Disney Skyliner Accident

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But when you have all new operators you need way more than that, even if it’s industry standard. Disney trained for 3 weeks but how many CM were there all 3 weeks?

They should have opened one line at a time, to allow training at full capacity.
Plenty of ski resorts have huge turnover year to year, just like Disney they rely a lot on college students and recent grads, and Disney did hire from the ski industry as well so it wasn’t all new to the entire cast.
I seriously doubt this was a training issue. Whatever it was though, it’s serious and I’m sure they’ll figure it out relatively quickly. I have my theories but we’ll see.
 
Like everyone else here I don't know anything but...it seems like if someone would have pushed an E stop button before he teal gondola got pushed up and sideways "as seen in pics" it could have been over sooner
 
Heat related medical issues can be just as serious as the injuries you mention, even worse.

I absolutely agree. But I was replying to a quote that Disney lied about there being no injuries and I was just pondering if that is simply a matter of very careful wording on the part of Disney. In other words, while there were some medical issue, there were no injuries. I was saying that a technicality may allow Disney to truthfully word things as such, even though people did suffer health concerns due to the incident.
 
Per the sentinel article, RCFD evacuated six (yes, 6) cabins during the 3.5 hours.

The plan must be to always get the line running because I’d say that evacuation of the entire line is impossible.

Even if RCFD is currently undermanned, you’d need to scale 50x to make it practical to evac the whole line. And people are arguing (and I don’t disagree) that 3 hours is too long.

It’ll be interesting to see what comes of this.
IMHO, they are using the wrong equipment. Fire trucks aren't that quick and require a lot of people to operate. They aren't designed to go up and down, up and down, over and over again. They should have a fleet of Telescopic Boom Lifts with an army of people trained on how to use them.

But, they want to transfer liability from Disney to RCFD, which is why they put the firefighters in an untenable position, as opposed to staffing for an evac themselves.
 


Why did they only evacuate 6 cars? I don't know, do you? Maybe knowing the temperature and time of day, they conserved their resources. Maybe they didn't know what they were doing. I have no idea.

Exactly. I don’t know either, but I would not be surprised if they determined the risk of evacuations was greater than the risk of letting people wait it out on a mild October evening. Maybe they evacuated people who were determined to be at higher risk for some reason. Again, we don’t know. But it seems silly to assume that the response on a hot July afternoon would match this event.
 
IMHO, they are using the wrong equipment. Fire trucks aren't that quick and require a lot of people to operate. They aren't designed to go up and down, up and down, over and over again. They should have a fleet of Telescopic Boom Lifts with an army of people trained on how to use them.

But, they want to transfer liability from Disney to RCFD, which is why they put the firefighters in an untenable position, as opposed to staffing for an evac themselves.
Isn't the RCFD part of the Disney owned/controlled municipal corporation?

Edit- I googled it. Not "technically" owned by disney, but the area has like less than 50 residents and they are Disney employees lol
 
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I think because its not an end station, there is no where to put it
They could've put a secondary loop at Riveria on the side of the inside and outside of the corner. It would've made the foot print much bigger and more complex, though.
 


Eh.... admitted I’m arm-chairing this... but electric cars get jostled plenty. I live in New England where we have Teslas aplenty running in our blizzards and our ugly humid summers. Over all sorts of road surfaces and varied city traffic conditions. Just try getting into Boston on a Monday morning. Jostled doesn’t begin to describe it. Or heat from the engine, plus tarmac, on a 90+ degree day.

Location of the battery could be engineered appropriately. And the entire unit has the ability to charge in real-time if solar was used (see Tesla’s roof technology), battery size can be minimal.

I don’t doubt the concept is not simple. It’s certainly expensive. I looked into the Tesla tech for my summer cottage roof, couldn’t justify it, even with our current A/C costs.

And really, I’m thinking more the one repeating factor on all the Skyliner threads on DIS -

What if it stopped in mid July at 2pm?

So even as an emergency cooling system, there is no way something like this in today’s world couldn’t exist.

Designing a battery system for a car that moves is not the Tesla Powerwall system; it is a different application with different cell designs.

It's not just the location of the battery system, but the sizing, duty cycle and cycle life that are key parameters (not to mention voltage limits, charge rate acceptance and heat rejection).

The key is marrying the cell architecture, chemistry and the temperature limits that would be the prime drivers in the design. Then there's initial cost, operational cost and a unique (BMS) design.

Sure the PV can be charged real-time, but the question of how many Ah can be injected in the cell pack is a question.

I absolutely think that an adequate energy storage system can be designed for both the gondolas and monorails.
 
Isn't the RCFD part of the Disney owned/controlled municipal corporation?

Edit- I googled it. Not "technically" owned by disney, but the area has like less than 50 residents and they are Disney employees lol
Yeah, it's Disney's city, but it is still a city.
 
