DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[Genie+]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Basically our contracts are First Come First Serve at 11 Months. Walking circumvents that grabbing dates weeks or months before that 11 months, then ‘rolling’ forward until their intended booking date arrives.

Walking allows someone to claim a stake on inventory well before 11 months, because the system will allow them to just keep updating as infrequently as 7 days, and that entire time that reservation cannot be taken out from under them by someone coming into the system later. They can keep sitting on and rolling the upcoming inventory.

 

[geargrinder]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Walking is taking the room while it's available with a target stay that is beyond the reservation period. Then on subsequent days release the unwanted days that are now within the reservation window and adding days that are still outside the reservation window.

It's basically blocking out the target dates and chopping up the released dates for availability.

It's not a direct result of commercial renting, but commercial renting does play a factor in peoples need to walk.



.

 

[mkatsy]

I've been reading this thread, a lot of things came up I've not been familiar with. One such term used is "walking". I had to google it to find out what it is. The google description explains it but not in a way I think I'd find beneficial. It describes it as ""Walking" a reservation is a technique used by some Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members to secure hard-to-get reservations. It involves booking a room earlier than the planned travel date and then slowly moving the reservation back until it covers the member's travel dates"

The part I question is if the room becomes available to walk to, then why not just book it hen instead of the booking which is being walked? How does this benefit the member? The room type and date had to come available, this would have happened without the placeholder (walked) reservation so what benefit does it serve?

Because you can book your entire week (I think it’s a week?) which allows you to dip into the dates that are unopened to the rest of the members. It’s like “early entry” in a theme park, you are reaching ahead, but the software is holding the rest of us back.

 

[Sandisw]

Can you point me in the direction of where this is written? Here's the amendment language copied from the multi-site POS:

7.5 Amendment. BVTC, in its discretion, may change the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document and the rules and regulations set forth in this Disclosure Document. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange, or rent the Club Member's Ownership Interest and may impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Such changes may be made by BVTC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, such changes, under some circumstances, may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could impact their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Club publications or a Club website. Current publications supersede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document.

and this:

1. Amendments. DVC Operator reserves the right to amend these Rules and Regulations, in its discretion. These changes may affect a Club Member’s right to use, exchange, or rent the Club Member’s Ownership Interest and may impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of the Club Member’s Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Member Services publications, including posting on a Club website. Current publications supersede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of these Rules and Regulations.

Is there another document that I am missing?

Includes opinions....

The Master Declaration for each resort and that material changes have to be voted on.

Right now, the only restriction we have for renting is that the board, in its reaonsable discretions (Pre-RIV) constitutes that you are using for a commerical purpose ......for no matter the rules, the restriction is commerical purpose.

The can define that...but it still has to be related to using your membership for commercial purposes and not something else.

For example, adding a rule that says "you can not have any reservations in the month of July in the name of any renter" would be very hard, IMO, for them to explain how that consitutes a commerical purpose over any other month....

It could be considered a new restrction that has nothing to do with the intent of origiinal restrctions...you have bought DVC for reasons other than your vacations....

In terms of above, yes, they have the right to amend the rules of trading into BVTC, and rules for using your ownership vis the HRR. And, as owners, we agreed already to allowing amendments of those rules...

But, the POS, defines what must be included in the HRR.... Transfsers is a good example...the POS document says you can transfer points.....that would be considered material part of the contract.....so DVD can't totally prevent it....however, we gave them the right to set the rules around it....and that they can amended the actual HRR....which is what they did in December.

If you look at the 2008 document...that was their policy for enforcing commerical purpose clause.....and yes, they can create a new amendement that defines it differently, but they still have to meet the standard that the rental rules ban using memberships for commerical purposes...and not renting in general.....

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Basically our contracts are First Come First Serve at 11 Months. Walking circumvents that grabbing dates weeks or months before that 11 months, then ‘rolling’ forward until their intended booking date arrives.

Walking allows someone to claim a stake on inventory well before 11 months, because the system will allow them to just keep updating as infrequently as 7 days, and that entire time that reservation cannot be taken out from under them by someone coming into the system later. They can keep sitting on and rolling the upcoming inventory.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

Plus, the only people I am trying to get ahead of by walking are those that share my UY, no? Others with different UYs have a different 11 month window and may very well not have any restrictions on the dates I want.

 

[Brian Noble]

Could it be that Wyndham and Marriott is a HOA and therefore they can apply the more strict rental policy?

I don't think there has to be anything different, because I think Disney has an argument that they are not violating the statute.

Here is the argument: Disney is neither forbidding rentals, nor is it "specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period". [Emphasis added.] We are allowed to rent, so they are not forbidden. There is no maximum specified number of times we may rent, so Disney does not violate that clause. There is no specified period of time during which rentals are limited, so Disney does not violate that clause.

