Fast Pass return times

[Reddog1134]

Following rules in life shouldnt be dependent on whether or not those rules are enforced. I dont think it was too unreasonable or ignorant for guest to even imagine that they could use the FP outside the window nor does that make them uninformed, jealous sheep wandering around clueless in this world

You took advantage of breaking a rule that Disney chose not to enforce but they are choosing to enforce now. I would again assert that if everyone would have broken that rule it would have forced a change earlier.

Not everyone sees this as a disservice to the park goers. It may be a negative change to some. You have already been given cases where the old system did negatively affect other guests but you choose to ignore since you seem to think these kind of things happen in a vacuum with zero effect to other guests.

But there is a big difference between "not enforcing the rule" and "openly encouraging guests to use late FP". (I realize this is a moot point now)

If the basis of your argument is that "the time is printed on the ticket, therefore that is the rule" then consider this: Disney clearly states their park hours on-line, at the parks and in print. However, they allow guests to stay in the park after the posted times. So everyone in the shops, standing in line for an attraction and finishing a snack after the posted time is breaking the rules and in violation of Disney policy. Correct?

 

[KellyNY]

And that was my response. What does not being in the park when the line is short have to do with late FP use?

You mentioned shorter lines when those late FPers did not show and since I and other user used 11AM/6PM example, what you do not understand in my response?

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

But there is a big difference between "not enforcing the rule" and "openly encouraging guests to use late FP". (I realize this is a moot point now)

If the basis of your argument is that "the time is printed on the ticket, therefore that is the rule" then consider this: Disney clearly states their park hours on-line, at the parks and in print. However, they allow guests to stay in the park after the posted times. So everyone in the shops, standing in line for an attraction and finishing a snack after the posted time is breaking the rules and in violation of Disney policy. Correct?

To be fair, that is a dangerous route to take as far as arguments go. The park is technically closed. You cannot get in line for any other rides. You cannot get in to any other shows or restaurants. It is a different situation. Also, as a former cast member who often closed, it is a bit inconsiderate to be one of those guests who insists on staying an hour past closing just because Disney has a policy of not kicking guests out. We have families and lives that we are trying to get home to, as well, and cannot do that as long as you remain in the park. Sorry, I know that wasn't entirely what you meant, but it's my little PSA from my time working there.

 

[Reddog1134]

You mentioned shorter lines when those late FPers did not show and since I and other user used 11AM/6PM example, what you do not understand in my response?

You cannot take advantage of the shorter line at 11am because you arrived at 2pm. But what does arriving at 2pm have to do with FP?

 

[Reddog1134]

To be fair, that is a dangerous route to take as far as arguments go. The park is technically closed. You cannot get in line for any other rides. You cannot get in to any other shows or restaurants. It is a different situation. Also, as a former cast member who often closed, it is a bit inconsiderate to be one of those guests who insists on staying an hour past closing just because Disney has a policy of not kicking guests out. We have families and lives that we are trying to get home to, as well, and cannot do that as long as you remain in the park. Sorry, I know that wasn't entirely what you meant, but it's my little PSA from my time working there.

I agree that people who just sit there on a bench because "Disney doesn't kick them out" are probably being jerks. But I see nothing wrong with stopping by the Emporium to grab a t-shirt on my way out.

 

[KellyNY]

You cannot take advantage of the shorter line at 11am because you arrived at 2pm. But what does arriving at 2pm have to do with FP?

Really? OK, with all the respect, read what I said before, when you originally responded then we will talk. Sorry but your responses do not seem to be connected to conversation at all and make no sense. I am not trying to be rude but I do not see conversation here.

 

[AppleSister1]

Can I ask a question? No judgement, just curious.

Several peeps have mentioned "standing around" waiting for their window. If, in one example, it's 10am and your window opens at 10:30am, yes...that's not a lot of time do something else, especially if it's crowded. But that's just the start of your window, yes? Presumably, if your window starts at 10:30, it closes at 11:30. So technically, you have 90 minutes, and I would think that's plenty of time to do something else.

I realize one of the posters said she needed to get on at the start of her window to accomodate her son's nap, but other than that....I don't see a need to stand around. Am I nuts?

