Extra Fastpasses: A Case Study

[2Tiggies]

Right.

If, as has been argued, Disney did not anticipate having any FPs to be available for same day distribution, what would you do at a kiosk in the park except maybe confirm your times?

The comments pertained to the purpose of the presence of the kiosks. There are going to be FP's left - they may just not be what you want or for the times you want. But there will almost certainly be something left. And yes, you could use them to confirm your times.

I am not quite sure what the excitement is about here. I responded to a comment with another comment.

 

[jade1]

Yes, I hear they often remove posts on Facebook when they become too numerous.

My point is even "positive" feedback can include "even better if" feedback.

Wanting more more more of something is not necessarily negative feedback.

 

[jade1]

I don't know all the details, but he mentions rain as being why all those FP were available.

I hope you aren't trying to justify the advantages of FP+ with a rainy day in a dead season's crowds and FP availability?

-J

I was also including other reports, and even the tiered parks have had the headliners available as a 4th.

As for the season, well that's what we are in so that's the current feedback. Obviously the busier the season the fewer FP+ available-same as with FP-

 

[MVC1225]

On Saturday, we used our FP+ at DHS as follows:

10:25-11:25 TSM
11:30-12:30 GMR
12:45 - 1:45 ToT

We rode ST standby after GMR and before ToT. I then asked one of the mangers (he was observing not helping schedule) at a kiosk if I could book my 4th for AK and was told no. I then asked him if he thought I could eventually add a 4th on the app. He said for another park not now and not for the near future, if ever, since the system is not set up to allow two parks in a day. A 4th one at the same park he thought would likely be possible in the near future but he did not know when. Obviously, take with a grain of salt.

We got to AK at 2:30 and headed for a kiosk and picked the Safari it had (for 4 people) every hour available from 3:25 until the Safari closed. It also showed availability for Everest, Dinosaur, Kali and PW (I don't recall the other rides but I was also not looking to see them) but I do not know the times as we did not pick them. There was no one in the kiosk line. We picked 4:30-5:30 but CM that was there in case I needed assistance told me pick 3:25 -4:25 so then you can schedule a 5th one after you ride at 3:25 so they are informing people you can get a 5th.

Finally, as for the PP that asked how to book different rides for the different members of the party, when you scan the band at the kiosk all names appear with check marks next to their names. If I had wanted to just book the ride for two people I would simply check off the other ones then repeat the process for them. By the way, this was the only "glitch" when getting the 4th FP. When I scanned my band it only showed three members eligible for 4th FP. When I scanned the band for the person that showed as "ineligible" all 4 names were checked so we used her band to schedule the 4th FP. The CM called over a manager who noted the issue on her documents. If it had not been for the glitch, the process would have taken less than 2 minutes which is DEFINITELY less than walking to the Safari to pull a paper FP. Even with the glitch it was less than 5 minutes.

 

[SuperRob]

But, if all of the FPs have been distributed in advance, what difference would it make?

The argument that Disney did not anticipate having any same day FPs available simply does not make sense.

They did. They hold back FP capacity, which is released the day of and ONLY available in the parks.

In short, there are TWO FP pools. Those available for scheduling in advance, and those you can only get day-of, in-park.

 

[wisblue]

They did. They hold back FP capacity, which is released the day of and ONLY available in the parks.

In short, there are TWO FP pools. Those available for scheduling in advance, and those you can only get day-of, in-park.

You have to go back a few pages in the thread to understand what this is about.

A PP said that the existence of kiosks proves that Disney has made dramatic changes from its original plans for FP+ and those changes were made because of unexpected negative reactions from guests.

 

[mom2rtk]

You have to go back a few pages in the thread to understand what this is about.

A PP said that the existence of kiosks proves that Disney has made dramatic changes from its original plans for FP+ and those changes were made because of unexpected negative reactions from guests.