I seriously doubt that's the logic. That's like saying "here, we'll sell you this expensive timeshare, and if you have mobility issues, simply go much farther to the next station to board.". I really think it was a budget cut. Either that or there's a logistical issue with a mid-line station that I'm not aware of. I'm the farthest thing from an expert on gondolas, I'm afraid. It still seems odd that they have the special loading platforms everywhere but one station.
No, I’m saying that logistically if it’s a pass through (aka midline) then you can’t detach / attach a gondola. But again, my knowledge is maybe only 1% better than a bus driver’s and 20% worse than a boat captain’s.
 
Exactly. I don’t know either, but I would not be surprised if they determined the risk of evacuations was greater than the risk of letting people wait it out on a mild October evening. Maybe they evacuated people who were determined to be at higher risk for some reason. Again, we don’t know. But it seems silly to assume that the response on a hot July afternoon would match this event.
Except we do know based off of what the RCFD and people involved have said. Reps for the RCFD firefighters have said that this incident used up all their resources plus back up from the sheriff departments of Orange and Osceola counties and that it would have been catastrophic if anything else had happened that night that needed the RCFD or if this had happened at noon. (The Orlando Sentinel articles with this are linked upthread.)

We have firsthand accounts of the RCFD going gondola to gondola to evacuate and the gondolas resuming movement while they were in the process of trying to reach the next gondola which is worrying as someone else said upthread. What if someone had been stepping out of the gondola when it started moving again? Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing being said anywhere by the people involved that suggests that guests were somehow triaged and evacuated accordingly.

The RCFD has been saying since May that they weren't equipped to handle the gondolas (a Google search will turn up the articles, some actually going farther back to December). They're saying now that they're not equipped for the gondolas. So why do so many people on this thread think they know better than the RCFD what the RCFD is equipped to handle?

If we're not accepting what the people who lived through it are saying or what the reps for the firefighters at RCFD are saying about it, then what sources exactly are people going to believe?
 
Exactly. I don’t know either, but I would not be surprised if they determined the risk of evacuations was greater than the risk of letting people wait it out on a mild October evening. Maybe they evacuated people who were determined to be at higher risk for some reason. Again, we don’t know. But it seems silly to assume that the response on a hot July afternoon would match this event.
I agree with this. It shouldn’t automatically be assumed that last night’s response is exactly how a response on a midsummer afternoon would go. But that is immediately where everyone’s heads went, once it was confirmed no one was seriously hurt—“Omg, but what if it had been July?!” And that is the question Disney will have to answer. Even if last night went exactly as planned and all decisions made were measured and intentional, folks are going to want to know how an even more emergent incident would be handled.
 
Disney hasn't offered much. Posters are speculating and in some cases making up facts out of thin air. We don't know if Disney was lying or if the CM making statements was telling us what was known by that CM at the time the statement was made. We have no idea how much hotter the gondolas got after sitting or 3 + hours. I haven't read any first hand reports suggesting oven like conditions.

What do we know
The Skyliner Disney is using has been used successfully in locations through out the world. Doppelmayr employees were on site for the construction and training. What's different about Disney vs other installations. A significant number of Disney guests use ECVs. Many, probably most, of those guests rent their scooters in Orlando. Some (many?) only use the scooters when vacationing in Disney. ECV users have different skill levels and experience levels. Disney thought guests, either in the special loading areas in most stations and the slower moving gondolas in the Riveria station, could board with ECVs and strollers without having to stop the line. We know CMs were telling parents with double strtollers to fold it before boarding. We know from posters CMs were generally stopping the skyline when ECV guests were boarding.

Some reasoned assumptions. Guests with ECV are expected to drive onto the bus. The driver is only required to secure the ECV. Almost every time I've observed an ECV boarding a bus the driver either moves the ECV enteriely after the ECV is driven on the bus or substantially assistes the guest. It's plausible the typical ECV guest isn't capable of driving the ECV into the gondola and/or backing it out at the other end in the time available at the Riviera station without having to stop the line.

Solutions might include positioning room assignments so CBR guests generally board at the CBR station. Disney may need to have CMs load the ECVs How many ECVs can be loaded at once in the Riviera station? Stop the line and load that many ECV guests at once. Repeat after you have that number of ECV guests waiting.

Is it possible the frequent E-Stops isn't generally experienced in other locations. Could those stops have caused some mechanical issues.
edited to add: Also possible constant starting and stopping due to ECV loading caused CM to routinely hit restart buttons without following procedure. Certainly possible ECV loading had nothing to do with last nights issue and is a separate issue.
 
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The comments on liftblog are interesting. These folks know their lifts!

https://liftblog.com/2019/10/05/disney-skyliner-evacuation-underway/
looks like maybe the launching/holding clutch disengaged and cabins kept coming into the station ?? Have heard of a similar situation on a tight spacing one sided mid station on a Doppelmayr. They ended up running the evacuation engine in reverse to untangle the mess. Unloaded some passengers in reverse and some in forward. Who knows if the anti collision caught the problem and then the lift was restarted and etc??

That’s usually what’s happens when the lift operators acknowledge and start again after an automatic stop from the anti-collision system… without any investigation and looking if all gondolas are still moving!
In this case, they probably re-started the lift at least two times to get such stacking and a high speed collision which break the gondola glass!
 
