Fool on the Hill: You Can't Cheat Quality
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Yeah, and if a bunch of cranky Bostonians hadn't got fed up over a Tea Tax increase then there would be no USA and thus no Disney. I'm sure we can play this game forever. Universal also was the first to offer studio tours, decades before Disneyland was built, and it was Walt's thoughts about having a Studio tour by Steam engine that helped crystalize his plans for Disneyland, that don't mean Universal developed the Theme park. The point is, DIsney invented the Theme park. He didn't call it a Theme park no, but a theme park is not an Amusment park. Walt didn't call putting in rides based on his films Synergy Either, but that's what it is.
Riverview or Cooney Island or the Pier at Santa Cruz is an Amusment park. A theme Park is (loosely) an Amusment park where the attractions are grouped by common theme and decorated to support that theme.
The entire Concept is of doing that is pure Walt Disney.
Riverview or Cooney Island or the Pier at Santa Cruz is an Amusment park. A theme Park is (loosely) an Amusment park where the attractions are grouped by common theme and decorated to support that theme.
The entire Concept is of doing that is pure Walt Disney.
Yoho
Technically your right about the 10 years comment. I totally agree that Spash (92) and TOT (94) are all-time classics. Let's throw Indy into the mix (95) while we are at it. Some of the gems of AK must have been greenlighted in this timeframe as well. It just goes to show that great things can happen under an Eisner watch.
However, around this time (IMHO) they started to reduce the amount of extravagance (if I can borrow a term from another thread) they were willing to put into their product. They cut the highly extravagant BK, while going with the less extravagant Kali. Some very fun rides have been added to WDW since, but none comes close to these standards of extravagance. I think we can say the same thing about a good portion of DCA. So 10 years would be a stretch, but it sure has been more than 5. I guess we just got spoiled.
AV
I agree with your IOA comment. If this was a Disney gate and had the advantage of Disney charaters and storylines for their show, people would be pointing to this as an example of what great things Disney can still produce.
Others
We can all have our opinions on whether Buzz or MIB is more fun to ride, and after all, what we enjoy is really what counts most. But from an attraction design standpoint they aren't even close. It's like trying to compare DudleyD. to Splash Mountain. Spash Mountain is cleary a quantum leap above DD. I enjoy both Buzz and MIB, but in terms of the quality of the design effort, MIB is lightyear's ahead of Buzz.
Technically your right about the 10 years comment. I totally agree that Spash (92) and TOT (94) are all-time classics. Let's throw Indy into the mix (95) while we are at it. Some of the gems of AK must have been greenlighted in this timeframe as well. It just goes to show that great things can happen under an Eisner watch.
However, around this time (IMHO) they started to reduce the amount of extravagance (if I can borrow a term from another thread) they were willing to put into their product. They cut the highly extravagant BK, while going with the less extravagant Kali. Some very fun rides have been added to WDW since, but none comes close to these standards of extravagance. I think we can say the same thing about a good portion of DCA. So 10 years would be a stretch, but it sure has been more than 5. I guess we just got spoiled.
AV
I agree with your IOA comment. If this was a Disney gate and had the advantage of Disney charaters and storylines for their show, people would be pointing to this as an example of what great things Disney can still produce.
Others
We can all have our opinions on whether Buzz or MIB is more fun to ride, and after all, what we enjoy is really what counts most. But from an attraction design standpoint they aren't even close. It's like trying to compare DudleyD. to Splash Mountain. Spash Mountain is cleary a quantum leap above DD. I enjoy both Buzz and MIB, but in terms of the quality of the design effort, MIB is lightyear's ahead of Buzz.
larworth, I don't personally think its been much more then 5, At most its been the 8 or so years since Wells died. Our first real signs were JIYI and the Incomplete AK. Or, with AK, I'd more suggest the Still incomplete AK, since I unlike some would be more then willing to forgive them opening the place without Beastly Kingdom if they had actually bother to try to get it in in a timely manner.
Kali River Rapids is one of those Annoying Eisner Enigma's so much of the Themeing of the queue areas and such is beyond beautiful, but the ride is just too short. its like they thought, hey maybe if we put enough extravagance in before the ride, they won't notice the terrible ride.
Kali River Rapids is one of those Annoying Eisner Enigma's so much of the Themeing of the queue areas and such is beyond beautiful, but the ride is just too short. its like they thought, hey maybe if we put enough extravagance in before the ride, they won't notice the terrible ride.
