Fast Pass return times

[Cyrano]

A reminder that posters who consistently take threads off topic will have them removed.

Whilst this makes a lot more work for the moderators and admin, it is fairer to the OP and other DISers who wish threads to stay open.

Your support in making the boards work better is greatly appreciated

 

[MrRob]

Disney's business model is to make money. If making money pisses people off, that's obviously not going to get in the way.

False. Their end goal, like all companies, is to make money. However Disney's approach has always been to make money by making lifelong customers, and they do that by going above and beyond to make guests happy.

Secondly, nothing about the reinforcement of these Fast Pass times helps Disney's bottom line so it's moot anyway. My point was that they obviously made this decision for a good reason, as needlessly annoying guests only hurts their bottom line.

Whatever caused them to make this decision obviously has been deemed more valuable and important that the possibility of a few lost customers who overreact and cancel trips over this.

This is the thing that bothers me so much about them changing it. There's rumor of next gen, but nothing concrete. Shouldn't a company have a transition plan or an explanation of why a change is being made.

They very likely have both. That doesn't mean they're ready or need to make it public yet. There is a downside to announcing things too early.

and they eliminated it without announcing the progression of how this will improve anything.

The part that bothers me is that this would even need explaining. As long as you understand the core goal of a fast pass you'd know why reinforcing these times will improve things, even if there was no next gen plan in the works.

You cannot control the distribution of something if you have one broad open window.

If they gave me something concrete, I'd be much more understanding. Concrete is not "we did this because something better is coming" - that's too open ended for me to accept.

I have to ask then, would you be understanding if the "concrete" explanation was them releasing a statistics report that showed that wait times were negatively effected by the abuse of the return window? That's the only thing I can really see being concrete, and realistically they would never release anything that implies that something was going wrong at Disney.

Personally I don't even think the next gen system needs to play into this. Fast Passes were born with a specific goal, and the lax rules negate this goal, so they've tightened down on it. That's totally independent of anything they might do in the coming years.

 

[goofyernmost]

To be honest I'm totally baffled as how fast passes can generate pages and pages of debate.

Fast passes are, inherently in their design, a tool used to redistribute guests so that lines for rides are more manageable. For that to work properly you need to specify how the redistribution is spread out.

Statistically, in an ideal world each ticket would have one specific time and they would all be spread out throughout the day, but obviously that doesn't create a very pleasant experience.

So what do you do? You pad it out by making it a time window instead of a specific time and you do it in batches instead of single tickets so that families can ride together. You do NOT however make that padded window "From X o'clock until whenever the park closes". That defeats the entire purpose of a fast pass.

I think the common misconception is the assumption that fast passes were founded on the intention of giving guests a way to skip the line when in fact that's a perk that naturally occurs from the actual purpose, which is to subtly tell people when to ride certain rides and spread everyone out. So working off that misconception, they think the "X o'clock to close" rule makes sense since it fulfills the false foundation or they think they're entitled to it because they assume that's the point of the fast pass.

Of course Disney is known for bending over backwards to try and make a guests experience better, so it's entirely logical to conclude that this "unofficial rule" sprang up from cast members making exceptions and word spreading.

Now they're tightening down on the exceptions, most likely because it was getting to the point where it was negating the point of fast passes. That or like someone else suggested, they need more strict data so that they can properly plan this new X-Pass idea.

In any case there is a legit reason behind it. Disneys whole business model is to treat guests as well as they reasonably can in order to acquire a customer for life, so they really wouldn't clamp down on this rule just to piss off people.

As for judging people who took advantage of the lax rules, or calling people who didn't jealous, that's just silly. Some people do what they can get away with and others don't. Neither is universally right or wrong. It's subjective.

It's also reasonable to be a little bummed if the rules are being locked down now. If you have a nice thing and it goes away, you're going to be bummed. It's natural. However it's unreasonable to be flat out angry or to feel entitled to the lax rules just because they used to exist. The rules are up to Disney to decide and as consumers our "say in it" is simply through giving them money or withholding and not going.

Anyway, just my extended two cents.