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

I agree that people who just sit there on a bench because "Disney doesn't kick them out" are probably being jerks. But I see nothing wrong with stopping by the Emporium to grab a t-shirt on my way out.

Oh neither do I. I just remember one day when I was working at the studios. A couple stops me over by Streets of America.

Couple: What time does the park close tonight?
Me: We closed at 8:00 this evening.
Couple: Oh. What time is it?
Me: It is 8:45.
Couple: Oh, so what rides are still open?
Me: There are no longer rides currently running unless you were already in line prior to 8:00.
Couple: So we can't go on anything else in the park tonight?
Me: I'm sorry, but no.
Couple: Oh, well what about shows?
Me: The last showing of Fantasmic is currently in progress and they will not let you into the theater once the show has started. All other shows are finished for the night.
Couple: SO we can't see any shows either?
Me: I'm sorry, but no.
Couple: Well what about restaurants?


You get the idea.

 

[mesaboy2]

You took advantage of breaking a rule that Disney chose not to enforce but they are choosing to enforce now. I would again assert that if everyone would have broken that rule it would have forced a change earlier.

What if the authority behind the rule tells you that it's not really the rule? What is the rule now? Does that put the burden on you to follow the old rule explicitly until everyone else knows about the caveat? What then was the point of the authority telling you about the caveat?

And what is that authority? Is it the CM, multiple CMs, Robert A. Iger himself, signage, words on a map or website, backstage policies, or a little rectangular piece of paper we call the FP? It may very well be these different concepts of authority that are at least part of the widespread misunderstandings on all sides.

For instance, here is the evolution of FP rules in mesaland:

1. FastPass says return within window. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
2. Overhear CM somewhere say you can't return early, but you can return late that day. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
3. FastPass says "cannot accept early arrivals", but curiously omits "cannot return late". Hmm, interesting. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
4. Talk to a second CM who confirms the first. RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
5. Test new rule by returning late, CM says "Have a nice day". RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
6. Enjoy increased flexibility and funmeter readings for years.
7. Join DISboards, shout from virtual rooftops the "real" rule as endorsed by mesaboy. Explain that many, many CMs actively or passively told him so.
8. March 7, 2012. Overhear CM say you must return within window. Observe new signage. Observe new wording on FP. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW. (Bummer)

Many people were stuck on #1 or even #2 and couldn't go further. I am not one of them. I ask you to not judge me because of that.

<All questions above solely intended to provoke thought and open-minded discussion, not confrontation>

 

[rentayenta]

Oh neither do I. I just remember one day when I was working at the studios. A couple stops me over by Streets of America.

Couple: What time does the park close tonight?
Me: We closed at 8:00 this evening.
Couple: Oh. What time is it?
Me: It is 8:45.
Couple: Oh, so what rides are still open?
Me: There are no longer rides currently running unless you were already in line prior to 8:00.
Couple: So we can't go on anything else in the park tonight?
Me: I'm sorry, but no.
Couple: Oh, well what about shows?
Me: The last showing of Fantasmic is currently in progress and they will not let you into the theater once the show has started. All other shows are finished for the night.
Couple: SO we can't see any shows either?
Me: I'm sorry, but no.
Couple: Well what about restaurants?


You get the idea.

You have the patience of a saint.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

You have the patience of a saint.

Haha. Well thank you. I don't know about all of that, but it was one of my better exercises in patience. A coworker told me that I should have told them that we have a lovely view of the exit this time of night.

 

[UNCFanatik]

What if the authority behind the rule tells you that it's not really the rule? What is the rule now? Does that put the burden on you to follow the old rule explicitly until everyone else knows about the caveat? What then was the point of the authority telling you about the caveat?

And what is that authority? Is it the CM, multiple CMs, Robert A. Iger himself, signage, words on a map or website, backstage policies, or a little rectangular piece of paper we call the FP? It may very well be these different concepts of authority that are at least part of the widespread misunderstandings on all sides.

