Extra Fastpasses: A Case Study

[jade1]

But for those that think that the current system was "in the cards" all along, well, I'd like some of what you are drinking.

If this is from November, then whatever wisblue drinks.

I think what the PP was saying, which is what I have been saying, is that once implemented FPs will be available same-day, or, they wont be all gone due to advance issue.

I think that you will also be able to retrieve more than the 3 advance FPs once inside the park, possibly after you've used some/all of your advance FPs.

This won't be limited to resort guests, or even MBs. Current card tix have RFID intergration. But it will be harder to track non-MB guests, thus harder to offer them relevant notifications inside the park.

I think they also decided to add kiosks for folks without phones-one of the biggest complaints about FP+ on here.

Plus it's the Fast Pass Plus "system" design that allows these changes-pointed out by many when folks said scrap it and go back, or they hated FP+, -and it's still not over as more changes will come.

 

[JimmyV]

I'd like to know what some of you are drinking if you think WDW expected a change of this magnitude to not evolve and that they didn't expect, and allow for, tweaks, enhancements and improvements along the way.

And this is where the discussion reduces to semantics. "Time to roll out those tweaks and enhancements that we anticipated" vs. "Holy smokes. We better do something and fast! We didn't expect this level of dissatisfaction". We will never know what was said or done in the FP+ Team Conference Room.

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

Yes I agree JimmyV.

Either way it's a win for the consumer.

 

[pigletgirl]

This is great. I cannot wait to see what more improvements they make come September!

 

[AndreaA]

So, apparently you were just using FP+ extra passes to solve a problem that was created by FP+. For Pirates and JC to have a 35 minute wait in early May on a Monday is positively extraordinary. And it makes me weep for the future of that park.

I think in the MK, there is enough capacity on a slow day that FP+ can be taken advantage of for lower tier rides. The other parks simply don't have the capacity, period.

-Jason

I was sort of thinking the same thing! Everyone keeps saying ht ecrowd level was super low, but "super low" should not equal a one hour wait for Dumbo! Good grief!

I mean I am happy that I am "in the know" and that the 4th, 5th, 6th FP addition should work well for us (although the additional fiddling on either kiosk or phone is irritating) but I really feel for those who aren't as up-to-date on what's going on and will now be standing in ridiculously long lines during supposedly "low crowd" days.

 

[mom2rtk]

The point made by many (amid the non-stop doom and gloom of many more) was that the system WOULD evolve because it HAD to evolve because WDW could not know in advance the precise details of how it work in real life.

I'd like to know what some of you are drinking if you think WDW expected a change of this magnitude to not evolve and that they didn't expect, and allow for, tweaks, enhancements and improvements along the way.

I believe Disney was hoping to keep that extra capacity to sell or use to incentivize guests to stay onsite. I also believe that in the face of the negative reception their "plus" plan got, they caved and gave that capacity over to salvage the system.

 

[OtherScott]

I am certain that back in March, the CM was forced to play her cards close to her vest, but here is what I gleaned:

They didn't really expect "surplus FPs". As you noted earlier, the current iteration essentially allows for an unlimited supply of "C" attractions. On most days when FPs matter, the "E" attraction FPs will be gone well before people can pull a 5th or 6th or 10th. No surplus.

So they thought FP usage would top 90%? Because at 90% the worst we're reading about E-tickets is that it's hard/impossible to change an already reserved time, depending on party size and coordination. Has there been even one thread post about not being able to prebook TSMM?

What they didn't anticipate was that people would care all that much about having an unlimited supply of FPs for "lesser" attractions. After the feedback started to come back hot and heavy, they promised to look at a way to make more FPs available, but I was cautioned that in the end, the major attractions were still going to be limited in much the way the original roll-out offered them. Tiered with no repeats. They simply underestimated people's emotional attachment to FPs for non-major attractions that would allow people to skip 20 minute SB lines.

Lack of unlimited supply of FPs for secondary rides is the unforeseen problem that needs to be rectified? Surprising.

They didn't anticipate longer lines at other attractions, (such at POTC and HM) and in fact denied that the lines were actually any longer. Their assumption here was that as soon as people became more familiar with FP+, touring patterns would change and things would be back to normal quickly. They are probably right about this, and I didn't challenge this assumption at all.

They didn't think limiting FPs would move people to secondary rides and attractions? Did she have any idea where Disney thought these people who normally pulled 8 FPs would go once they could only pull 3 - on a tiered basis? Did Disney think they would just go buy something?

FP+ was designed to provide more "leisure" time to guests. Of course, their definition of "leisure" is actually "spending" to you and me. No argument there.

I thought FP+ was designed to get prior commitment to attend, then better spread people around the parks and make management more predictable.

But the current iteration of FP+ that we are discussing in this thread brings about the return of the commando. They aren't really in favor of that, did not design the system to work this way, but had to do some studying to see if the negative reaction to the original roll-out was serious enough to bend the mission statement.