Disney's business model is to make money. If making money pisses people off, that's obviously not going to get in the way.

This is the thing that bothers me so much about them changing it. There's rumor of next gen, but nothing concrete. Shouldn't a company have a transition plan or an explanation of why a change is being made (ie. this needs to happen because... or this will improve things because...). They obviously had a segment of loyal customers who liked the idea of the open window, and they eliminated it without announcing the progression of how this will improve anything.

If they gave me something concrete, I'd be much more understanding. Concrete is not "we did this because something better is coming" - that's too open ended for me to accept.

So we're just left to debate what next gen might be while wondering if our trip this year will be as enjoyable as ones in the past.

Bad form

If you go with the attitude that my trip is now going to be ruined, there is a very good chance that this is exactly what will happen. I went and decided to make the best of it and figure out what would work for me and, you know what...I had a great time. Saw and rode what I wanted too and really didn't find what I had to do "extra" was any big hassle. In fact, this was the first time I rode TSM. I never did before because the line was too long and the FP's went to fast. This time I got one, had a conflicting time, walked back over and swapped with someone almost immediately. Only took a couple of minutes. Rode it, wondered what was so great about this thing that created 2 hour lines, and then went about my touring.

 

[CandleontheWater]

I think there will always be % of confused users no matter what system we have but Universal is a proove that even with this %, system works perfectly well. While there are less visitors, there are less rides and proportion probably same.
All I try to say that this theory does not hold the truth in my opinion and Universal is my proove.
Moreover, this theory did not even come from Disney. It came from Phone game, supposably someone had some conversation with someone from Disney at some point in the kitchen with a glass of wine. Therefore, I cannot possibly take it as reliable, reasonable or valid explanation, even so as a theory it is interesting, offensive, but interesting.

You can hold whatever opinion you like, and you can proceed to ignore both anthropological and mathematical theory.

Anyway, you are really getting off topic here by fixating on FOTL access and using it as your litmus test. What I was saying is the fact that there would be a percentage of confused guests is one reason why that it would be prudent to print a end time on Fastpasses, even if they had no plan on enforcing said times. Really it has nothing to do with FOTL. Something that works on a very small scale in a very small park will not necessarily work at others. You are comparing apples and oranges.

If you would like to compare Universals FOTL access to something at WDW, you should be comparing it to the highest tier VIP tours, where the tour guide will get you unlimited FPs. This system works at WDW, because it is priced prohibitively high (something like $375 and hour, for a minimum of six hours).

A small percentage of park guests daily utilize the premium VIP tours, if everyone at the park had access to unlimited FPs it would be madness. Universal's FOTL access works because much like the VIP tours it comes with conditions (have to stay on site) which are prohibitively expensive when compared to other hotels in the vicinity. If everyone at Universal had access to FOTL, it would also be madness and would not be functional.

While both the premium VIP tours and FOTL access has the opportunity to cause confusion, the small numbers of people taking advantage, and the one on one counseling about how best to use them help alleviate this condition. What I mean by one one is the explanation given to the Universal guest when they check in and the Disney guest when they meet their VIP tour guide.

The average guest does not get a FP tutorial, therefore it is really in Disney's best interest to keep all confusion at a minimum, hence printing an end window, even if they had no intention to enforce it.

 

[CandleontheWater]

Interesting theory. Just more added conjecture. It misses the obvious, logical question of why didnt Disney just print the closing time of the park on the FP. Such as 11am - 9pm as the return window. That solves the same false dilemma that you are creating.

Or maybe as others have proposed that when Disney started the FP system, it was easier and more guest friendly to make exceptions and let people use a FP past its window. And now they need to enforce the return window because they are testing and preparing for the NexGen/Xpass.

For me, the latter explanation seems more plausible than the former

I was not a consultant on the FP development, I am only giving my professional opinion.

It is as much conjecture to claim that Disney's intent was to enforce FP times from the get go (despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and to say that late FP use harmed others (which can argued against with mathematical theory).

My intent was not to change minds, but to present a logical explanation for for printing a window that Disney never intended to enforce, using anthropological constructs commonly employed in the business world.