What do you think the reason was that Disney put an end time for the FP window? The rule has always been the same. What changed was the enforcement of it. Each individual makes their own decision whether to follow the stated rules. Many people like to test the rules and find loopholes or take advantage of non-enforcement of the rules.

The ultimate authority is Disney. I again ask, if Disney really wanted their guests not to follow the FP window then why did they not remove the end time OR make it WIDELY known to all that the rule as stated on the FP was no longer valid.

For instance, here is the evolution of FP rules in mesaland:

1. FastPass says return within window. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
2. Overhear CM somewhere say you can't return early, but you can return late that day. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
3. FastPass says "cannot accept early arrivals", but curiously omits "cannot return late". Hmm, interesting. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
4. Talk to a second CM who confirms the first. RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
5. Test new rule by returning late, CM says "Have a nice day". RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
6. Enjoy increased flexibility and funmeter readings for years.
7. Join DISboards, shout from virtual rooftops the "real" rule as endorsed by mesaboy. Explain that many, many CMs actively or passively told him so.
8. March 7, 2012. Overhear CM say you must return within window. Observe new signage. Observe new wording on FP. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW. (Bummer)

I can see how this evolved in Mesaland. But again, the rule never changed. The enforcement of it did. For whatever reason , Disney was allowing late FP usage BUT they chose not to change the rule. Why?

Many people were stuck on #1 or even #2 and couldn't go further. I am not one of them. Please do not judge me because of that.

<All questions above solely intended to provoke thought and open-minded discussion, not confrontation>

Point taken. But on the flip side, the people who are "stuck" on #1 or #2 shouldnt be judged either as being uninformed, jealous sheep.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

What if the authority behind the rule tells you that it's not really the rule? What is the rule now? Does that put the burden on you to follow the old rule explicitly until everyone else knows about the caveat? What then was the point of the authority telling you about the caveat?

And what is that authority? Is it the CM, multiple CMs, Robert A. Iger himself, signage, words on a map or website, backstage policies, or a little rectangular piece of paper we call the FP? It may very well be these different concepts of authority that are at least part of the widespread misunderstandings on all sides.

For instance, here is the evolution of FP rules in mesaland:

1. FastPass says return within window. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
2. Overhear CM somewhere say you can't return early, but you can return late that day. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
3. FastPass says "cannot accept early arrivals", but curiously omits "cannot return late". Hmm, interesting. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
4. Talk to a second CM who confirms the first. RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
5. Test new rule by returning late, CM says "Have a nice day". RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
6. Enjoy increased flexibility and funmeter readings for years.
7. Join DISboards, shout from virtual rooftops the "real" rule as endorsed by mesaboy. Explain that many, many CMs actively or passively told him so.
8. March 7, 2012. Overhear CM say you must return within window. Observe new signage. Observe new wording on FP. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW. (Bummer)

Many people were stuck on #1 or even #2 and couldn't go further. I am not one of them. I ask you to not judge me because of that.

<All questions above solely intended to provoke thought and open-minded discussion, not confrontation>

This pretty much mimics my experience with the exception of #2 being "Read online that fastpasses may be used anytime after they mature".

Only once, in many years of using late FP's, did a CM ever make any kind of comment and even when they did they had no problem letting us through.

 

[Reddog1134]

Really? OK, with all the respect, read what I said before, when you originally responded then we will talk. Sorry but your responses do not seem to be connected to conversation at all and make no sense. I am not trying to be rude but I do not see conversation here.

All I was trying to say is that saying "I wasn't there" doesn't seem like a valid argument.

 

[mesaboy2]

What do you think the reason was that Disney put an end time for the FP window? The rule has always been the same. What changed was the enforcement of it. Each individual makes their own decision whether to follow the stated rules. Many people like to test the rules and find loopholes or take advantage of non-enforcement of the rules.

I trust doconeill's explanation as it makes the most sense to me. The one where people given an open-ended timeframe--something like "return anytime after 2:00p"--tend to only see the 2:00p part and forget the rest. I believe his argument is that everyone shows up right at 2:00p. It's a weird behavioral psychology thing. Your opinion is apparently different, and that's okay by me.