Just because Walt created the first park which would be considered a true 'theme park' doesn't mean that we wouldn't have theme parks today if it wasn't for him.
If Thomas Edison didn't come up with the first light bulb would we all be reading by candle light?
If Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone would we still all be using the pony express?
If Henry Ford didn't come up with the automobile would be all be riding horses?
No...and if Walt Disney didn't come up with the first 'theme park' I'm quite certain that someone else would have.
If Thomas Edison didn't come up with the first light bulb would we all be reading by candle light?
If Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone would we still all be using the pony express?
If Henry Ford didn't come up with the automobile would be all be riding horses?
No...and if Walt Disney didn't come up with the first 'theme park' I'm quite certain that someone else would have.
But that's not what happened (Ford did not invent the Automobile by the way)
Disney DId invent the Theme Park.
Look, Do you doubt that the only reason Universal studio's Florida and IOA exist as they do today is because Walt built Disneyland and Disney has been raking it in ever since?
The time and the mind was right Disneyland. Walt had the Ambition, The IP, and the want to educate. I suppose its like a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Sure, someone else could have dreamt it up, but Walt Dreamt it up and made serious change on it.
Like I said above, Ford Didn't invent the Car, but he did make use of the Assemply line to get Rich off of it.
Not only that, but Orlando was a one gator swamp before Disney drove in. Some may lament the passing of the more Floridian vacations of the past, but the fact remains that Universal would have had no reason to build in Florida if it weren't for Disney. PLUS, Walt's plans for the florida property were far different from what we actualy got. If E.P.C.O.T. had been built as planned, would Universal have built there?
So there you have it, there are what 3 or 4 things that had to happen for Universal to build a Theme Park in Florida. The odds of them Happening without Disney are pretty slim. Not that they wouldn't all have happened, but that they would all have happened at the same place and time.
Disney DId invent the Theme Park.
Look, Do you doubt that the only reason Universal studio's Florida and IOA exist as they do today is because Walt built Disneyland and Disney has been raking it in ever since?
The time and the mind was right Disneyland. Walt had the Ambition, The IP, and the want to educate. I suppose its like a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Sure, someone else could have dreamt it up, but Walt Dreamt it up and made serious change on it.
Like I said above, Ford Didn't invent the Car, but he did make use of the Assemply line to get Rich off of it.
Not only that, but Orlando was a one gator swamp before Disney drove in. Some may lament the passing of the more Floridian vacations of the past, but the fact remains that Universal would have had no reason to build in Florida if it weren't for Disney. PLUS, Walt's plans for the florida property were far different from what we actualy got. If E.P.C.O.T. had been built as planned, would Universal have built there?
So there you have it, there are what 3 or 4 things that had to happen for Universal to build a Theme Park in Florida. The odds of them Happening without Disney are pretty slim. Not that they wouldn't all have happened, but that they would all have happened at the same place and time.
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Boy, this thread has taken so many twists and turns... Since there was alot of talk of how IOA is beating the pants off WDW, I thought I might have to give the place a good look this weekend. Been to USF several times, though. So I started to do a little research to see how good a theme park it would be for my daughter. You see, there are only 3 attractions in all of WDW (out of over 110) that she is not permitted to enjoy - Space M, Alien Enc & RnR. Well, turns out that there are 12 rides at IOA, and guess what, she's not permitted on 7 of them, and several of them are quite a few years out of reach. Guess we'll have to wait to see IOA. Who said it wasn't a thrill park?
YoHo
I don't doubt that a bit, but you need to recognize the fact that there would be no Disney as we know it in Florida or any other part of our lives as well, if not for Universal's actions. Without Mickey Mouse there wouldn't be any of it at all, Mr Disney even said it himself.
Universal's actions changed Disney as we now know it forever, as well as what was in store for themselves down the road, and that is a fact plain and simple. Without those actions that occurred all those years ago you wouldn't have the parks you like, and I wouldn't have the parks that I like, plus all the other great multi-media stuff that both companies have to offer.
I don't doubt that a bit, but you need to recognize the fact that there would be no Disney as we know it in Florida or any other part of our lives as well, if not for Universal's actions. Without Mickey Mouse there wouldn't be any of it at all, Mr Disney even said it himself.
Universal's actions changed Disney as we now know it forever, as well as what was in store for themselves down the road, and that is a fact plain and simple. Without those actions that occurred all those years ago you wouldn't have the parks you like, and I wouldn't have the parks that I like, plus all the other great multi-media stuff that both companies have to offer.
