DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

I did some reading and the state of Florida has mentioned the issue of 718.0 and timeshares here: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ute&URL=0700-0799/0721/0721ContentsIndex.html. The state says that there is a difference between condominiums and timeshare condominiums and that they (the state) are allowed to make rules to define them. Statute 721 “vacation and timeshare plans” must comply with statute 718 “the condominium act” unless it has an exemption, then it doesn’t. It looks like an exemption may be granted if the location of the property is outside of Florida. (Hilton Head & Aulani) ? Also, the state says that in the event of a conflict between 721 and 718 then 721 will supersede. It seems intentionally vague to me

 

[Judique]

Also, Disney has way more data on you than you likely realize.

I've always contended that Disney has a file on me. Not necessarily in a bad way, as knowing what keeps your customer happy is probably a good thing.

At the same time, being up there in age, I have a resistance to too much technology, too much tracking.

So I put up a little resistance. If I arrive at BWV a lot too early like 9am and haven't done online check in, I've been known to park my car and disappear into a park. They know I'm there because the gate security used to call them and alert them. Now it's probably some electronic message. More than once I've been approached as I crossed through the lobby to use the BWI restroom, and have to say 'not now, I have to go'. I've traveled as a single so many times, so shouldn't be a too obvious target in a sea of people.

Personally I want my contract to keep what I got when I signed up. Changes in procedures and updates are one thing. Deletions are another thing. And bots and the profit machine could impede my ability to access what my contract says I signed up for. Sort of unfair competition.

I was thinking and reading the update post 1678 and I think the interpretation of walking is a stretch. But could it imply other things such as the use of bots and scraping and pounding?

 

[Spivey378]

DVC should make non-member lead guests attend a sales presentation before the room door is unlocked at check in.

 

[Genie+]

Just in case anyone who wasn't around and is curious....here is the language....


Commercial Use Policy. The Disney Vacation Club (DVC) Public Offering Statement makes it clear that DVC memberships are intended for personal vacation use. The Declaration of Condominium and the Membership Agreement for the Resort expressly limits the use of Ownership Interests to personal use and prohibits use for “commercial purposes,” – a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board of the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or activity.

DVC Members may make as many reservations as they desire. However, if, in any 12-month period, a DVC Member desires to make more than 20 reservations, the DVC Member shall be required to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all of the reservations made by the DVC Member in such 12-month period are for the use of accommodations by the DVC Member, the DVC Member’s family and/or the DVC Member’s friends (collectively, “Personal Use”), and not for commercial purposes. If, in any 12-month period in which a DVC Member attempts to make more than 20 reservations but is unable to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all such reservations are for Personal Use and not for commercial purposes, all reservations in excess of the first 20 reservations shall be presumed to be the use of Vacation Accommodations for commercial purposes in violation of the Declaration and the Membership Agreement (the “Multiple Reservation Rule”).

Enforcement of this policy will be the responsibility of DVC Member Services as follows. For each reservation made by a DVC Member, Member Services shall determine, before confirming the reservation, the number of reservations made by such DVC Member which are occurring or have occurred in any rolling twelve-month period in which the reservation then being made will occur. If, as a result of Member Services’ review of the DVC Member’s reservation history, the reservation the DVC Member is then attempting to make violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the DVC Member has not established, or cannot then establish that all of the DVC Member’s reservations, including the reservation then being made by the DVC Member, are for Personal Use, DVC Member Services will not honor or confirm the reservation and the DVC Member shall be advised that the reservation violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the prohibition on use of Vacation Homes for commercial purposes. For reservations canceled for violating this policy, the cancellation shall be deemed to be a cancellation by the DVC Member and the provisions of the Home Resort Rules and Regulations relating to cancellations (including, without limitation, Sections 5(d), 13 and 14) shall apply.

The Association shall have the sole discretion to interpret this policy. Further, pursuant to the DVC Property Management Agreement and the DVC Membership Agreement for the Resort, the Association delegates the authority to interpret and enforce (through the Home Resort Reservation Component and the Home Resort Rules and Regulations) the policy to DVCMC as property manager for the resort.

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.

The wording at the end…

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either

(i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or

(ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity.

Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.