The vague nature of DVC's statements so far is helpful Disney here. There is no specific number or period. Instead, the limit is defined by a pattern, and the statute does not appear to forbid that on its face. Even the old 20/year threshold doesn't rise to this, becase that was a specified limit on the number of reservations, not a limit on the number of rentals.

Let's take it even further, and assume that Disney is in direct violation of this statute. This is not a criminal statute, as far as I can tell, but a civil one. In other words, the primary mechanism of enforcement is by virtue of a suit brought by one or more Members. If Disney decides to go to the mattresses, this will be extraordinarily expensive, and it will also be uncertain.

 

[mkatsy]

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

 

[Genie+]

It just doesn't make sense to me. Right now, I can book out at our home resorts until May 15th, assuming I start on the 8th for one week. I could of course start earlier and book a longer trip but it must end by the 15th. If I wanted the 16th as well, I could book the trip until the 15th and add the 16th if its available the next day but if it isn't, I'd have to cancel or open a waitlist or plan without it.

If I wasn't really after the 8th through the 15th, to "walk" this reservation to my true dates, say June 5th through the 12th, How would this be possible if a date I try walking into isn't available? Like the 16th I mentioned earlier. What happens if I walk right up to June 4th but the 5th never opens up?

It seems like a lot of effort when I can just wait until June 5th and book the week if its not blocked out. If walking somehow allowed me to keep a room type that was showing as unavailable, I could see why people do it but that isn't the case. I dunno, no matter how I try to understand this, it just doesn't seem to serve any benefit.

The system allows a member to book a date 11 months out, plus 6 more consecutive days. That is the mechanism that reaches past any new comer looking to get in at 11 months. If today I have a July 6-13 2026 booking, a different member coming in for a booking starting July 8th cannot access the inventory I hold.

And say I hold that July booking but actually plan to visit the first week of Sept 2026, as long as I keep rolling it before the actual 11 months date begins, nobody new can take that inventory out from under me. I just set my schedule to keep changing the dates forward before that 11 months date begins. The only thing that can mess me up is a rare system glitch, or my own contract UY and point limitations. If walking a low point season booking, the member needs enough points available to walk through the heavier point weeks.

 

[Sandisw]

The wording at the end…

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either

(i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or

(ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity.

Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.

… makes it much harder to argue that DVC’s use of ‘20 res’ clause set it as the sole standard to define crossing the line out of personal use.

I said early, I have no clue if someone could even use it or be successful…but rather that it was in place when some owners bought.

 

[Genie+]

I said early, I have no clue if someone could even use it or be successful…but rather that it was in place when some owners bought.

Yes, I don’t remember seeing any of your posts take that stance. It was others. Just used your helpful post of the actual words to make the point.

 

[Sandisw]

I've always contended that Disney has a file on me. Not necessarily in a bad way, as knowing what keeps your customer happy is probably a good thing.

At the same time, being up there in age, I have a resistance to too much technology, too much tracking.

So I put up a little resistance. If I arrive at BWV a lot too early like 9am and haven't done online check in, I've been known to park my car and disappear into a park. They know I'm there because the gate security used to call them and alert them. Now it's probably some electronic message. More than once I've been approached as I crossed through the lobby to use the BWI restroom, and have to say 'not now, I have to go'. I've traveled as a single so many times, so shouldn't be a too obvious target in a sea of people.

Personally I want my contract to keep what I got when I signed up. Changes in procedures and updates are one thing. Deletions are another thing. And bots and the profit machine could impede my ability to access what my contract says I signed up for. Sort of unfair competition.

I was thinking and reading the update post 1678 and I think the interpretation of walking is a stretch. But could it imply other things such as the use of bots and scraping and pounding?

I got excited and since it’s not new, it wasn’t done for walking.

I don’t want to delete it because it sparked conversation but did add it’s not new.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

Ahh! The UY doesn't impact the 11 month window, as it is 11 months from todays date. I get it now. I don't know why but I thought the UY influenced the 11 month window. That was my mistake.

Disney surely can see reservations that are sliding day to day, I'd imagine it would be a very easy thing for them to stop.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, I don’t remember seeing any of your posts take that stance. It was others. Just used your helpful post of the actual words to make the point.

I posted more for context for those who have never seen it so they have the actual policy.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Imagine your seven nights of vacation are a row of boxes. Now imagine pushing that row of boxes through a calendar. As long as box #1 is butted up against the open/closed date line the other six boxes extend into virgin territory. NOBODY can physically be in front of you. Now move that train at periodic intervals until you hit a premium date. It’s yours. I don’t know the frequency that you have to move it, I’m too point poor for this scheme.