F.C. Fan, I understand that,
The thing we are currently discussing is a chicken and egg type thing. There would be nothing without the mouse and Universal certainly drove Walt to create his own studio, but the Idea behind the theme park was truely all in Walt's head. It may be true that someone else would have come up with it, but not as early as Walt did. There was literally nobody else at the time working on a project remotley like Disneyland. I think its nieve to suggest that if there had been no Walt, it would have simply sprung up as if by magic.
It simply isn't true.
In short, this all started with the comment
Universal florida (which kind of needs to exist in florida doesn't it?)
Would not exist in the way we know it were it not for Walt Disney, Plain and simple.
All of which came out of the MiB vs. Buzz argument which is a microcosm for UE is better then WDW which while it is a debatable position is by no means a proven one.
You know, I've really forgotten what the hell the point of all this was. MK will probably still out draw IOA on a park to park basis this year, so Universal doesn't have that crown yet. they're just a scrappy little upstart.
The thing we are currently discussing is a chicken and egg type thing. There would be nothing without the mouse and Universal certainly drove Walt to create his own studio, but the Idea behind the theme park was truely all in Walt's head. It may be true that someone else would have come up with it, but not as early as Walt did. There was literally nobody else at the time working on a project remotley like Disneyland. I think its nieve to suggest that if there had been no Walt, it would have simply sprung up as if by magic.
It simply isn't true.
In short, this all started with the comment
Universal florida (which kind of needs to exist in florida doesn't it?)
Would not exist in the way we know it were it not for Walt Disney, Plain and simple.
All of which came out of the MiB vs. Buzz argument which is a microcosm for UE is better then WDW which while it is a debatable position is by no means a proven one.
You know, I've really forgotten what the hell the point of all this was. MK will probably still out draw IOA on a park to park basis this year, so Universal doesn't have that crown yet. they're just a scrappy little upstart.
Yoho
You don't understand.
If he were just an animator for Universal(animating OSWALD) do you really believe there would have been a DL or WDW or anything else associated with Disney?? If he already had the idea for a park then why didn't he just set off to make a park??? Why waste time making movies??? DL would have been built in the 30's or 40's instead of the 50's.
It wasn't until he had success, fame, independence, and most importantly, money, that he started thinking about things other than the movies which had got him to that point(which was all started by a mouse).There wouldn't have been any park ideas in his head.
Once again I will say "NO Mickey NO" parks or anything else Disney oriented, because he would not have had the means to do so under Universal's employment.
You don't understand.
If he were just an animator for Universal(animating OSWALD) do you really believe there would have been a DL or WDW or anything else associated with Disney?? If he already had the idea for a park then why didn't he just set off to make a park??? Why waste time making movies??? DL would have been built in the 30's or 40's instead of the 50's.
It wasn't until he had success, fame, independence, and most importantly, money, that he started thinking about things other than the movies which had got him to that point(which was all started by a mouse).There wouldn't have been any park ideas in his head.
Once again I will say "NO Mickey NO" parks or anything else Disney oriented, because he would not have had the means to do so under Universal's employment.
gcurling...
And how tall is your daugter?
I noticed how you conviently counted only rides at IOA, yet counted the ATTRACTIONS at all 4 of the WDW parks...and probably included the water parks to to arrive at that 110 figure.
From your post I'm guessing your daugther is in the 40" height range since the only 7 attractions at IOA which require you to be taller than 40" are Fire Dragon, Ice Dragon, Hulk, Dr. Doom's Fearfall, Popeye, Dudley Doright and Jurassic Park River Adventure and I know of 3 (like you said) at WDW that require over 40"...Rock and Roller Coaster, Alien Encounter and Space Mountain.
I count at least 10 major attractions at IOA that she can still enjoy (not only 5)... Spiderman, Pterandodon Flyers, Storm Force, Flying Unicorn, Caro-Suess-El, One Fish Two Fish, Cat in the Hat, Posiedon's Fury, 8th Voyage of Sinbad, Tricapterops Encounter. There are also several interactive play areas (somthing Disney lacks) that she can enjoy such as Me Ship the Olive, Camp Jurassic, If I ran the Zoo and the Jurassic Park Discovery Center.
Sounds like you are trying to spin the numbers to make WDW look better and IOA look worse here...
And how tall is your daugter?
I noticed how you conviently counted only rides at IOA, yet counted the ATTRACTIONS at all 4 of the WDW parks...and probably included the water parks to to arrive at that 110 figure.