… makes it much harder to argue that DVC’s use of ‘20 res’ clause set it as the sole standard to define crossing the line out of personal use.

 

[mkatsy]

The wording at the end…

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either

(i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or

(ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity.

Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.

… makes it much harder to argue that DVC’s use of ‘20 res’ clause set it as the sole standard to define crossing the line out of personal use.

Uh oh … promulgate … “we can proclaim” … we don’t need you to vote

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

 

[Genie+]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Basically our contracts are First Come First Serve at 11 Months. Walking circumvents that grabbing dates weeks or months before that 11 months, then ‘rolling’ forward until their intended booking date arrives.

Walking allows someone to claim a stake on inventory well before 11 months, because the system will allow them to just keep updating as infrequently as 7 days, and that entire time that reservation cannot be taken out from under them by someone coming into the system later. They can keep sitting on and rolling the upcoming inventory.

 

[geargrinder]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Walking is taking the room while it's available with a target stay that is beyond the reservation period. Then on subsequent days release the unwanted days that are now within the reservation window and adding days that are still outside the reservation window.

It's basically blocking out the target dates and chopping up the released dates for availability.

It's not a direct result of commercial renting, but commercial renting does play a factor in peoples need to walk.



.

 

[mkatsy]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Because you can book your entire week (I think it’s a week?) which allows you to dip into the dates that are unopened to the rest of the members. It’s like “early entry” in a theme park, you are reaching ahead, but the software is holding the rest of us back.

 

[Sandisw]

Can you point me in the direction of where this is written? Here's the amendment language copied from the multi-site POS:

7.5 Amendment. BVTC, in its discretion, may change the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document and the rules and regulations set forth in this Disclosure Document. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange, or rent the Club Member's Ownership Interest and may impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Such changes may be made by BVTC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, such changes, under some circumstances, may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could impact their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Club publications or a Club website. Current publications supersede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document.

and this:

1. Amendments. DVC Operator reserves the right to amend these Rules and Regulations, in its discretion. These changes may affect a Club Member’s right to use, exchange, or rent the Club Member’s Ownership Interest and may impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of the Club Member’s Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Member Services publications, including posting on a Club website. Current publications supersede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of these Rules and Regulations.

Is there another document that I am missing?

Includes opinions....

The Master Declaration for each resort and that material changes have to be voted on.

Right now, the only restriction we have for renting is that the board, in its reaonsable discretions (Pre-RIV) constitutes that you are using for a commerical purpose ......for no matter the rules, the restriction is commerical purpose.

The can define that...but it still has to be related to using your membership for commercial purposes and not something else.

For example, adding a rule that says "you can not have any reservations in the month of July in the name of any renter" would be very hard, IMO, for them to explain how that consitutes a commerical purpose over any other month....

It could be considered a new restrction that has nothing to do with the intent of origiinal restrctions...you have bought DVC for reasons other than your vacations....

In terms of above, yes, they have the right to amend the rules of trading into BVTC, and rules for using your ownership vis the HRR. And, as owners, we agreed already to allowing amendments of those rules...

But, the POS, defines what must be included in the HRR.... Transfsers is a good example...the POS document says you can transfer points.....that would be considered material part of the contract.....so DVD can't totally prevent it....however, we gave them the right to set the rules around it....and that they can amended the actual HRR....which is what they did in December.

If you look at the 2008 document...that was their policy for enforcing commerical purpose clause.....and yes, they can create a new amendement that defines it differently, but they still have to meet the standard that the rental rules ban using memberships for commerical purposes...and not renting in general.....

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Basically our contracts are First Come First Serve at 11 Months. Walking circumvents that grabbing dates weeks or months before that 11 months, then ‘rolling’ forward until their intended booking date arrives.

Walking allows someone to claim a stake on inventory well before 11 months, because the system will allow them to just keep updating as infrequently as 7 days, and that entire time that reservation cannot be taken out from under them by someone coming into the system later. They can keep sitting on and rolling the upcoming inventory.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

Plus, the only people I am trying to get ahead of by walking are those that share my UY, no? Others with different UYs have a different 11 month window and may very well not have any restrictions on the dates I want.