Again, how could the offer supply that they didn't even have, or, what sense does it make to eat supply that you do have?

Let's face it. The OP to this thread is not behaving in the park the way the patent application suggests would net profit to WDW.

The OP prebooked and committed to the park weeks in advance - Job 1. The OP stayed in the park all day - Job 2. The OP is a consequence of getting Job 1 out of 90% of guests.

Here is where the CM became coy for obvious reasons. I could tell (and it should be obvious) that using FP+ in a commando manner is not what Disney wanted and not what they designed. But give them credit for listening and reacting.

Are you sure she was just being coy?

As for wisblue's comment about the credibility of the design of the system and the use of kiosks, here is where it got really interesting. Much of our discussion revolved around how the kiosks were a disaster and that the lines for same (and FP+ return lines) were ruining the optics of the park. Beautifuly designed theme parks were starting to look like "sleep-out" lines for Grateful Dead tickets or for a Springsteen show. She was quick to offer up that changes were coming for offsite guests in the way of pre-booking.

Wait. This conversation took place before offsite guests could even prebook? Was prebooking for offsite guests part of the design, or a response to customer complaints/suggestions.

I asked her if that, coupled with app usage, became the norm, wouldn't that make the kiosks obsolete withing months of their roll-out? She conceded that changes that were likely to come could very well result in the kiosks having far less utility. "In the future, you may never have to wait in a kiosk line again. We shall see." Of course, now the kiosks are needed for FP+ 4-10. No idea if this will continue to be the case. This change was far enough down the road that we did not discuss it.

She said you might not have to wait at a kiosk in the future, but had no idea whether or not you would be allowed to use a kiosk.

But if additional FPs become bookable by app, then the kiosks will have very little value. The moral of this story is that the development and implementation of the kiosks are tangible proof that the system took a wide turn away from how it was originally supposed to work.

Unless you want to hold fast to your belief that Disney invested all that time, money and energy developing and installing kiosks all the while knowing that they would become useless in 4 months. I seriously doubt that. The system was designed so that kiosks would be an important element of the functionality. We are one step away (app usage for extra FPs) from the kiosks being obsolete. This in and of itself shows just how far from center the current system is.

The only thing you have to do on the kiosk now is book additional FPs - a feature you maintain wasn't in the original design (when the kiosks were installed). If "3 prebooks only" was the plan from the jump, why the need for kiosks at all?

I'm not complaining. But for those that think that the current system was "in the cards" all along, well, I'd like some of what you are drinking.

CM doing CS to the extreme. Somebody needs a raise.

 

[wisblue]

I The moral of this story is that the development and implementaton of the kiosks are tangible proof that the system took a wide turn away from how it was originally supposed to work. Unless you want to hold fast to your belief that Disney invested all that time, money and energy developing and installing kiosks all the while knowing that they would become useless in 4 months. I seriously doubt that. The system was designed so that kiosks would be an important element of the functionality. We are one step away (app usage for extra FPs) from the kiosks being obsolete. This in and of itself shows just how far from center the current system is. I'm not complaining. But for those that think that the current system was "in the cards" all along, well, I'd like some of what you are drinking.

Your leaps of logic here are astounding.

You are starting with the assumption that every guest who visits WDW is carrying around a smartphone, wants to use it to make and change FP+ reservations, and has installed and knows how to use the app to accomplish those things. I am one of those people that doesn't carry a smartphone around, so I will appreciate the kiosks. As will all of the smartphone users who complain about being tied to their phones all day, spotty wifi service, and the fact that their phone batteries die during the day.

I also remember drawing some disagreements back in January when I said that it was inevitable that offsite guests would be given the opportunity to book FPs in advance as long as they had park tickets, because there was no way that Disney wanted those long lines at the kiosks for guests to get their first FPs of the day. But, even though more guests can now make FP+ reservations in advance, there are still a lot of guests who buy tickets at the parks and/or don't make FP+ reservations in advance. And, the kiosks will still be needed to service them in addition to people who

I guess it's easier for some people to believe that Disney is run by incompetent ****s who don't understand the needs of ALL of their guests (not just the most savvy ones) than it is to believe that they know what they are doing and just have to roll out a massive change in small steps.

I can assure you that I DON'T want any of what you're drinking.

 

[rastuso]

It's just perspective.

Another way of looking at it, it's still possible to ride Pirates with no wait and at the same time have the other benefits of FP+.

It's just perspective.

It's NOT still possible to get a FP for a mountain in the afternoon like it has been for the last 15 years. Pirates has always been the ride you go to as you waited for your FP window to pass.

-Jason

 

[wisblue]

I believe Disney was hoping to keep that extra capacity to sell or use to incentivize guests to stay onsite. I also believe that in the face of the negative reception their "plus" plan got, they caved and gave that capacity over to salvage the system.

Maybe we should hook you up with Jimmy V.

