DVC Point Charts for 2011 - Post chart release discussion begins on Pg 14

[TSMIII]

As to AKV I sent emails to MS with some questions and thus far have the following responses:

1. In relation to where the the decrease was in weeks to offset the increases -- which for 2BRs (other than value) and concierge is an increase every week of the year and for 1BRs almost every week of the year, and for studios more than 60% of the weeks of the year, I got the following stock response which shows that in fact this year's change was part of a two year plan to lower weekends and raise weekdays, i.e., they knew they were going to do this when they made last year's change but needed two years to avoid the 20% max per year rule:

"We appreciate your feedback regarding the adjustments made to the Vacation Points Charts for 2011. As our Membership has grown, an increasing number of Members have expressed that they would like weekend nights to be more affordable. The changes to the 2011 Vacation Point Charts reflect another step in the effort begun in 2010 to balance the demand throughout the year and the changes in vacationing patterns of our Members making accommodations for all weekends more affordable. In most instances, Sunday through Thursday night Vacation Point requirements are higher. However, this is offset by a reduction in the requirements for Friday and Saturday night stays. While the total numberof Vacation Points for any particular Disney Vacation Club Resort will never change, some Vacation Points totals per week have changed slightly up or down."

2. I also asked about the new category "standard" GVs, since all GVs have savanna view, and asked where and how many there are, and got the following resonse:

"Standard Grand Villas were created for 2011 at Disney's Animal Kingdom Villas in the Kidani Village area only."

I have followed up with a question asking for more specifics on those GVs including how many and where in the resort they are but don't have a response yet.

Since they told you the standard view GV(s) are in Kidani, and not Jambo as some of us had first speculated, it would not surprise me if they were in an as yet undeclared section of Kidani as I don't see how you could categorize the currently declared GVs as anything but savanna view.


If they were always intended to be standard view, it makes sense that they would not add that category to the point charts until they were reasonably certain that they would be available in that year. Right now, based on what is available for diagrams and photos of Kidani, my guess is there will be two GVs that are standard view and will be located on the back (North) side of Phases 91 & 92 where the Pembe Savanna is very minimal to non-existent between the GVs and the woodline.

Here is the northern part of Kidani from Mapquest - note the gray peaked roofs on the various sections that indicate where the GVs are:

Kidani satellite view

 

[tidefan]

I think I would like OKW, but not as much as my beloved boardwalk.

Gotcha there, and I understand how many love their home resorts. I'm just sayin' you've got other options before offsite or the values...

RTR!

 

[photobob]

Aren't there other options though? Like booking a couple of nights at a value, or an offsite location, or trying out Universal hotels?

I think most of us bought DVC so we wouldn't have to do that!

 

[BroganMc]

The changes didn't affect me much on my BCV and VWL contracts, but I really took at hit on my 60 points at BLT. I bought enough to stay 3 weeknights nights in a MK view Adventure Season or 3 nights in a LV in May, with a small (9 point) cushion. My cushion just dropped to 3 points Since 3 nights in an MK resort is long enough, it's okay, but another reallocation in the same direction will definitely change my on-site stays. Although I hate the idea of staying offsite, I'm really happy that I bought Bonnet Creek to supplement Disney!

I'm in the same boat with my 60 pt BLT contract. I had purchased thinking to use it in Choice for 3-4 days LV. But then I bought BW resale and found I like being there better that time.

So now I'm using it in May and thinking about shifting to early December next year. We can always downgrade to Standard View.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

DVC can not legally consider the financial impact, good or bad, on WDW for a re-allocation.

I wasn't aware of such legal restrictions. Do you know the law or regulation that requires this?

 

[Tiger926]

I think most of us bought DVC so we wouldn't have to do that!

Exactly! We refuse to pay for any cash nights, or off-site nights at Sea World. It just doesn't make financial sense, when we've spent $40,000 on DVC, plus our dues each year (which are now up to $1700.00).