My degree has to be good for something, right?

 

[mesaboy2]

I was not a consultant on the FP development, I am only giving my professional opinion.

It is as much conjecture to claim that Disney's intent was to enforce FP times from the get go (despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and to say that late FP use harmed others (which can argued against with mathematical theory).

My intent was not to change minds, but to present a logical explanation for for printing a window that Disney never intended to enforce, using anthropological constructs commonly employed in the business world.

My degree has to be good for something, right?

I at least am suitably impressed, and appreciate you taking the time to explain.

 

[CuteAsMinnie]

Sorry folks, I love the 'new' FP rules because that is the way we Always used FP. In fact, none of us ever thought to try to use a FP after the expired time. I guess because it has always worked perfectly for us. Or maybe..it's because we're from Chicago and we would never think of breaking the rules

 

[KellyNY]

You can hold whatever opinion you like, and you can proceed to ignore both anthropological and mathematical theory.

Anyway, you are really getting off topic here by fixating on FOTL access and using it as your litmus test. What I was saying is the fact that there would be a percentage of confused guests is one reason why that it would be prudent to print a end time on Fastpasses, even if they had no plan on enforcing said times. Really it has nothing to do with FOTL. Something that works on a very small scale in a very small park will not necessarily work at others. You are comparing apples and oranges.

If you would like to compare Universals FOTL access to something at WDW, you should be comparing it to the highest tier VIP tours, where the tour guide will get you unlimited FPs. This system works at WDW, because it is priced prohibitively high (something like $375 and hour, for a minimum of six hours).

A small percentage of park guests daily utilize the premium VIP tours, if everyone at the park had access to unlimited FPs it would be madness. Universal's FOTL access works because much like the VIP tours it comes with conditions (have to stay on site) which are prohibitively expensive when compared to other hotels in the vicinity. If everyone at Universal had access to FOTL, it would also be madness and would not be functional.

While both the premium VIP tours and FOTL access has the opportunity to cause confusion, the small numbers of people taking advantage, and the one on one counseling about how best to use them help alleviate this condition. What I mean by one one is the explanation given to the Universal guest when they check in and the Disney guest when they meet their VIP tour guide.

The average guest does not get a FP tutorial, therefore it is really in Disney's best interest to keep all confusion at a minimum, hence printing an end window, even if they had no intention to enforce it.

Oh please, math, anthropology theories. Who came out with those theories, members of this board. Any of them work for Disney, any can actually speak for Disney? We all can put a "professional opinion" label on it, will it add credibility somehow? Thank you for detailed explanation of Anthropology but it was off topic and did not give you any credit, your opinion is just your opinion, no less nor more then mine, so lets not present our opinions like some sorts of facts.

I am not fixating on FOTL just showing the proove that people are not as stupid as some may think and park scale has nothing to do with peoples ability to understand written words, this is actually my professional opinion, no, actually it is a fact.

BTW, since you mentioned math, I asked another poster this question and of course got no answer, maybe better luck with you, does time freeze when late FPers go infront of me? As far as I understand it does not therefore I am affected(was affected to be correct), and this is exactly why I like enforcement. Just like you did not like to waste 30 min waiting, I do not want someone waste my time. That simple.

 

[hookedonears]

This was our first trip to the world since they began enforcing fast pass return times.
I am wondering how others feel about it.
Please leave any comments as to why you feel the way you do.

We had quite a few FP's go unused due to one thing or another and woud like to know how others are planning within the 1 hr time period to return. For us, it really wasn't enough time to do much else (family of 4 kids 6 & 8). At least nothing productive.

Late to this party, but sounds like poor or no planning to me. If you plan, you don't take'em if you're not going to use'em. In 15 years of going as a family, we've only had to give FP's away (1) time. Space Mt. was down for an extended period of time and we had to leave to catch a flight. There is absolutely NO excuse for having "QUITE A FEW FP's go unused". I think I've got to call BS on this. First of all, why didn't you give them away?

