toad). And considering how hectic Fantasyland is, that beautiful lagoon is a breath of fresh air (although I'd rather have a new submarine ride).

"..., before they put a big ugly blue hat at MGM"
??? Mickey's sorcerer hat ugly?
MK has the castle, Epcot has the geosphere, AK has the tree, MGM/DS finally has an icon. Sorry but the Chinese Theatre has NOTHING to do with Disney in any way, and the hat is no more out of place at MGM/DS than the Castle is at the end of Main Street USA.

"before they built a cheap carnival at AK"
Compared to MK when it opened that featured along with the handful of E-attractions: vehicle rides down Main Street, a walk-thru treehouse, and those other cheap carnival rides, Disney is only adding the minor attractions that they left out when AK opened.

"etc... hopefully you get the point. "
Yes, I hope you do.

"They would have been better doing nothing at all over the past 10 years vs. what they've wasted money on. "
Where have YOU been the last 10 years? WDW has done/created more in the last 10 years than the 20 before that. Now 10 years ago, WDW was pitiful...Epcot (and MK) was stagnant, MGM/DS had just opened, was a poorly landscaped half day park, which aside from Indiana Jones, had nothing to return for. There was no Downtown Disney only Typhoon Lagoon, and most of the Disney hotels that fill up today were unbuilt. All that was turned around in the last 10 years.
------
Walt was very involved in the development of WDW, and stood on the construction site as the MK was being built.
Celebration is as close to the Experimental Community of Tommorrow as WDW ever got...Epcot was nothing like Walt Disney described.
Sorry, "Splash" stood out in my mind because it was Ron Howard's (not MEs) 1st big hit. ME joined Disney the SAME YEAR Splash was released. Oliver (a good musical film in the typical Disney style, inspired by Oliver Twist), came out then later (my daughter enjoyed that), but the Little Mermaid came out in 1989 (over 4 years later)...since the normal development time for an animated film is 4 years and the long line of animated 'classics' (from Little Mermaid to Atlantis)started almost exactly 4 years after ME joined Disney and he hired most of the people 'responsible' for the films, I think he deserves the credit due.

 

[johare]

Well JeffH, everything you posted is only your opinion. I'm sure that some might share your views but there are also many who do not and you can count me among them.


How many people to you think share the view that...

"Atlantis is MANY times better than Shrek"

or regarding the lagoon left empty by 20K:

"considering how hectic Fantasyland is, that beautiful lagoon is a breath of fresh air "

or regarding the Big Blue Hat at MGM:

"the hat is no more out of place at MGM/DS than the Castle is at the end of Main Street USA"

or regarding adding carnival rides to AK:

"Disney is only adding the minor attractions that they left out when AK opened"

Rose colored glasses indeed...if your glasses were any rosier you'd have to worry about getting poked in the eye by the thorns.

 

[F.C. Fan]

Right on Johare

My fav was the comment about the Buzz Lightyear ride at Disney.
M.I.B. was on the drawing boards long before the quick retro-fit Dis did with Buzz.

Just like Spiderman, M.I.B. is a completely new from the ground up multi-million dollar attraction with incredible technology and theming(that's alot of fun to boot) that 1-ups Disney at their own game. Not a quick retro-fit of an old attraction.

Don't get me wrong Jeff H, I think it's awesome that you have such a great time with your family at Disney, but for us who don't have (and in my case don't want) kids.
It's nice to have places to go that cater to us as well as the children.

 

[johare]

Thanks F.C. Fan...I was going to mention the MIB thing too. Comparing MIB to Buzz is just as ridiculous as comparing the Hulk to Goofy's Barnstormer.

I've got two boys, 7 and 4 and even though we enjoy the parks at WDW, they both prefer to go to Universal and IOA. I think the difference for them is all the interactive playground type areas like Camp Jurassic, Jurassic Discovery Center, Me Ship the Olive, If I ran the Zoo Playground, Fievel's Playland and Curious George Goes to Town. I don't see anything that comes close to these play areas over at the Disney parks.

 

[space42]

Well, I am not sure if I would feel as negative as I do if it were not for a little theme park called Tokyo Disney Sea. We have a very interesting scenario happening right now. Disney will have had two new theme parks opened this year. Come September, it will be interesting to see how the public reacts to this new park in Tokyo. We already know how things are turning out for the one in CA. If you have not yet had the opportunity to check out this park, you can see the concept art and construction photos at http://www.tokyoresort.com Be sure to check out the concept art! WOW!!! What a park.

The thing that sticks out the most from the concept art/construction photos is the attention to detail! There are many great E-Ticket rides being built. Yet, no roller coasters or off the shelf amusement park rides with plywood cutout thememing. This park screams Disney quality! They even have a 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea attraction!! How about that!

I tell you what. I have heard a few people say that the only way that the Disney Company will hear our complaints is if we stop buying their products. Here is what I plan to do. I also plan to send a letter to Disney stating this.

I am a FL resident living about 2 – 3 hours away from WDW. I am also a seasonal pass holder. I usually go to WDW many times from fall to spring. This year, I am not going to renew my pass. I have long had a plan to visit CA and go to the Disneyland resort next year. Since I have been under whelmed with what I have seen from DCA and over whelmed with what I have seen from Tokyo Disney Sea. I plan to save the money I would have spent going to CA and renewing my pass. Plus with all of those hotel charges (I always stay on site at WDW). I figure the money I save will go a long way towards my trip to Tokyo! Hey, if we can dream it we can do it right?

 

[johare]

...but if you go to Tokyo Disney instead of California Disney they will still get your money so why would they care?