The ultimate authority is Disney. I again ask, if Disney really wanted their guests not to follow the FP window then why did they not remove the end time OR make it WIDELY known to all that the rule as stated on the FP was no longer valid.

Define "Disney". I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I tend to think of "Disney" as front-line CMs making our days magical, not a piece of paper with printed "rules". I answered your other question above.

I can see how this evolved in Mesaland. But again, the rule never changed. The enforcement of it did. For whatever reason , Disney was allowing late FP usage BUT they chose not to change the rule. Why?

If the rule for you is only that as defined by the FP, fine--the rule never changed. (Do note however, the full wording in context on the front and back of the old FP.) I attempted to explain the rule as it evolved for me. If you PM me with the request, I could show you another piece of written documentation that CMs saw daily and was a matter of policy, and might modify your understanding. It was not, however, available to guests.

Point taken. But on the flip side, the people who are "stuck" on #1 or #2 shouldnt be judged either as being uninformed, jealous sheep.

I haven't. At least not recently.

I enjoy having an intelligent discussion with you. You remind me of another poster, and they know who they are.

 

[ccgirl]

Can I ask a question? No judgement, just curious.

Several peeps have mentioned "standing around" waiting for their window. If, in one example, it's 10am and your window opens at 10:30am, yes...that's not a lot of time do something else, especially if it's crowded. But that's just the start of your window, yes? Presumably, if your window starts at 10:30, it closes at 11:30. So technically, you have 90 minutes, and I would think that's plenty of time to do something else.

I realize one of the posters said she needed to get on at the start of her window to accomodate her son's nap, but other than that....I don't see a need to stand around. Am I nuts?

Nope...not nuts at all. We have always stayed within the FP window. It's really not difficult if you plan. Besides...we wouldn't stand...it would be a great opportunity for a Mickey Bar.

 

[KellyNY]

All I was trying to say is that saying "I wasn't there" doesn't seem like a valid argument.

Exactly how it is not valid? I suppose not to care about extra time someone made me wait just because someone else, not me, benefitted from shorter line 5hours ago? I suppose not to be upset because my line turned from 20 into 40 min because it stopped on me on Soarin and now I have to rush to my ADR. Seems very logical.

 

[mjp12831]

What do you think the reason was that Disney put an end time for the FP window? The rule has always been the same. What changed was the enforcement of it. Each individual makes their own decision whether to follow the stated rules. Many people like to test the rules and find loopholes or take advantage of non-enforcement of the rules.

The ultimate authority is Disney. I again ask, if Disney really wanted their guests not to follow the FP window then why did they not remove the end time OR make it WIDELY known to all that the rule as stated on the FP was no longer valid.



I can see how this evolved in Mesaland. But again, the rule never changed. The enforcement of it did. For whatever reason , Disney was allowing late FP usage BUT they chose not to change the rule. Why?




Point taken. But on the flip side, the people who are "stuck" on #1 or #2 shouldnt be judged either as being uninformed, jealous sheep.

Semantics.

Rule/Policy... Fact is that WDW openly and admittedly allowed people to use late FP

This open window was not just for a few - it was available to all

If you were one of the ones who werent aware of it, then you were in fact uninformed. I've seen multiple posts in these threads where people are stuck on #1 and #2 ("the uninformed").

Apparently there are also people who moved beyond #2 on Mesaboy's list, but were somehow able to resist the temptation of riding without lines all day long - these people are generally happy that those of us late users who have been having unadulterated fun are finally brought to justice. These are the jealous.

And while I may have called people uninformed and jealous, I never resorted to calling them sheep

 

[KellyNY]

I trust doconeill's explanation as it makes the most sense to me. The one where people given an open-ended timeframe--something like "return anytime after 2:00p"--tend to only see the 2:00p part and forget the rest. I believe his argument is that everyone shows up right at 2:00p. It's a weird behavioral psychology thing. Your opinion is apparently different, and that's okay by me.



Define "Disney". I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I tend to think of "Disney" as front-line CMs making our days magical, not a piece of paper with printed "rules". I answered your other question above.