The reservation would have to be moved ----daily to guarantee scheme, no? Skip a day and the skipped day could be "sold out" so sliding won't be possible anymore. Or am I misinterpreting how it works? Surely Disney isn't cool with this? Walking a few days might go under the radar but for weeks or months? No way they don't step in.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Ahh! The UY doesn't impact the 11 month window, as it is 11 months from todays date. I get it now. I don't know why but I thought the UY influenced the 11 month window. That was my mistake.

Disney surely can see reservations that are sliding day to day, I'd imagine it would be a very easy thing for them to stop.

Every action they take to restrict the system will have unintended consequences.

 

[mkatsy]

I don't think there has to be anything different, because I think Disney has an argument that they are not violating the statute.

Here is the argument: Disney is neither forbidding rentals, nor is it "specifying or limiting the number of times unit owners are entitled to rent their units during a specified period". [Emphasis added.] We are allowed to rent, so they are not forbidden. There is no maximum specified number of times we may rent, so Disney does not violate that clause. There is no specified period of time during which rentals are limited, so Disney does not violate that clause.

The vague nature of DVC's statements so far is helpful Disney here. There is no specific number or period. Instead, the limit is defined by a pattern, and the statute does not appear to forbid that on its face. Even the old 20/year threshold doesn't rise to this, becase that was a specified limit on the number of reservations, not a limit on the number of rentals.

Let's take it even further, and assume that Disney is in direct violation of this statute. This is not a criminal statute, as far as I can tell, but a civil one. In other words, the primary mechanism of enforcement is by virtue of a suit brought by one or more Members. If Disney decides to go to the mattresses, this will be extraordinarily expensive, and it will also be uncertain.

If it did come to a lawsuit how would members with deeds in California, Hawaii, and South Carolina have standing? The Florida 718 statute only protects Florida property.

 

[Tatebeck]

The reservation would have to be moved ----daily to guarantee scheme, no? Skip a day and the skipped day could be "sold out" so sliding won't be possible anymore. Or am I misinterpreting how it works? Surely Disney isn't cool with this? Walking a few days might go under the radar but for weeks or months? No way they don't step in.

You only need to have one day still in the 11 month window and you can book up to 7 nights. So you can book 7 nights and wait 6 days, then move that 7 night reservation before the 7th morning when that last day opens up for normal booking to keep that exact room reserved for you

A lot of people have been doing it for a long time, especially for hard to book rooms or popular times and DVC hasn't done anything because they felt it hasn't become a big enough problem. Until maybe now

 

[Genie+]

Ahh! The UY doesn't impact the 11 month window, as it is 11 months from todays date. I get it now. I don't know why but I thought the UY influenced the 11 month window. That was my mistake.

Disney surely can see reservations that are sliding day to day, I'd imagine it would be a very easy thing for them to stop.

Just like this board is dissecting rentals, many others have delved as deeply into walking.

Both topics are a bit tricky. Unintended consequences are always a risk, so answering one thing might end up opening a different can of worms. Plus there is concern that changes might reduce the flexibility/value for us members.

In the earlier days of DVC, reservations were made 11 months from checkout date, not check-in. People who were taking longer trips were at a disadvantage. Say I had a 7 day trip, then anybody having a shorter trip on same arrival day got a crack at the inventory before me. International guests especially despised this old system as they typically booked longer trips.

The reservation system was changed to what we have today, and created the ability to ‘walk’ as we see it today. It’s a much greater advantage than any possible ‘hacks’ the old system held. But many members prefer the current system, and are cautious that another change could upset things in unintended ways.

Thread 'I finally get why people walk reservations. Disappointed.'

Dec 23, 2023

Just booked my first big DVC trip. Not my first trip overall, but the first big one.

I was trying to get a deluxe studio, standard view, at VGF.

11 months out, check
Home resort, check
Click "check availability at 8am EST on the nose, check
No deluxe studios available!!

Granted, I was going for the most popular room type at a busy time of year, but was still shocked at the lack of availability.

I had always assumed that this was more of an issue at 7 months than at 11.

I have definitely been educated today on the DVC product!

Knowing this before buying probably wouldn't have made me...

• tx911
• Replies: 255
• Forum: Purchasing DVC

^This is one of many lengthy discussions around walking over the years

 

[muppets3d]

Yeah as we have discussed, the changing preferences of DVC members and/or those who rent from DVC members means studios are in higher demand than ever...it's probably best to book what you can get and then waitlist what you want. If they are walking, hopefully your waitlist will match sooner than later.

 

[Genie+]

I hope DVC does act regarding walking. FCFS is supposed to be happening at 11 months. Members shouldn’t be shut out by the amount of activity happening 13 or 15 months out. That is not how the system was intended to work. I didn’t sign up to a vacation club that requires planning a trip 5 seasons prior to get your ‘equal’ shot.