From your post I'm guessing your daugther is in the 40" height range since the only 7 attractions at IOA which require you to be taller than 40" are Fire Dragon, Ice Dragon, Hulk, Dr. Doom's Fearfall, Popeye, Dudley Doright and Jurassic Park River Adventure and I know of 3 (like you said) at WDW that require over 40"...Rock and Roller Coaster, Alien Encounter and Space Mountain.
I count at least 10 major attractions at IOA that she can still enjoy (not only 5)... Spiderman, Pterandodon Flyers, Storm Force, Flying Unicorn, Caro-Suess-El, One Fish Two Fish, Cat in the Hat, Posiedon's Fury, 8th Voyage of Sinbad, Tricapterops Encounter. There are also several interactive play areas (somthing Disney lacks) that she can enjoy such as Me Ship the Olive, Camp Jurassic, If I ran the Zoo and the Jurassic Park Discovery Center.
Sounds like you are trying to spin the numbers to make WDW look better and IOA look worse here...
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Here is the error of my ways:
1. I assumed Poseidon's Fury had a 42" height requirement. (I read it on this site, sorry Pete.)
2. I was counting rides for IOA, so Triceratops and Sinbad were not counted.
3. I missed Stormforce altogether
4. I counted the Dragons as one attraction.
So, there are 8 rides that she is tall enough for at IOA. Plus the Sinbad show, Triceratops + the play areas. Still, she is procluded from a large percentage of total attractions.
Is Spiderman ok for a 3.5 year old? I'm seriously asking this question, I am actually still considering going this weekend.
1. I assumed Poseidon's Fury had a 42" height requirement. (I read it on this site, sorry Pete.)
2. I was counting rides for IOA, so Triceratops and Sinbad were not counted.
3. I missed Stormforce altogether
4. I counted the Dragons as one attraction.
So, there are 8 rides that she is tall enough for at IOA. Plus the Sinbad show, Triceratops + the play areas. Still, she is procluded from a large percentage of total attractions.
Is Spiderman ok for a 3.5 year old? I'm seriously asking this question, I am actually still considering going this weekend.
Spiderman might be ok for a 3.5 year old. My 4 year old has been on it a couple times but lately he seems afraid to go on again. Does she go on rides like Star Tours and Dinosaur? If so Spiderman shouldn't be problem.
As for the attractions...she can't go on about 5 of the 20 attractions I count at IOA. That shouldn't stop her at all from enjoying the place...especially the play areas like Camp Jurassic and If I ran the Zoo. Lunch at Circus McGurkus is also fun with small kids especially if you go when characters are there.
As for Disney, I count at most 71 attractions across the 4 parks...30 at MK, 18 for Epcot, 16 for the Studios and 8 for AK. Where did you come up with an extra 39 attractions?
As for the attractions...she can't go on about 5 of the 20 attractions I count at IOA. That shouldn't stop her at all from enjoying the place...especially the play areas like Camp Jurassic and If I ran the Zoo. Lunch at Circus McGurkus is also fun with small kids especially if you go when characters are there.
As for Disney, I count at most 71 attractions across the 4 parks...30 at MK, 18 for Epcot, 16 for the Studios and 8 for AK. Where did you come up with an extra 39 attractions?
cindyfan
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Just looking at the rides at IOA vs the rides or "attractions" at WDW. For my time and money.......I know there is no way that we would get our money's worth at IOA with my 10 year old. She loves "attractions", things that have stories within them, etc.. she is not the "thrill seeker" that it appears you have to be to ride most of the rides at IOA. She is deathly afraid of Dinosaur!!! went on it once, never again!!!! I just would never even attempt to get her on Jurassic, Storm Force or any of those.
So......I just don't see the fun in spending the whole day with Dr Seuss, as much as I love Cat in the Hat, it just isn't worth it.
So......I just don't see the fun in spending the whole day with Dr Seuss, as much as I love Cat in the Hat, it just isn't worth it.
gcurling
Poseidon's Fury is a walk through show there's no height restrictions or requirements.
cindyfan
There's a little more in IoA that your daughter might enjoy as Johare has stated in earlier posts. If she can ride Kali at AK then she can ride Popeye and Bluto's Bilge Rat Barges, also if she can handle the Tea Cups at MK then she can handle Storm Force Acceltron, and finally if she can handle Goofy's Barnstorming at MK then she can handle The Flying Unicorn. Over in Lost Continent
there's The 8th Voyage of Sinbad show, The Mystic Fountain Very entertaing for all ages), and Poseidon's Fury, which I mentioned earlier in this post. It does have some special effects which could be intense (depending on the child). Spiderman of course, but I don't know if your daughter is scared of the dinosaurs themselves or the ride motion at Dinosaur at AK, if she's just scared of the Dinosaurs in that ride, then she might like Spidey, however if she is scared of the ride itself at Ak, then Spidey might be too intense for her.