 

[Brian Noble]

Could it be that Wyndham and Marriott is a HOA and therefore they can apply the more strict rental policy?

I don't think there has to be anything different, because I think Disney has an argument that they are not violating the statute.

Here is the argument: Disney is neither forbidding rentals, nor is it "specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period". [Emphasis added.] We are allowed to rent, so they are not forbidden. There is no maximum specified number of times we may rent, so Disney does not violate that clause. There is no specified period of time during which rentals are limited, so Disney does not violate that clause.

The vague nature of DVC's statements so far is helpful Disney here. There is no specific number or period. Instead, the limit is defined by a pattern, and the statute does not appear to forbid that on its face. Even the old 20/year threshold doesn't rise to this, becase that was a specified limit on the number of reservations, not a limit on the number of rentals.

Let's take it even further, and assume that Disney is in direct violation of this statute. This is not a criminal statute, as far as I can tell, but a civil one. In other words, the primary mechanism of enforcement is by virtue of a suit brought by one or more Members. If Disney decides to go to the mattresses, this will be extraordinarily expensive, and it will also be uncertain.

 

[mkatsy]

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

 

[Genie+]

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

The system allows a member to book a date 11 months out, plus 6 more consecutive days. That is the mechanism that reaches past any new comer looking to get in at 11 months. If today I have a July 6-13 2026 booking, a different member coming in for a booking starting July 8th cannot access the inventory I hold.

And say I hold that July booking but actually plan to visit the first week of Sept 2026, as long as I keep rolling it before the actual 11 months date begins, nobody new can take that inventory out from under me. I just set my schedule to keep changing the dates forward before that 11 months date begins. The only thing that can mess me up is a rare system glitch, or my own contract UY and point limitations. If walking a low point season booking, the member needs enough points available to walk through the heavier point weeks.

 

[Sandisw]

The wording at the end…

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either

(i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or

(ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity.

Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.

… makes it much harder to argue that DVC’s use of ‘20 res’ clause set it as the sole standard to define crossing the line out of personal use.

I said early, I have no clue if someone could even use it or be successful…but rather that it was in place when some owners bought.

 

[Genie+]

I said early, I have no clue if someone could even use it or be successful…but rather that it was in place when some owners bought.

Yes, I don’t remember seeing any of your posts take that stance. It was others. Just used your helpful post of the actual words to make the point.

 

[Sandisw]

I've always contended that Disney has a file on me. Not necessarily in a bad way, as knowing what keeps your customer happy is probably a good thing.

At the same time, being up there in age, I have a resistance to too much technology, too much tracking.

So I put up a little resistance. If I arrive at BWV a lot too early like 9am and haven't done online check in, I've been known to park my car and disappear into a park. They know I'm there because the gate security used to call them and alert them. Now it's probably some electronic message. More than once I've been approached as I crossed through the lobby to use the BWI restroom, and have to say 'not now, I have to go'. I've traveled as a single so many times, so shouldn't be a too obvious target in a sea of people.

Personally I want my contract to keep what I got when I signed up. Changes in procedures and updates are one thing. Deletions are another thing. And bots and the profit machine could impede my ability to access what my contract says I signed up for. Sort of unfair competition.

I was thinking and reading the update post 1678 and I think the interpretation of walking is a stretch. But could it imply other things such as the use of bots and scraping and pounding?

I got excited and since it’s not new, it wasn’t done for walking.

I don’t want to delete it because it sparked conversation but did add it’s not new.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

Ahh! The UY doesn't impact the 11 month window, as it is 11 months from todays date. I get it now. I don't know why but I thought the UY influenced the 11 month window. That was my mistake.

Disney surely can see reservations that are sliding day to day, I'd imagine it would be a very easy thing for them to stop.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, I don’t remember seeing any of your posts take that stance. It was others. Just used your helpful post of the actual words to make the point.

I posted more for context for those who have never seen it so they have the actual policy.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

The reservation would have to be moved ----daily to guarantee scheme, no? Skip a day and the skipped day could be "sold out" so sliding won't be possible anymore. Or am I misinterpreting how it works? Surely Disney isn't cool with this? Walking a few days might go under the radar but for weeks or months? No way they don't step in.