If that was the original plan, why would they put kiosks in the parks to allow guests to make and change FP+ reservations if they knew there wouldn't be anything to give out?

 

[OtherScott]

If this is from November, then whatever wisblue drinks.

I think what the PP was saying, which is what I have been saying, is that once implemented FPs will be available same-day, or, they wont be all gone due to advance issue.

I think that you will also be able to retrieve more than the 3 advance FPs once inside the park, possibly after you've used some/all of your advance FPs.

This won't be limited to resort guests, or even MBs. Current card tix have RFID intergration. But it will be harder to track non-MB guests, thus harder to offer them relevant notifications inside the park.

I wrote that jade. My only surprise to date is that MBs aren't mandatory. It ain't over yet.

 

[OtherScott]

Maybe we should hook you up with Jimmy V.

If that was the original plan, why would they put kiosks in the parks to allow guests to make and change FP+ reservations if they knew there wouldn't be anything to give out?

This has been the underlying problem with this argument all along.

FP capacity is there or it isn't.

If it's there, you use it. If it isn't, you can't.

The newest iteration is "yeah, but it's cheap capacity on secondary rides," which is inconvenient to the "they were going to monetize the surplus capacity" argument.

 

[jade1]

We didn't expect this level of dissatisfaction".

Replace with "popularity".

I also believe that in the face of the negative reception their "plus" plan got,

Replace with "positive" (we want even more).

 

[jade1]

I wrote that jade. My only surprise to date is that MBs aren't mandatory. It ain't over yet.

Tricky-I wouldn't doubt there are similar comments from then though.

 

[jade1]

This has been the underlying problem with this argument all along.

FP capacity is there or it isn't.

If it's there, you use it. If it isn't, you can't.

The newest iteration is "yeah, but it's cheap capacity on secondary rides," which is inconvenient to the "they were going to monetize the surplus capacity" argument.

Yep, as said many times-seasons will make a big difference, as will future expansion.

 

[OtherScott]

I believe Disney was hoping to keep that extra capacity to sell or use to incentivize guests to stay onsite. I also believe that in the face of the negative reception their "plus" plan got, they caved and gave that capacity over to salvage the system.

Given that they incentivize onsite stays with double the amount days of prebooking, EMH, transportation and DDP, why wouldn't they just add additional FPs as another incentive?

I suspect the ROI on offering them to all guests is greater.

 

[OtherScott]

Tricky-I wouldn't doubt there are similar comments from then though.

No, I mean that's actually my quote from 11/11/13 in wisblue's post, not that I was the only one saying it.

 

[jade1]

It's just perspective.

It's NOT still possible to get a FP for a mountain in the afternoon like it has been for the last 15 years. Pirates has always been the ride you go to as you waited for your FP window to pass.

-Jason

It's NOT?

FPs - Thunder 10-11, Splash 11-12, Pirates 12:20-1:20

Headed to space and rode it SB twice, then headed to Buzz and did the same. They were total walk-ons, when we exited Buzz, there were more people arriving and waits were increasing visibly. Headed toward Thunder ...

Hit up Thunder at 10:55, Posted wait was 20 Mins, actually looked a little shorter, BUT, there was a steady stream of FP returns, so even though the line was short, it could have been 20 mins. used our FP+.

After thunder headed right to Splash, used FP+, Posted wait was 15, looked longer, probably 20+.

We returned our Pirates FP+ at 12:25, Posted wait was 20, and that seemed about right (though again, hard to tell with FP returners)


STACKING
At 12:43 we booked Little Mermaid for 12:50 as our 4th FP (Wife's favourite), posted wait was 30. Headed right there, and used it, took a bunch of pictures on the wait, incl mine train.

Immediately headed to the FP kiosk at Philharmagic ... at 1:10, we were able to book another Big Thunder for 1:50. Two important notes.

1) Originally it was giving me times in the evening. All I had to do was click Back, then next again a couple times, and voila ... it gave me 1:50. This is a function I confirmed on Day 3 at the kiosks, by simply clicking back, then next again when selecting the time for your next FPs, it can dramatically affect the times offered.


2) It appears this is where stacking ended. It would not allow me to book an FP BEFORE 1:50, the time that my 4th FP period ended. This is either coincidence, OR, you can stack your 4th FP (book it within the time frame of your 3rd FP usage) but no others from there. I intend to test this vigorously the next few days.


We used our Big Thunder at exactly 1:45, 5 mins early, and then headed right back to the Kiosk, there were still quite a few FPs available, (remember the rain though) ... none before 2:50, we ended up booking our SIXTH FP as Space Mountain for that night, after dinner and before Wishes.

 

[PlutoMars]

I can assure you that I DON'T want any of what you're drinking.

Come on, partake of the Haterade!

 

[jade1]

No, I mean that's actually my quote from 11/11/13 in wisblue's post, not that I was the only one saying it.

Whoa, nice work-what were you drinking?