I said that my theory is that Disney had hoped to keep a bunch of excess FP inventory to sell and incentivize guests. You seem to be implying that the mere presence of kiosks indicates they planned on adding more all along. I stand by my theory. I never said they intended to use ALL of the excess inventory to sell. They could have added another pool. It is entirely possible they expected to keep a group of Fps for same day use (those who did not book in advance, and those who wanted to make a change) while keeping a pool to sell.

 

[GeorgiaHoo]

They did. They hold back FP capacity, which is released the day of and ONLY available in the parks.

In short, there are TWO FP pools. Those available for scheduling in advance, and those you can only get day-of, in-park.

That seems reasonable but I'm not sure how MANY they hold back. My experience on two separate days last week in DHS was that Toy Story fast passes were gone early in the day (before noon) on both days. And when we tried to add a 4th FP late one day (say around 530PM - can't recall exact time) none of Toy Story, Rock n Roller Coaster or Tower of Terror were available. So there is some same-day availability but it is limited at DHS (which isn't exactly surprising based on the relatively few rides at DHS). At MK the only FP we couldn't get later in the day was for Wishes. We only rode Maelstrom at Epcot (no interest in Soarin' and didn't want to ride Test Track in the rain) so don't know how it works there.

 

[SuperRob]

You have to go back a few pages in the thread to understand what this is about.

A PP said that the existence of kiosks proves that Disney has made dramatic changes from its original plans for FP+ and those changes were made because of unexpected negative reactions from guests.

I refuse to acknowledge such a ludicrous idea.

The Kiosks aren't just the MDE app on an iPad. They're limited to just the park you're in, and just current availability. It's clear it's a different thing, and as such, had to have been done in advance.

The other reasons why have already been mentioned. Mostly, Disney wants it to be a fair system. It's why they don't charge for it like other parks. Limit it to smartphones, and it's not equitable.

That seems reasonable but I'm not sure how MANY they hold back. My experience on two separate days last week in DHS was that Toy Story fast passes were gone early in the day (before noon) on both days. And when we tried to add a 4th FP late one day (say around 530PM - can't recall exact time) none of Toy Story, Rock n Roller Coaster or Tower of Terror were available. So there is some same-day availability but it is limited at DHS (which isn't exactly surprising based on the relatively few rides at DHS). At MK the only FP we couldn't get later in the day was for Wishes. We only rode Maelstrom at Epcot (no interest in Soarin' and didn't want to ride Test Track in the rain) so don't know how it works there.

Just like before FP+, extremely popular rides that have capacity issues (like TSMM) will be hard to get any time after 10AM. I'm not sure why people have forgotten why everyone was rushing to TSMM first thing in the morning, but it usually wasn't to RIDE, it was to get a FP (or ride, then get a FP if there were any left).

Disney reserves a fraction of ride capacity to FP. A fraction of that is made available to book in the parks. While I have absolutely zero knowledge of the ratio, I suspect there are far more saved for in-park than are made available for pre-booking, simply because they don't want someone showing up completely unplanned and buying tickets at the gate to have an overwhelmingly negative experience.

 

[wisblue]

I said that my theory is that Disney had hoped to keep a bunch of excess FP inventory to sell and incentivize guests. You seem to be implying that the mere presence of kiosks indicates they planned on adding more all along. I stand by my theory. I never said they intended to use ALL of the excess inventory to sell. They could have added another pool. It is entirely possible they expected to keep a group of Fps for same day use (those who did not book in advance, and those who wanted to make a change) while keeping a pool to sell.

Tell that to Jimmy V. He strongly disagrees with you.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Tell that to Jimmy V. He strongly disagrees with you.

And he appears to have been correct. I would have bet the other way and lost.

 

[wisblue]

And he appears to have been correct. I would have bet the other way and lost.

How was he correct? He is saying now that he has PROVEN that Disney never intended to offer extra FPs to guests same day.

We might disagree about whether Disney planned something like this all along or whether it caved in to public pressure and changed its plans. But I don't think either of us can prove anything with the information available to us.

 

[JimmyV]

Wait. This conversation took place before offsite guests could even prebook? Was prebooking for offsite guests part of the design, or a response to customer complaints/suggestions.