We are at 360 points, and there will be no more add-ons for us. We have stayed at every Disney resort (except GF) and all DVC resorts (except HHI & VB), and so we just play around with our points based on the limited times we can travel, as I'm a teacher, and we plan our vacations based on these variables. We will stay at any DVC resort, although we do have our favs, before we pay cash!

Good luck to all who are now short a few points - we still haven't figured out our actual 2011 vacation costs yet, as I'm busy planning a surprise Flower & Garden Festival trip that my hubby surprised me with this week!

Tiger

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I feel sorry for new owners. You sit and look at the point charts and figure when and where you want stay. You calculate how many points suits your family, and then make your purchase. Congratulations you are now DVC members. You look foward to your summer vacations in your 2br every year. But now after your purchase, the points are reallocated and you no longer have enough points for a 2br so you downgrade to a 1br or cut a day off your trip. To me this is not getting what you paid for.

BINGO!

We bought a 160 pt. contract at AKV in 2008. We did a 50 pt. add-on in 2009.

Somewhere along the way DH and I both had an EPIC misunderstanding about points. We were under the impression that the points required for a villa for one week would never change. They could juggle points between weekend and weekdays, but the total points for a week would remain the same. (Subject to season, of course.) WRONG!

When we were first considering DVC I didn't think it was a great deal because I figured they would just keep cranking up the number of points required. No different than the price going up on a cash ressie. But then somewhere we got the mistaken impression that the points WON'T go up. Our bad.

I haven't compared the pts. it would take to have the same ressie next year that we have this year. I should probably do that.

 

[wdrl]

Since they told you the standard view GV(s) are in Kidani, and not Jambo as some of us had first speculated, it would not surprise me if they were in an as yet undeclared section of Kidani as I don't see how you could categorize the currently declared GVs as anything but savanna view.


If they were always intended to be standard view, it makes sense that they would not add that category to the point charts until they were reasonably certain that they would be available in that year. Right now, based on what is available for diagrams and photos of Kidani, my guess is there will be two GVs that are standard view and will be located on the back (North) side of Phases 91 & 92 where the Pembe Savanna is very minimal to non-existent between the GVs and the woodline.

Are there accommodations at Kidani still under construction? I thought that all of Kidani's villas were completed and available for occupancy by September 2009. Please correct me if I am wrong.

AKV has 22 Grand Villas and 14 have been declared for the DVC membership. If there are GV accommodations still under construction at Kidani, then, of course, the Units which contain those unfinished accommodations cannot be declared for the DVC membership. However, under the Reciprocal Use clause of AKV's Declaration of Condominium, DVC members can book undeclared "completed accommodations which have not yet been committed to the Vacation Ownership Plan." What this means is that on any given Use Day, DVC members can book up to 14 GV accommodations and that it does not matter whether the specific Unit has been declared for the DVC.

If I am right that all of Kidani is completed and available for occupancy, then one of two things is happening with the Standard View GVs: One, Member Services is not allowing members to use points to book the Standard View GVs until 1/1/2011; or Two, during 2010 members are booking the Standard View GVs and being charged with the same number of points as the savanna view GVs.

 

[Chuck S]

Are there accommodations at Kidani still under construction? I thought that all of Kidani's villas were completed and available for occupancy by September 2009. Please correct me if I am wrong.

AKV has 22 Grand Villas and 14 have been declared for the DVC membership. If there are GV accommodations still under construction at Kidani, then, of course, the Units which contain those unfinished accommodations cannot be declared for the DVC membership. However, under the Reciprocal Use clause of AKV's Declaration of Condominium, DVC members can book undeclared "completed accommodations which have not yet been committed to the Vacation Ownership Plan." What this means is that on any given Use Day, DVC members can book up to 14 GV accommodations and that it does not matter whether the specific Unit has been declared for the DVC.

If I am right that all of Kidani is completed and available for occupancy, then one of two things is happening with the Standard View GVs: One, Member Services is not allowing members to use points to book the Standard View GVs until 1/1/2011; or Two, during 2010 members are booking the Standard View GVs and being charged with the same number of points as the savanna view GVs.