If the rule for you is only that as defined by the FP, fine--the rule never changed. (Do note however, the full wording in context on the front and back of the old FP.) I attempted to explain the rule as it evolved for me. If you PM me with the request, I could show you another piece of written documentation that CMs saw daily and was a matter of policy, and might modify your understanding. It was not, however, available to guests.



I haven't. At least not recently.

I enjoy having an intelligent discussion with you. You remind me of another poster, and they know who they are.

I wonder why don't we always trust CMs.

Is it because many times they do not know all the answers or maybe because their answers contradict what we know or what is written, or some of them poorly trained, or because we cannot use their unwritten word when we need to proove something? Which one you like?

As much as we all familiar with unwritten rules, when it comes to problem, no word works and you need a piece of paper to proove that you are not an idiot. That happened to one of our friends when she had problem with AP and nobody could help her.

Like it or not but this is how society works, word means nothing and this probably one of the reasons people invented writting.

Why don't you post Operational Reminders, some on this thread not familiar with it like you and me, although I guarantee another 20 pages after that.

 

[goofyernmost]

What if the authority behind the rule tells you that it's not really the rule? What is the rule now? Does that put the burden on you to follow the old rule explicitly until everyone else knows about the caveat? What then was the point of the authority telling you about the caveat?

And what is that authority? Is it the CM, multiple CMs, Robert A. Iger himself, signage, words on a map or website, backstage policies, or a little rectangular piece of paper we call the FP? It may very well be these different concepts of authority that are at least part of the widespread misunderstandings on all sides.

For instance, here is the evolution of FP rules in mesaland:

1. FastPass says return within window. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
2. Overhear CM somewhere say you can't return early, but you can return late that day. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
3. FastPass says "cannot accept early arrivals", but curiously omits "cannot return late". Hmm, interesting. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW.
4. Talk to a second CM who confirms the first. RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
5. Test new rule by returning late, CM says "Have a nice day". RULE: RETURN AFTER BEGINNING OF WINDOW.
6. Enjoy increased flexibility and funmeter readings for years.
7. Join DISboards, shout from virtual rooftops the "real" rule as endorsed by mesaboy. Explain that many, many CMs actively or passively told him so.
8. March 7, 2012. Overhear CM say you must return within window. Observe new signage. Observe new wording on FP. RULE: RETURN WITHIN WINDOW. (Bummer)

Many people were stuck on #1 or even #2 and couldn't go further. I am not one of them. I ask you to not judge me because of that.

<All questions above solely intended to provoke thought and open-minded discussion, not confrontation>

Actually, your little timeline is spot on. That is exactly how it got to where it was. Yes, they allowed to happen. Yes, people were maybe taking advantage of a kink in the rule to be supportive of problems that arise in the course of the visit and Yes, because it was allowed by Disney then No harm, no foul. I cannot speak for others but I have never thought that those that used them after the window were doing anything wrong. Disney allowed it to happen, they could have controlled it but they didn't. One would have to be a fool to not take advantage of it. I know I took advantage of it!

But, now we get to the situation at hand. For whatever reason, Disney decided that they had to enforce the time window. Look at all the rebellion and jockeying and feeble attempts to justify the anger generated over something that was never a "given" to begin with. It was kind of a gift. Did I find it easier to go back whenever I wanted? I sure did. Am I angry now that I can't? Not at all...I have just regrouped, decided that the sky is not falling, I still have access to as many FP's as I ever had...I just have to think it out a little more.

Coming from a place that almost fully requires you to know what you will be in the mood to eat six months from now...this seems like a pretty minor thing. So, at least for myself...I am not judging anyone based on whether or not they used FP's late, my concern is those that can't let go. It required a little thought and planning...not the end of the world.

I sometimes wonder if they kept a record of a email and a two hour phone conversation that I had with a random Disney Cast Member shortly after Fastpass was put in place. I wrote to them about how I felt that Fastpass was an awful idea that would create a sort of caste system and cause anger to come from those that were left out. I wonder if they might pull that record and say...you know...we should have listened to him. Fastpass is a dumb idea. It will take on a life of it's own and be a classic example of two things...one being the tail wagging the dog and no good deed goes unpunished.