Do YOU wear Confederate apparel ?

basas said:
I don't see how this flag is any different than any other flag of somewhere which supported political practices or ideas that might not be considered ‘acceptable’ today. In other words, because at one time most Americans believe women shouldn’t have the right to vote, the US didn’t allow them to vote, and the US flag was the flag of this nation, that if you wear the flag, you are automatically ‘anti-women voting’? The same goes for any other flag of a nation which at one time promoted slavery, or sending certain groups to concentration camps/internment camps, etc. (which would pretty much rule out any country on this earth). Times change. The supporters under the flag may have supported slavery 150 years ago, but who knows what their political ideologies might have been now. I don’t believe the flag stands for slavery or other such associated causes, but rather that was simply one of their political beliefs at the time. I don’t see a problem with wearing it.

The problem is we currently have a racist group that has taken to waving it around. IMO, as long as they are selling these flags at the Klan Store (and OMG can you believe there is such a place?) I think it's in pretty poor taste to wear one. But it is a free county and if that's what you want people to associate you with, true or not, go ahead a wear it.
 
Ugh...absolutely not. I think that most people who wear clothing with a confederate design, or fly flags, or have car stickers, do not really know anything about it, and are just doing it to do it (i.e. portray a certain "country" image, be rebellious just for rebellion sake, or pretend they have some historical knowledge about the situation).

I am mostly annoyed when I see a sticker that says something to the effect of "Heritage not Hate" ....ummmm hello, this so called heritage was based on oppression and division...sounds like hate to me!

Honestly when I see a confederate flag, my gut reaction everytime is "you lost...get over it!" :rolleyes2
 
If she WANTS to wear it, she has no idea what it stood for. I am from the part of Tennessee that WANTED to seceed. I know what it stood for. Hindsight's 20/20. What they did was wrong. what tehy stood for was wrong. But it happened. And it is history. And we must all live with it.

But I will NOT parade that symbol around on my chest. and anyone who does should have the matching white hat.
 
snowwite said:
I feel a Union Jack would be equally offensive.
I understand that the flag was originally meant to be the Navy emblem for the south and is seen as a symbol of southern pride by many. My DH included(he's a southern boy).
So as not to offend our British dis'ers, the Union Jack is the British flag. The Southern Cross is the name for the flag in question.
 

Honu said:
Klan Store (and OMG can you believe there is such a place?)
The klan is still around and strong. They still meet and there are still those 'cross buring' ceremonies that you see in documentaries. :sad2:
 
Several years ago, my reaction would have been an immediate and resounding NO!

Now before I go on let me say, the Confederate flag has been co-opted by racist groups, and has come to have a very negative connotation. As such, anyone with a modicum of cultural sensitive should refrain from wearing or displaying this symbol. Having said that, we have a Mort Kunstler print hanging in our home, that does have the Confederate flag in the scene. In it's historical context. Because the Confederacy is a part of our history, and a part worth remembering.

After spending five years living in Virginia, I learned a great deal about the Civil War, and how it emotionally and historically impacted the South and its residents.

Confederates in the Attic by Tony Horwitz is a fascinating book about the way the War continues to affect the South. I highly recommend it.

Anyway, the Civil War is a complex subject, and the North and South are not easily divided into "good" and "bad". The United States did not engage in war with the Confederacy to end slavery; that was a by-product of a war that was fought to return seceded states back into the fold, and establish this nation as a Union that could not be dissolved.

Northerners were no more likely to be less racist than Southerners. Abolitionist societies may have wanted to end slavery, but not for the purpose of welcoming blacks into white society. One group's purpose was to send blacks back to Africa (the country of Liberia was founded in this manner).

New western territories didn't want to forbid slavery so much as they wanted to keep blacks out of their new territories altogether.

Slavery represented an agrarian, plantation-based economy that was entirely at odds with the North's factory and wage-driven economy. Congressmen from the North and South found themselves at odds with each other on many issues.

Imagine this scenario: you are a citizen of a country, you pay your taxes, you follow the laws, you elect representatives. But your government makes decisions that you feel violate your basic rights, as you understand them. You begin to feel that your government is not only not working in your best interests, but is actively working against you. You meet with other like-minded citizens, and make the bold decision to declare your independence from such a government, and to establish your own country.

Now...did you start the Civil War, or the American Revolution?

Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners. They considered themselves the true sons of the Founding Fathers, carrying on the tradition of rejecting a government that no longer met the needs of it's citizens. The average soldier didn't fight to preserve slavery any more than the average Northern soldier fought to end it.

The Civil War is a fascinating subject, and certainly worth reading about. In terms of the girl who wishes to wear Confederate gear to school however, I would side with the school. They are entitled to establish a dress code, and students are free to dress as they wish outside of school.
 
Wonderful post Va32h!

The Klan and other extremeist groups have made the Confederate Flag what it is today. To the original question, yes I would, yes I have and yes I will and my family and I NEVER owned slaves nor are we racist. However, we are proud to be from the South. I have nothing to be ashamed of and am only making the statement that I'm from the South when I wear a t-shirt with the Confederate Flag on it. People can assume what they wish but I dare anyone to make an assumption about me based on something I wear. As I said before I am about the most un-racist person you will ever meet.
 
/
Sparx said:
If she WANTS to wear it, she has no idea what it stood for.


Rarely do I respond to a thread more than once and it is with great tripidation that I am doing so now. But when I see such patently false information as this statement above I feel drawn point it out.

I do not know the young lady that is fighting to wear this flag, actually I've not even heard about the case until here on the DIS. But for some people in the south this is, indeed, very much an heritage issue. They don't refer to that war as the 'civil' war but rather 'the war between the states' and they DO see it as a states' right to leave the union issue, not a slavery issue. So, it is definitely possible that this young woman DOES know what this flag stood for and purposely chooses to wear it.

But I will repeat the essence of what I stated earlier - I have not, and do not intend to ever wear or display a confederate flag, battle or otherwise, because I know it will hurt people.
 
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle
 
va32h said:
Northerners were no more likely to be less racist than Southerners. .

va32h--I was intrigued by your post and am going to go to Amazon to look up the book you mentioned--Sounds very interesting.

The highlighted quote of yours above is in to no way challenge you, but to ask if this is what the book states?

It is odd that we have always been taught in schools that the slaves wanted to go North.....That they surely thought they would have a better life in the North...That all of the stories of blacks being kept out of schools and colleges seem to come from the South. Back of the Bus, separate water fountains and all of that other vile garbage has always been pinned on the South.

Do you think that the Northerners of the past were truly as racist as the South? Has history been twisted to favor the North as sympathetic, forward thinking people when it came to our black brothers and sisters?

I don't want to debate--I am very interested in what you are saying :wave:
 
From http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

"Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."


But, as we all know, the Nazis took the symbol and it now has very negative connotations. I just couldn't see wearing a swastika on a t-shirt and saying "But you don't know what it _really_ stands for..That is what I am thinking when I wear it. The good times".

I feel the Confederate Flag is now used by a group of cowards that nobody on this thread would EVER want to be associated with. The KKK proudly wears the Confederate flag, just as Hitler wore the Swastika.

It is America and you can wear what you wish. But, if you are judged unfairly while wearing the Confederate Flag, don't be shocked.
 
I am a very proud Southerner. However, what I will or will not wear is not the question. For you see, I no longer attend school. I (and my children) will obey the rules and the dress code of the School. I totally agree w/ the school. No disruptive clothing. I am all for "uniforms" in the schools--but that is whole different thread.
 
va32h said:
Now before I go on let me say, the Confederate flag has been co-opted by racist groups, and has come to have a very negative connotation. As such, anyone with a modicum of cultural sensitive should refrain from wearing or displaying this

Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners. They considered themselves the true sons of the Founding Fathers, carrying on the tradition of rejecting a government that no longer met the needs of it's citizens. The average soldier didn't fight to preserve slavery any more than the average Northern soldier fought to end it.
Thank you va32h for the most unbiased view of this subject I have ever seen.

Yes, the flag has been, in the last 30 to 50 years especially, been co-opted by the radical fringe.

But, you hit the nail with "Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners."

This is the central truth the history books tend to forget, overlook, or ignore.

I KNOW.

My nic is real. I am living 2 miles from where great-great grand dad was living in a cabin in 1848. Three of my great great grand dads who were in this country and of military age were Conferderate calvary soldiers and survived the war, or I would not be here. I know of three, but I do not know of the fourth who might have been in the conflict. I recently discovered a great great uncle that died in the US POW camp in Elmira, NY, in the horrible last winter of the war. It was not just Andersonville where such things happened.