Or they could have been in the undeclared inventory. While it is certainly unusual to restrict DVCers only to units in the declared inventory, as usually they simply go by a percentage of the overall resort, it is possible that those particular GVs (how ever many there are) were/are used for cash guests only until 2011. Just as they don't book cash guests into standard or BW views at BWV, they are for members. The reverse is possible at AKV, though I agree it seems unlikely.

 

[drusba]

I wasn't aware of such legal restrictions. Do you know the law or regulation that requires this?

There are numerous provisions contained in Florida Statutes sections 718 and 721 that relate to timeshares that spell out that developers, managing companies, and associtions set up by developers have fiduciary obligations to the unit owners and cannot take actions affecting the unit owners interests for their own self interests or the interests of persons or companies who are not the unit owners. There is also the common law of what a fiuduciary obligation is. Net effect is that such things as point changes must be done solely in the best interests of the unit owners as a whole and if they in fact did to increase sales or help the parent copmpany, they would bne violating the law. You should also not that public offering statements for DVC (which new owners get when they purchase and are part of the contracts), though they give DVD discretion to make the point changes, provide that point changes can be done only as a response to owners useage demand for the rooms and nights.

In other words, if one could show that DVD actually considered making more sales or giving its parent a benefit as a reason for making point changes, such would be a violation of law and the contracts.

 

[bookwormde]

If they are out on the north end, like I am guessing they are not declared in and probably have been rented CRO) and if DVC is changing their classification they must have gottnen some serious complaints (I would complain if I pair $1500 a night for a SV GV and the view was not all that great). Makes me wonder if possibly they downgrades some other units with the same general view. (thaat could be a reason why the AKV 2011 point count looks off). If the total points for a resort have to stay the same and a major group of rooms are moved to a lower "class" (view) that would make the apperent "point creation" make sense since the room type count would have varied sgnificantly from year to year (say if they moved 40 2br equivenents from SV to Standaed view). I am not sur of the propriety of this if theay were undeclared units.

bookwormde

 

[dvc_john]

Yikes! It is actually worse than I thought. The same 12 days are actually 50 points more than the last time we went (2009). Since we aren't going this year, but next in 2011, this really puts a pinch in our points.

50 points more?!?!?

Please post the date you were planning. I have studied the charts and don't see a 50 point increase. Am I missing something????

Actually, a 50 point increase in a 12 day stay between 2009 charts and 2011 charts is not uncommon.

For example:
OKW 2br Dream season 12 day stay with 1 weekend:
2009: 398 points
2011: 454 points
increase: 56 points

 

[wdrl]

Or they could have been in the undeclared inventory. While it is certainly unusual to restrict DVCers only to units in the declared inventory, as usually they simply go by a percentage of the overall resort, it is possible that those particular GVs (how ever many there are) were/are used for cash guests only until 2011. Just as they don't book cash guests into standard or BW views at BWV, they are for members. The reverse is possible at AKV, though I agree it seems unlikely.

Granted, the Standard View GVs could be in the undeclared inventory. But its a moot issue given the Reciprocal Clause. I tend to agree with you that the Standard View GVs may be restricted to cash guests until 1/1/2011.

If they are out on the north end, like I am guessing they are not declared in and probably have been rented CRO) and if DVC is changing their classification they must have gottnen some serious complaints (I would complain if I pair $1500 a night for a SV GV and the view was not all that great). Makes me wonder if possibly they downgrades some other units with the same general view. (thaat could be a reason why the AKV 2011 point count looks off). If the total points for a resort have to stay the same and a major group of rooms are moved to a lower "class" (view) that would make the apperent "point creation" make sense since the room type count would have varied sgnificantly from year to year (say if they moved 40 2br equivenents from SV to Standaed view). I am not sur of the propriety of this if theay were undeclared units.

bookwormde

As I understand it, the total number of resort points must remain constant. If DVD moves some accommodations into a cheaper view category, then other accommodations must increase to make up for the difference. It does not matter whether the accommodations are declared or undeclared. In AKV's case DVD has got about 7,400,190 points that it has to account for, of which 60.43% has been declared. Any movement of accommodations from standard to savanna or savanna to standard must still end up totaling to 7,400,190 points.