Not sure when offsite guests could pre-book. My email was sent long before that was announced, but I knew the result before we even left for our trip. I contaced an "insider" at the Swan/Dolphin before we left to see if I could link our reservation to MDE. He told me that we could not and that off site guests would be able to pre-book in the "near future" but did not know when that would be, and did not know if the S/D would be treated as on site hotels of off. His strong suspicion was that they would be treated like on site, just as with EMHs. Turns out that he was right. But it has been suspected for a long time (before the New Year) that this change was coming.

Tell that to Jimmy V. He strongly disagrees with you.

I wouldn't say that I strongly disagree. I would offer that kiosks are now being used to a far lesser extent than when they were first put in place, will be used to an even lesser extent in 6 months, and will be used to an even lesser extent in three years. This system is forward looking and in due time, the percedntage of people who cannot or will not use the app to do all of their bidding will drop to single digits. That volume could be handled by far fewer kiosks than have been bought and paid for. Perhaps we will see some being sold on ebay along side old monorails.

 

[SuperRob]

How was he correct? He is saying now that he has PROVEN that Disney never intended to offer extra FPs to guests same day.

We might disagree about whether Disney planned something like this all along or whether it caved in to public pressure and changed its plans. But I don't think either of us can prove anything with the information available to us.

He's not. People believe what they want to believe, and he can't prove that without inside knowledge he doesn't have.

FastPass wasn't designed to get you onto rides. It was designed to get you out of lines, and to someplace you could spend money. It stands to reason that if there is ANY FP capacity that is unused, they should be allowing people to get it in-park, because if they're in a line they can't spend. Holding it back simply doesn't make any sense once the day has begun. And since the new system is entirely run by database, they had to have a way to allow that to happen. Thus, the kiosks.

Disney also knows a percentage of guests will not plan at all (or not know to). They don't want these guests to wait in line either, or they'll have a negative experience (for both reasons, that impacts spending). So they needed to have an in-park option for that reason as well.

Really, to suggest that the pioneer in line management didn't realize that they couldn't force every guest to use a web or smartphone app in advance of their trip is ludicrous.

I would offer that kiosks are now being used to a far lesser extent than when they were first put in place, will be used to an even lesser extent in 6 months, and will be used to an even lesser extent in three years. This system is forward looking and in due time, the percedntage of people who cannot or will not use the app to do all of their bidding will drop to single digits. That volume could be handled by far fewer kiosks than have been bought and paid for. Perhaps we will see some being sold on ebay along side old monorails.

I would go the other way and say what I would do is put a kiosk everywhere there used to be a FP machine. That makes it obvious where to go and increases capacity for them. I think what you will see go away is the CM attendants everywhere. They will likely go down to one per bank of kiosks.

 

[JimmyV]

How was he correct? He is saying now that he has PROVEN that Disney never intended to offer extra FPs to guests same day.

Wow. What a tremendous overread. If I was unclear, let me rephrase. The point of my post(s) was that the current iteration of FP+ was not the one anticipated at launch. If Disney knew that FP+ was headed exactly as it currently exists, why did they start the poll asking if people preferred the rolling three, the get more after three, or the get more after 1:00 p.m. options? If they had this master plan in place all along, what was the point of the poll. If nothing else, that should tell you that they knew that changes needed to be made, but they weren't quite sure which way to pivot.

 

[mom2rtk]

Tell that to Jimmy V. He strongly disagrees with you.

One of us must have gotten the talking points from headquarters wrong.

 

[SuperRob]

Wow. What a tremendous overread. If I was unclear, let me rephrase. The point of my post(s) was that the current iteration of FP+ was not the one anticipated at launch. If Disney knew that FP+ was headed exactly as it currently exists, why did they start the poll asking if people preferred the rolling three, the get more after three, or the get more after 1:00 p.m. options? If they had this master plan in place all along, what was the point of the poll. If nothing else, that should tell you that they knew that changes needed to be made, but they weren't quite sure which way to pivot.