No, I’m saying that logistically if it’s a pass through (aka midline) then you can’t detach / attach a gondola. But again, my knowledge is maybe only 1% better than a bus driver’s and 20% worse than a boat captain’s.
So - maybe some of the boat captains on this thread can help - RIV is at a turn, but does this link below mean gondolas *can* be added? Now that I look at it, maybe.

http://gondolaproject.com/cornering/
 
What an incredible assumption you are making and what a fantastically spectacular way to be wrong and insulting at the same time. Truly, such rudeness is completely uncalled for. I cited my source, the owner of the DIS himself shared this information on the podcast. I repeated it. I apologize that it was not

Apologies, it was not directed at you, but rather the source(I could have worded it better), I meant it highlights an issue with ther internet. There is no editor. No fact-checking. Websites that we take to be reputable propagate misnformation and then all of a sudden every website becomes "random website.net". If you want to be part of the media realm you should be getting your facts correct(not you specifically OP). It is very believable that the cars would have some sort of air conditioning until you actually see them of course, at which point you realize there is really no place for air conditioning components to be installed on the cars. But people who have not been to Walt Disney World recently will have no idea that that is the case and then they believe that the cars are air conditioned because of bad information from the source again not meaning you specifically.
 
I was in one of the stuck gondolas last night. I’ve been skimming through and there are a couple points that were brought up that I can address.

I have a different perspective, not that I doubt Disney is being cautious with what they say for legal reasons. If you were one of the 1000+ people stuck 60 feet in the air, would you rather hear it's due to a power issue or because the very ride you are on has crashed further down the line? Seems like some of the secrecy may have been to protect the guests.
I can't imagine any company coming forth with a message involving the words "crash" or "injury" while other people were still trapped in that situation. That's asking for panic, in my mind. And from a legal standpoint for sure they'd not say those things. They probably would shy away from "stress" and from saying they could "verify" anything.
The only thing we were being told in the gondolas through the speakers was that there was a “temporary delay” And “thank you for your patience. We had access to social media. We had seen the pictures of the collided cars. I would have much preferred to hear something like “There is a blocked line at the Riviera station that has halted the gondola system for the time being. We are working to clear the line and we will keep you updated.” Additionally, the speaker in our cabin was very staticky and cut out a couple times, so the few times they did give a new message, like when they told us we could open the emergency kits, it was difficult to make out what was said.

Don’t get me wrong, 3.5 hours is significantly longer than what I would want to be spending in a gondola, but perhaps, if they only evacuated 6 cars, they were only evacuating cars that pressed the emergency button, knowing that the line was going to get back into service to be able to run the system to be able to empty it in a way that would not put an unnecessary strain on the RCFD that may be needed elsewhere at the time?
how do they figure that out? If it is a button I am sure more than six cars pressed the button after three hours of being stranded. Do they have two way communication to the gondola?
We pressed the emergency button in our cabin about halfway through because one person was having a panic attack - shaking, breathing too fast, feeling numb in her fingers, etc. We told them this, and they just made a generic comment that they were working on resolving the situation and then the speaker cut-off mid-sentence and they never spoke directly to us again. They did not connect us with any medical personnel for advice. They did not check back with us through the speaker at any point. We never even saw anyone on the ground looking up at our gondola to try to figure out how to evacuate us or anything like that. (We were over water, so we would have needed a special evacuation method.) Thankfully, another person in our cabin had experienced panic attacks before and was able to help - I don’t know what would have happened if no one in our car had known how to best help her slow down her breathing and try to get through the panic attack.

I'm sure there are many different versions of compensation for this incident but for the example I saw, the person stuck had to seek out a CM once they were off the gondola. No one was greeting them or offering up compensation. They broached the subject of compensation after being stuck 3.5 hours and offered $100 gift card and one park ticket.
I don't know how it was at other locations, but my car was close to the Epcot station and there was someone at the platform handing out the gift cards and tickets as we got onto the platform. We did not have to ask. They also took the information for a point of contact for our group. They also provided my group with a hotel room and sleepwear because we had driven in for a day trip from a couple hours away - the gondola ride had been the last thing we had planned to do before heading home.
 
Yeah, it's Disney's city, but it is still a city.
Read reality world. When Disney bought the land there was nothing there they needed all the services that government normally provides. Reedy Creek is basically a quasi government entity sort of controlled by Disney which controls the town of Bay Lake and its 7 residents or whatever it is it actually has a mayor. A total aside, but interesting history for the Disney fan. RCID actually tends to have building codes that exceed those if the surrounding area.
 
Please no one needs to second guess what went wrong. Basically the system had a major failure. It's gonna take weeks to figure out the root cause. The recovery plan should have been in a hazard assessment like any ride system. If not, shame on disney and the real designers, Imagineering. A mess yes.

Heads are going to roll and this isn't looking good for their leader. 1st SHDL, then tower of terror conversion, then SWGE, then this. We're looking at billions spent in the cap projects and this adds to the result (iger and the board will be asking: what did I get for my $$).
 
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