 

[DVC92]

There are numerous provisions contained in Florida Statutes sections 718 and 721 that relate to timeshares that spell out that developers, managing companies, and associtions set up by developers have fiduciary obligations to the unit owners and cannot take actions affecting the unit owners interests for their own self interests or the interests of persons or companies who are not the unit owners. There is also the common law of what a fiuduciary obligation is. Net effect is that such things as point changes must be done solely in the best interests of the unit owners as a whole and if they in fact did to increase sales or help the parent copmpany, they would bne violating the law. You should also not that public offering statements for DVC (which new owners get when they purchase and are part of the contracts), though they give DVD discretion to make the point changes, provide that point changes can be done only as a response to owners useage demand for the rooms and nights.

In other words, if one could show that DVD actually considered making more sales or giving its parent a benefit as a reason for making point changes, such would be a violation of law and the contracts.

Right, and I have a bridge to sell you in the desert. If, over the years, they hadn't lowered the minimum purchase requirements which encouraged Sun-Thurs usage in lieu of weekly usage as OKW was marketed back in the day, the disparity between weekdays and weekends would not be so great (if that is in fact the case). I don't believe that any decision is made that doesn't have profit as a consideration, whether it is legal or not (take the extension as an example). DVD and DVCMC may be separate legal entities, but they are one and the same. $$$$$ drive DVC!

 

[discott71]

I'm fairly new to DVC. This November will be our second DVC trip to Kidani - our home resort. I understood the points could shift between weekends and weekdays, but in AKV's case it seems that weekly points have changed between the seasons too which stinks. Savanna views - especially 1 bdrm jumped! Our trip this November is 271 points for 9 nights. That same trip in 2011 will be 285 points - a 14 point increase. Seems a little steep to me. During the same time frame, a standard view or two bedroom are only going up 7 - 9 points. Why is the 1 bdrm sav. taking such a hit . Am I missing something? We only travel once every year and this is kind of a downer. I kind of feel cheated.

 

[Chuck S]

I'm sorry you fell cheated, but our paper work clearly states that the pont charts have a maximimun reallocation, including eliminating all seasonal and weekend vs weekday differences. Meaning that ultimately, it could be the same number of points every night, year round.

 

[Brian Noble]

Any movement of accommodations from standard to savanna or savanna to standard must still end up totaling to 7,400,190 points.

How did they pull off BWV's Standard View? I was under the impression that that happened after the point total was established, but nothing else went up.

 

[wdrl]

For those of you interested in measuring the impact of the 2011 point chart on AKV's total points, I have posted some data on TSMIII's thread about AKV. See http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=35129542&postcount=123.

The chart shows the number of Units, points, and number and type of accommodations, broken out by Jambo and Kidani and declared/undeclared.

As I point out in that post, I still do not know how many accommodations are in each view category. Without this information, any computation of AKV's total points for booking purposes will be suspect.

What we really need is for work2play to make up some maps of AKV rooms and views like she has already done for BLT!!!

 

[wdrl]

How did they pull off BWV's Standard View? I was under the impression that that happened after the point total was established, but nothing else went up.

That is a really good question that I wish I knew the answer. The BWV changes were before my time and I don't know what really happened. What I'd like to see are the point charts before and after DVD rolled out the BWV Standard View category AND counts of all accommodations by type and view category before and after the change.

I believe that something had to change to permit the Standard Views to come into play. Lets say that DVD sold 5,400,000 points for BWV. Then, it lowers the booking cost of 20% of the resort, with the result that it only takes 4,900,000 points to book the entire BWV. What happens to the extra 500,000 points? I would think this is a major violation of timeshare law because the BWV owners have bought 500,000 points that can't be used.

That is why I start with the premise that if something goes down, another part must go up.

If anyone has information about BWV's situation, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[tjkraz]

BWV was not fully declared into invertory when they decided to create the Standard View. They adjusted the latter declarations to allow for the lower SV points.