Because any smart company gathers data. They likely have the ABILITY to offer any of the three options, but it's always smart to ask what people think, even if you don't end up going that way. And that's not the only kind of data they're gathering.

Do you think it's a surprise that the system rolled out Monday is almost exactly like the way FP used to work (with the exception of booking in advance)? They started testing, and then implemented the system most familiar to guests. Does that preclude making any other changes that are possible with the system? No. Clearly the idea of having three at any given time has been considered, or they wouldn't have polled people about it. The software likely can already do it. But they're being very careful to see how small changes impact flow through the parks, which they can now measure with alarming accuracy.

 

[wisblue]

Wow. What a tremendous overread. If I was unclear, let me rephrase. The point of my post(s) was that the current iteration of FP+ was not the one anticipated at launch. If Disney knew that FP+ was headed exactly as it currently exists, why did they start the poll asking if people preferred the rolling three, the get more after three, or the get more after 1:00 p.m. options? If they had this master plan in place all along, what was the point of the poll. If nothing else, that should tell you that they knew that changes needed to be made, but they weren't quite sure which way to pivot.

I don't think I overread this statement.

"The moral of this story is that the development and implementaton of the kiosks are tangible proof that the system took a wide turn away from how it was originally supposed to work. "

Your entire post was loaded with assumptions and speculation based on a phone conversation with one cast member (and extrapolating from that) and you are using that as "tangible proof" that Disney misjudged the impact of FP+ so badly that they are making major changes from where they intended to go just a couple of months after removing the paper FP machines from the parks

Believe that if you want, but don't expect me to.

I have a daughter who was working as a professional intern at Disney last fall, and she was being told by her managers back then that the limit of 3 and limit of one park were temporary things that were in place while the system was being rolled out and tested. I always take these things with a grain of salt, but that is every bit as plausible as your theories, and I think more believable.

 

[clsteve]

I refuse to acknowledge such a ludicrous idea.

The Kiosks aren't just the MDE app on an iPad. They're limited to just the park you're in, and just current availability. It's clear it's a different thing, and as such, had to have been done in advance.

The other reasons why have already been mentioned. Mostly, Disney wants it to be a fair system. It's why they don't charge for it like other parks. Limit it to smartphones, and it's not equitable.


While I have absolutely zero knowledge of the ratio, I suspect there are far more saved for in-park than are made available for pre-booking, simply because they don't want someone showing up completely unplanned and buying tickets at the gate to have an overwhelmingly negative experience.

The key points are:

There is more than one FP Pool (and it's more than 2 from the info coming in, it seems)

We'll never have a handle on the ratios because they can/will change (daily) based on business criteria we have no insight into

In-Park FP's will be Kiosk-only for the foreseeable future for both technical and business reasons​

Op had a good FP day, which is excellent. Another Op in another thread had a bad day, which is not.

It was a rainy day and a slower day, so I'm not sure what more we can extrapolate from it other than some of the tried and true FP strategies will still work on a slow to average day now that you can get the 4th-plus (at least for the secondaries, and in MK).

Hey, there's nothing wrong with that. I hope more report in with detail so we can get a handle on this and more have good multi-FP days. We're just not going to get that handle until we get further into this and further into some major milestones.

 

[SuperRob]

There is more than one FP Pool (and it's more than 2 from the info coming in, it seems)

I'm fairly certain there is a third "guest recovery" pool. But this isn't something a guest should be able to leverage in any way, so I didn't mention it. If there's more than that I'd be surprised. You can only slice a pie so many times.

Edit: Anyone done a DVC pitch? Are they still offering FPs for that? That would be another pool.

I hope more report in with detail so we can get a handle on this and more have good multi-FP days. We're just not going to get that handle until we get further into this and further into some major milestones.

We're about to head into summer. I'm sure we'll see how well FP+ does with some of the biggest sustained crowds. I think what's important to keep in mind is that all reports here are, by definition, anecdotal. Some will have great experiences, and some will have terrible ones. Hopefully more people have good than bad.