 

[cm8]

That is just the problem with this. No matter HOW much you plan, how detailed you are..you can NEVER predict when a ride will have a difficulty or your baby has a melt down or (a diaper explosion which can take a CONSIDERABLE amount of time) ect..Adjustments really need to be made in this situation or there is going to be ALOT of upset kids and parents.

What about all the kids and parents who Do and have always made it work What do you propose for them

Late to this party, but sounds like poor or no planning to me. If you plan, you don't take'em if you're not going to use'em. In 15 years of going as a family, we've only had to give FP's away (1) time. Space Mt. was down for an extended period of time and we had to leave to catch a flight. There is absolutely NO excuse for having "QUITE A FEW FP's go unused". I think I've got to call BS on this. First of all, why didn't you give them away?

 

[TLSnell1981]

I was not a consultant on the FP development, I am only giving my professional opinion.

It is as much conjecture to claim that Disney's intent was to enforce FP times from the get go (despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and to say that late FP use harmed others (which can argued against with mathematical theory).

My intent was not to change minds, but to present a logical explanation for for printing a window that Disney never intended to enforce, using anthropological constructs commonly employed in the business world.

My degree has to be good for something, right?

No, you won't change (m)any minds.

Sorry folks, I love the 'new' FP rules because that is the way we Always used FP. In fact, none of us ever thought to try to use a FP after the expired time. I guess because it has always worked perfectly for us. Or maybe..it's because we're from Chicago and we would never think of breaking the rules

But, no one was breaking the rules.

 

[aubriee]

Sorry folks, I love the 'new' FP rules because that is the way we Always used FP. In fact, none of us ever thought to try to use a FP after the expired time. I guess because it has always worked perfectly for us. Or maybe..it's because we're from Chicago and we would never think of breaking the rules

No rule breaking was ever going on. Ride CMs themselves have posted that they were told in training that fast passes are good until park closing on the day they are received. More than once when I've showed up a few minutes early for my fast pass time, I have taken the time to chat with the CMs standing there and have always been told that they were trained to not let anyone in early, but to allow anyone showing up past their fast pass window in. The higher ups may prefer that you show up during your window, but the ride CMs themselves have advised guests that it's fine (and the smart thing to do) to save up fast passes to use later in the day when the stand by line gets long. They even encouraged it.

 

[mjp12831]

If you go with the attitude that my trip is now going to be ruined, there is a very good chance that this is exactly what will happen. I went and decided to make the best of it and figure out what would work for me and, you know what...I had a great time. Saw and rode what I wanted too and really didn't find what I had to do "extra" was any big hassle. In fact, this was the first time I rode TSM. I never did before because the line was too long and the FP's went to fast. This time I got one, had a conflicting time, walked back over and swapped with someone almost immediately. Only took a couple of minutes. Rode it, wondered what was so great about this thing that created 2 hour lines, and then went about my touring.

Never even came close to saying my trip would be ruined. I did say that I think it will be less fun - primarily because I am thinking we will ride less and need to be more cognizant of a time schedule. Big difference.

If I'm wrong I'll come back here and admit that I was wrong and it worked out fine or that from my standpoint things improved.

However, given that we've gone in the busiest time of summer and we ride all day and don't wait in lines longer than 20 to 30 minutes all week, I find it difficult to believe that anything can improve on that.

 

[goofyernmost]

No rule breaking was ever going on. Ride CMs themselves have posted that they were told in training that fast passes are good until park closing on the day they are received. More than once when I've showed up a few minutes early for my fast pass time, I have taken the time to chat with the CMs standing there and have always been told that they were trained to not let anyone in early, but to allow anyone showing up past their fast pass window in. The higher ups may prefer that you show up during your window, but the ride CMs themselves have advised guests that it's fine (and the smart thing to do) to save up fast passes to use later in the day when the stand by line gets long. They even encouraged it.

I agree that no rule breaking was happening, ever! Even the first person that managed to get on long after the window didn't break a rule because, as you remember they have CM's checking in two locations in the FP line. If they got to use the late FP's it is because Disney or a Disney rep. allowed them too. They didn't climb over a fence to do it.