They were not rich or slave owning, just hard working dirt farmers. When the "times came" and their state was threatened, they became full time or militia soldiers. At the end of the conflict, they surrendered, were pardoned, swore an allegence to the USA, and went home to become hard working American farmers. With Southern pride for having put their lives on the line for what they believed in. For them, the racist/slavery issue was such a minor part it was not an issue.

The recent PC history books paint it otherwise.
 
hentob said:
va32h--I was intrigued by your post and am going to go to Amazon to look up the book you mentioned--Sounds very interesting.

The highlighted quote of yours above is in to no way challenge you, but to ask if this is what the book states?

It is odd that we have always been taught in schools that the slaves wanted to go North.....That they surely thought they would have a better life in the North...That all of the stories of blacks being kept out of schools and colleges seem to come from the South. Back of the Bus, separate water fountains and all of that other vile garbage has always been pinned on the South.

Do you think that the Northerners of the past were truly as racist as the South? Has history been twisted to favor the North as sympathetic, forward thinking people when it came to our black brothers and sisters?

I don't want to debate--I am very interested in what you are saying :wave:

Read Native Son by Richard Wright or The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. While both are works of fiction, they give an amazing insight into the racial and ethnic segregation that went on in the large cities of the North.

If your skin was a specific color or you were of a specific ethnic group, you were expected to work certain jobs, live in certain places, and just take what was given you. There was definitely a pecking order to society.

I don't mean this to say that what was going on in the South was right...absolutely not, far from it. But things weren't necessarily better for some groups in the North.
 
hentob said:
I feel the Confederate Flag is now used by a group of cowards that nobody on this thread would EVER want to be associated with. The KKK proudly wears the Confederate flag, just as Hitler wore the Swastika.

It is America and you can wear what you wish. But, if you are judged unfairly while wearing the Confederate Flag, don't be shocked.

Right on - good stuff here!
 
FlaNative said:
va32h said:
Now before I go on let me say, the Confederate flag has been co-opted by racist groups, and has come to have a very negative connotation. As such, anyone with a modicum of cultural sensitive should refrain from wearing or displaying this

Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners. They considered themselves the true sons of the Founding Fathers, carrying on the tradition of rejecting a government that no longer met the needs of it's citizens. The average soldier didn't fight to preserve slavery any more than the average Northern soldier fought to end it.
Thank you va32h for the most unbiased view of this subject I have ever seen.

Yes, the flag has been, in the last 30 to 50 years especially, been co-opted by the radical fringe.

But, you hit the nail with "Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners."

This is the central truth the history books tend to forget, overlook, or ignore.

I KNOW.

My nic is real. I am living 2 miles from where great-great grand dad was living in a cabin in 1848. Three of my great great grand dads who were in this country and of military age were Conferderate calvary soldiers and survived the war, or I would not be here. I know of three, but I do not know of the fourth who might have been in the conflict. I recently discovered a great great uncle that died in the US POW camp in Elmira, NY, in the horrible last winter of the war. It was not just Andersonville where such things happened.

They were not rich or slave owning, just hard working dirt farmers. When the "times came" and their state was threatened, they became full time or militia soldiers. At the end of the conflict, they surrendered, were pardoned, swore an allegence to the USA, and went home to become hard working American farmers. With Southern pride for having put their lives on the line for what they believed in. For them, the racist/slavery issue was such a minor part it was not an issue.

The recent PC history books paint it otherwise.


My family is also from the south. Our southern pride does not include that flag. When my family comes across the confederate flag, it invokes memories of fear and hate.
 
The highlighted quote of yours above is in to no way challenge you, but to ask if this is what the book states?

hentob, no that isn't really what the book is about. It's a travelogue really, Tony Horwitz grew up with a Civil War buff for a father, and like many boys, read about battle tactics and heroic acts, and looked at the war as a grand adventure tale.

As an adult, he realized that there were more complex issues involved in the war, specifically in the continued fascination that the Civil War holds over generation after generation.

So he went on a trip through the south, to try and learn why we can't seem to "get over" this war. The subtitle in fact is "Dispatches from the unfinished Civil War".

In fact the book is quite honest about the racism that the author encounters, throughout the south.

In saying that the 19th century North was no more racist than the 19th century South - that's my own interpretation, based on my reading and studying.