Just wanted to let you know there are a few other possibilities open to your family in the park than Suess Landing.
But ultimately IoA may be a better expierience for your family once your daughter is in her teens.
Poseidon's Fury is a walk through show there's no height restrictions or requirements.
cindyfan
There's a little more in IoA that your daughter might enjoy as Johare has stated in earlier posts. If she can ride Kali at AK then she can ride Popeye and Bluto's Bilge Rat Barges, also if she can handle the Tea Cups at MK then she can handle Storm Force Acceltron, and finally if she can handle Goofy's Barnstorming at MK then she can handle The Flying Unicorn. Over in Lost Continent
there's The 8th Voyage of Sinbad show, The Mystic Fountain Very entertaing for all ages), and Poseidon's Fury, which I mentioned earlier in this post. It does have some special effects which could be intense (depending on the child). Spiderman of course, but I don't know if your daughter is scared of the dinosaurs themselves or the ride motion at Dinosaur at AK, if she's just scared of the Dinosaurs in that ride, then she might like Spidey, however if she is scared of the ride itself at Ak, then Spidey might be too intense for her.
Just wanted to let you know there are a few other possibilities open to your family in the park than Suess Landing.
But ultimately IoA may be a better expierience for your family once your daughter is in her teens.
For all those who think IOA has a lot (or even more to offer) than WDW. My 16 yo daughter actually seems to fit into more like gcurling. She goes on Spiderman and the 3 water rides but that is it except for Suess Land. Also, cannot go on Pterodon as too tall and Tricerotops is A LAME JOKE.
So here is one teenager, granted in the minority, that prefers WDW to USF/IOA.
So here is one teenager, granted in the minority, that prefers WDW to USF/IOA.
DisDuck
Nobody on this thread has said that IoA has more to offer than Disney. IoA, like Disney does have alot to offer people though , it just depends on your likes and dis-likes.
I'll be the first to admit that Triceratops is indeed lame to almost, if not everyone who goes to it.
But at the same time I'll be the first one to also admit Disney has it's own attractions that are long in the tooth and lame as well.
That's great thing about opinions everyone has a right to one
Nobody on this thread has said that IoA has more to offer than Disney. IoA, like Disney does have alot to offer people though , it just depends on your likes and dis-likes.
I'll be the first to admit that Triceratops is indeed lame to almost, if not everyone who goes to it.
But at the same time I'll be the first one to also admit Disney has it's own attractions that are long in the tooth and lame as well.
That's great thing about opinions everyone has a right to one
Probably not, but what does that have to do with the question of whether Universal Escape would exist? Universal Escape would not exist were it not for DL and WDW. True, you can then play the six degrees game and go back to Universal causing Disney to create Mickey, but what does that prove in the context of this conversation? Are you insinuating that then Universal created Disnyland and DisneyWorld, because they swindled Walt? Like the Way the Joker Created Batman by killing his parents?
I'd like to take this moment to be offended on behalf of Walt Disney. Its like saying George Lucas came up with Star Wars, because Francis Ford Coppala Stole his Idea for Apocolypse Now! This isn't chaos theory here. Some people are just genious.
The Idea to create Disneyland was based on numerous things going on in Walts life, among them.
The sad display of humanity apparent whenever he took his girls to the local amusment parks and travelling carnivals.
The Joy he felt when he let family members ride on his backyard model railroad.
The needs of the Disney company to stablize income in between movies (not helped by the flops that some of them were)
Now, it is correct that point three requires there be a Disney company and point 2 requires that Walt be rich enough to build the Carolwood and Pacific, but what about point 1?
Clearly Walt was a visionary. I have ideas about how to improve Disney World all the time, vast, intricate and complex ideas. Now, The reason I have these Ideas about Disney is because Disney exists, but are you suggesting that I wouldn't come up with some of the same notions with alternate stimulus?
Its just a matter of where you want to draw the line historically. In my mind, events that happened before 1955 are not direct enough to effect the conversation. And more importantly, unless you can explain to me how if Universal hadn't Swindled Walt, then they would have come up with UE on there own, you can't draw any valuable conclusions from those facts.
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