That said, however, I do seem to remember that when Disney first introduced FP the time was indeed enforced. This was a long line of progression to get where it was. First, there were people with legitimate reasons for being late, reservations, ride breakdowns, etc. and after a short period of time Disney decided that researching the reason was a huge time killer and directed the CM's to let them through. It would have also been discovered that even listening to the reason was a time waster and a line delaying venture, so they said...just let them through. That caught on and slowly, over time the public that were aware of it, extended the time little by little until it became anytime after the window opening. By compliant behavior, this became a monster, but everyone seemed happy and there was no reason to change it, they just figured it wasn't worth the hassle.

Now they apparently have a reason. Whether that reason is to get ready for the new system or just because it was starting to cause a problem the we are not aware of, they have decided that they have to go back to the original idea of controlling the flow of rides by controlling the times that people were actually on them. Nothing lasts forever and it is a pain in the posterior to now have to figure out what time to get a FP return time, but it is here and I don't see it changing.

I would be happier if they just threw out the entire Fastpass system and went back to the self governing regular line. Then there would be no reason for mad dashes to the FP machines or 2 hour long lines, because no one would stay in a line that was that long. There would be no reason too. Fastpass created the 2 hour line because if you wanted to see an attraction you had to wait out not only the line directly in front of you, but that damn virtual line as well. First come, first served. Simple, fair and it worked very well, as I recall.

 

[UNCFanatik]

No rule breaking was ever going on. Ride CMs themselves have posted that they were told in training that fast passes are good until park closing on the day they are received. More than once when I've showed up a few minutes early for my fast pass time, I have taken the time to chat with the CMs standing there and have always been told that they were trained to not let anyone in early, but to allow anyone showing up past their fast pass window in. The higher ups may prefer that you show up during your window, but the ride CMs themselves have advised guests that it's fine (and the smart thing to do) to save up fast passes to use later in the day when the stand by line gets long. They even encouraged it.

People keep confusing Rules vs Enforcement. Lack of enforcement doesnt negate or change the rule.

EX: If I break a rule/law and the police or the judge doesnt enforce it, does that mean that the rule/law has changed? EX: In my state it is against the law to shoot fireworks or even purchase them. However, people always cross the state line and buy fireworks and shoot them on July 4th & New Years Eve. Rarely, do the police enforce that law and will tell people as much. Now, the law is still in the books. If you shoot or purchase fireworks in my state you are breaking the law. BUT people do it ALL the time because the law is not enforced strictly. HOWEVER, the police could decide at any time to strictly enforce that law.

another example. My wife is in labor and I am breaking the law in speeding to the hospital. Cop pulls me over and I explain it to him. He lets me go without a ticket and tells me I can speed the rest of the way. The speed limit law/rule was never changed. The enforcement of it did.

Companies will make exceptions to their rules/policies to accommodate guests at times but that doesnt mean the rule/policy was changed. Only the enforcement changed based on the situation.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Simply put, enforcement defines the acceptable practice.

 

[UNCFanatik]

Simply put, enforcement defines the acceptable practice.

Not in all cases because exceptions are made and companies definitely do not want that to become the acceptable practice or advocate that as such.

If I as a parent let my child slide on a rule one time that does not define that as the acceptable behavior I expect of them.

 

[mjp12831]

False. Their end goal, like all companies, is to make money. However Disney's approach has always been to make money by making lifelong customers, and they do that by going above and beyond to make guests happy.

We're not in disagreement - I'm just farther down the road. Your point was that Disney wants to make content return customers. My point is that they want to make money. Generally a good way to make money is to have content return customers.

False. Their end goalSecondly, nothing about the reinforcement of these Fast Pass times helps Disney's bottom line so it's moot anyway. My point was that they obviously made this decision for a good reason, as needlessly annoying guests only hurts their bottom line.

You cannot assume that "they obviously made this decision for a good reason". Big successful companies make mistakes all of the time in product design and in marketing (new coke?). You can say that they believe they made the decision for a good reason - that's different.

False. Their end goalWhatever caused them to make this decision obviously has been deemed more valuable and important that the possibility of a few lost customers who overreact and cancel trips over this.