Of course I can't speak for every person of that era, no historian can. But Victorian abolitionist groups tended to be motivated by a sort of condescension and patronization. A "save the poor slaves, because they are inferior creatures who need rescuing," mentality. And it is true that some groups campaigned to end slavery so that all blacks could be rounded up and sent back to Africa - including the ones that were born in the Americas.

Ironically, it could be argued that Southerners might have a more humanistic view of black Americans, because blacks were an integral part of their communities. This in NO WAY defends or excuses slavery - slavery and the treatment of blacks in the south is and was an abomination. But somehwere there's a statistic about interracial relationships and marriages being more prominent in the South than in the North, befure, during, and after the Civil War era. That is one small example of a way that some Southerners had more of a willingness to establish equal relationships with blacks.

It is odd that we have always been taught in schools that the slaves wanted to go North.....That they surely thought they would have a better life in the North...That all of the stories of blacks being kept out of schools and colleges seem to come from the South. Back of the Bus, separate water fountains and all of that other vile garbage has always been pinned on the South.

Sure, absolutely. But there were (and are) racial clashes in Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York too. The winner gets to write the history books, the saying goes. But absolutely, the Civil Rights movement demonstrated the absolute worst of Southern racism, and the frightening depths of the the racial hatred there.

In one sense, racism is more prominent in the South because there is more opportunity for that sort of thing. After the War, the South was (and remains) home to many blacks. Just as you'll find Anglo-Hispanic clashes in Texas and Arizona, because many Hispanics live there. You probably won't hear about racial divisiveness in some little Minnesota town where there are no black people.

I also think that blacks were scapegoated by unhappy whites who felt denigrated and humiliated during the Reconstruction. Like many groups who feel victimized, they found a politically and socially weaker target upon which to vent their frustration.

One of the points made in the book was that the Civil War is the last war fought on American soil, and the only time Americans have suffered a loss. You can still see the battlefields, the buildings - this war is not just a collection of words and pictures about some foreign place that we read about in high school history. It's a living, breathing, thing.

Do you think that the Northerners of the past were truly as racist as the South? Has history been twisted to favor the North as sympathetic, forward thinking people when it came to our black brothers and sisters?

I think there were very few people in the 19th century, in any country that fully considered all races and ethnic groups equal.

You should read some of the travelogues of 19th century British explorers who traveled in and established colonies in Africa and India! And the original texts of Mary Poppins and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory have some really offensive comments and illustrations regarding Africans.

Achieving racial equality and harmony has been a long hard trip on a long hard road, and I really do think that road is still stretching out for miles and miles ahead of us.
 
va32h--

You are an amazing writer. Amazing :goodvibes

Thank you so much for your response. I know it took some time to write it and I REALLY appreciate it.

VERY educational :thumbsup2
 
I believe that if she wants to wear it, they should let her wear it. Sometimes the PC police can go too far.

My own high school is an example of PC gone too far. For more than 30 years, the school's mascot was the Southern rebel and one of the things we did was fly the confederate flag at football games. It was in the school's logo, as well as on the uniforms of the drill team.

In my soph year, the school district decided it was too 'controversial' and extremely un-PC to have this flag as part of the school at all. We could continue to use the rebel as our mascot, but it would be up to the students as to whether we could continue to fly the Confederate flag.

Or so they said. :rolleyes: They had student referendums so that the student body could voice their opinions on the subject, but we found out later the district had decided to remove the flag from the logo, etc even before we were allowed to have our say. :rolleyes: It was a huge deal to the students and there were even a group who got thrown out a few days after the so-called referendums because of a teeshirt they wore. It had a confederate flag on the front with a large black bar across it that read 'censored' in white. On the back was something about freedom of speech, Southern heritage and freedom to dress as they chose.

The school's 300 something strong band was ordered to take "Dixie" out of their repitoire and the choir was ordered NOT to sing a slow version of "Dixie" at the final concert of the year, per senior tradition. We were told that the soph class was also the last ones to be able to have the confederate flag on our school rings. Afterwards, the ring company would take it out of the catalog all together.

You can imagine the students being upset and angry over this. I know I was. My class was also the last one to be able to use the confederate flag in the design of our graduation invitations.

My senior year, just to tweak the noses of the district people and the choir director (who'd threatened to fail each and every senior if we went through with the tradition), we got together and sang "Dixie" anyway as the last song of the spring concert. Most of the parents knew about the tradition being 'banned' and there probably wasn't a dry eye in the house afterwards. I know I was a little teary-eyed, as were most of the other senior choir members.

TOV
 

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