I agree that it's most likely that they made a change because they feel it adds value, but it's just common sense that when you have a segment of your customer base that is happy with a product, and you're changing that product, that you should explain why the change is necessary or improves the product. This helps the consumer to understand the company perspective and be more accepting of the change. Disney gave us nothing other than rumors of x-pass. Marketing 101 tells you to get out in front of the issue.

False. Their end goalThey very likely have both. That doesn't mean they're ready or need to make it public yet. There is a downside to announcing things too early.

I'm not looking for explicit details of the program, just a company statement that says - "we needed to make this change because...". What we have now is all rumor and speculation. From my experience, when making a major change it never hurts to give a few reasons. We're all speculating this is because of x pass but wouldn't it be nice if Disney told us so.

False. Their end goalThe part that bothers me is that this would even need explaining. As long as you understand the core goal of a fast pass you'd know why reinforcing these times will improve things, even if there was no next gen plan in the works.

As I've said many times, the old system worked quite well and didn't need to be fixed. I do understand the core goal of FP - to get people on rides without waiting. The true goal of it corporately is that when they wait in lines they don't spend money in the park.

We could go July 4th week, ride headliners multiple times, ride all day and NEVER wait in a line more than 30 minutes - that's a pretty exceptional system.

As a happy return consumer of Disney, it seems like a good idea to let me know why they are changing something that I perceived to work extremely well and that was not broke.

You cannot control the distribution of something if you have one broad open window.

Sure you can - distribution is limited by the number of FP available (they set the supply number), and demand for those FP. Supply and demand have nothing to do with return windows.

False. Their end goalI have to ask then, would you be understanding if the "concrete" explanation was them releasing a statistics report that showed that wait times were negatively effected by the abuse of the return window? That's the only thing I can really see being concrete, and realistically they would never release anything that implies that something was going wrong at Disney.

Yes, if they have statistics that show late returns affected wait times, then why not release that?

False. Their end goalPersonally I don't even think the next gen system needs to play into this. Fast Passes were born with a specific goal, and the lax rules negate this goal, so they've tightened down on it. That's totally independent of anything they might do in the coming years.

This is wrong - there are a zillion threads out there that illustrate how late usage has no impact on wait time. I have a post earlier in this thread that does this as well, so I won't waste space detailing it again.

 

[CandleontheWater]

Oh please, math, anthropology theories. Who came out with those theories, members of this board. Any of them work for Disney, any can actually speak for Disney? We all can put a "professional opinion" label on it, will it add credibility somehow? Thank you for detailed explanation of Anthropology but it was off topic and did not give you any credit, your opinion is just your opinion, no less nor more then mine, so lets not present our opinions like some sorts of facts.

I am not fixating on FOTL just showing the proove that people are not as stupid as some may think and park scale has nothing to do with peoples ability to understand written words, this is actually my professional opinion, no, actually it is a fact.

BTW, since you mentioned math, I asked another poster this question and of course got no answer, maybe better luck with you, does time freeze when late FPers go infront of me? As far as I understand it does not therefore I am affected(was affected to be correct), and this is exactly why I like enforcement. Just like you did not like to waste 30 min waiting, I do not want someone waste my time. That simple.

I would explain the mathematical theory behind FP to you, but I'm not going to waste my breath since you seem to willfully disregard any idea that does not originate with you.

Also, because I hate to see my discipline maligned, I would like to point out that theory is not invented by members of this board. Every intellectual discipline is based on a solid foundation of theoretical constructs. It is theory that helps us explain and understand new discoveries and ideas.

 

[mjp12831]

Simply put, enforcement defines the acceptable practice.

This is true

Not in all cases because exceptions are made and companies definitely do not want that to become the acceptable practice or advocate that as such.

If I as a parent let my child slide on a rule one time that does not define that as the acceptable behavior I expect of them.

Agreed that one time exceptions are made all the time in life and that they don't necessarily imply a new definition of acceptable practice.

However, late returns were not one time exceptions - I may have used over 100 late FP in my life and was not once told by the CM who took them that I shouldn't/couldn't. Because they were widely accepted late without exception, it therefore defined what was acceptable.