DEBATE: Disney Monorails. Magical - Yes. But Effective?

[DisneyKidds]

Just a quick note on money. It would be one thing to spend $500m to $1b on a new, "non direct reveue" generating, magical transportatin system if it were guaranteed to be faster, more efficient, and solve a mjority of the problems with the existing system. It is another thing to spend that much money on the transportation equivalent of go.com.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Another Voice
The flexibility offered by busses is that you can change their routes on a whim (provided the road is already built). That's great when the concentrations of loads vary from location to location or when you've got a far-flung city and need to be able to accommodate summer routes to the beach. Yet in WDW's case, it is extremely unlikely that a theme park is going to pick-up and move across town. There will never be a need to change a monorail route because suddenly the demand just isn't there anymore.

It's not about the theme parks... it's about the resorts. As you say, "That's great when the concentrations of loads vary from location to location" And that's exactly the issue... the concentration of loads varies throughout the resorts during different times of the day. We can guess and estimate where people will go and when... but ultimatly, it's a crap shoot.

Originally posted by Another Voice
The other claimed flexibility to busses is the "flexibility" in capacity. All that means is you can add more busses on the same route. Provided you have the busses and the drivers. A monorail train has a capacity many times that of a bus, adding a single additional train, if even needed because of the initial higher capacity, is the equivenet of adding five or more busses.

One thing about the Monorail... it's capacity is not as great as everyone thinks. The Rated maximum crush capacity is 364, normal capacity is 316. However, on an average park exit... unless there is a tour group of Brazillians, the average capacity runs around 244 or less. (Due to unfolded strollers and such)

Originally posted by Another Voice
The cost of having five busses arriving at the same place at the same time is tremendously higher.

Not really... between the cost of the electricity (very great) and station attendants (because a monorail station will need at least one, if not two) my guess would be that the monorail would be once again greater in cost. I wish I still had my figures on the cost of electricity required for those trains... it was exorbanant.

Originally posted by Another Voice
If you read my "rumor", you'll see the main line would allow travel between all of the parks without any transfers at all. Even modern day Disney can adapt and learn.

Park to Park, perhaps... but what about the resorts? And remember... once you add all those stops in, that really slows things down.

Originally posted by Another Voice
As for the costs – do you have any idea how much revenue is lot by having thousands of guests strung out on curbs waiting for busses all day?

Isn't it presumtious to say that they're out waiting for busses, but wouldn't be waiting for a monorail? And what if that monorail arrives quicker... but takes longer to get to the final destination? When it all comes down to it... whatever form of transportation they have is going to take time.

Originally posted by Another Voice
(Mr. Express, are you going to tell us 'railers and Bussers get along fine with each other?)
We work as a team... mostly because people like myself have been in multiple areas. We have bus drivers that are former monorail pilots, and vice versa. Same with Watercraft. We even have outings together. We're not enemies. We don't consider a person better or worse because of the department they're in. I have friends in both Monorails and Watercraft... we get along great. And at the end of a long day, we all share simmilar stories about what we encountered during the day.

Originally posted by Another Voice
The guests complaints received from people complaining transferring at the TTC are dwarfed by those people who waited a hour for a bus, got stranded at Downtown Disney, or who's poor grandmother was forced to stand on a lurching buss from Point A to Point X.

First off... No one forces anyone to stand on a bus. And don't forget, you have a 62% chance of getting a seat on a bus, and only a 40-50% chance of sitting on the monorail.

As for wait times... 95% of all guest complains about wait times are grossly exaggerated, or complete fabrications. Hate to say it, but it's true. 5% may be true, but 95% are not. I cannot tell you how many times I've been driving, and I hear a driver get on the radio to let the dispatcher know a guest claims to have been waiting for a bus for 45 mins... 5 seconds later, a driver gets on and says he was just there 5 minutes ago. I've had it happen to me... it happens all the time.




Now... one more thing that I want to mention, that no one has brought up...

MECHANICAL FAILURE.

It's going to happen at some point. Monorail, bus, PRT, BRT, watercraft, automobile, doesn't matter. It will break down at some point.

When a monorail experiences a technical difficulty... (which is often, due to the electronics involved) it often times holds up the entire system. Because of the nature of a fixed guideway system, one train can't pass the broken down train. This can often cause delays of up to an hour... and that's just on our current small system. On a larger scale system, it could potentially be longer. 240 people on the train, plus thousands waiting at the stations could be inconvenienced...

With a bus... one bus breaks down... a maximum of 72 people are inconvenienced for a few minutes until a replacement bus arrives and takes them onto their destination.

I've had both happen to me before. When my monorail died, many hundreds of people were inconvenienced as maintenance tried to repair my train. If that wasn't sucessful, I had to go back to shop... a timely process. Then they have to replace the train... another timely process.

When my bus decided to die in front of the Polynesian, I had about 25 people on board... within 5-7 minutes, they were on another bus off to Caribbean Beach.

 

[DoeWDW]

Tyler, thanks for joining us! Your information is very interesting and helpful. I, for one, hope you stick around on this board.

Hopemax, the Skytran link was excellent. I think this is a VERY Disney system and much less expensive than the monorail. However, it does have some of the same limitations as the monorail on long, single threaded sections if there's a breakdown. All in all, though, I think the Skytran idea has merit and would be worth looking into.

 

[raidermatt]

First, another welcome to Mr. Express. Its always good to have different viewpoints, particularly from those close to certain pieces of the puzzle.

We can guess and estimate where people will go and when... but ultimatly, it's a crap shoot.

I can accept minor variations, but not a crap shoot. Geez, just as a guest I can figure out certain patterns. I'm sure Disney can do this quite well. Certainly the heaviest periods are rather easy to predict.

Then what do they want? Quick, fast, efficient transportation from Point A to Point B. No stops, no connections, no transfers. No fuss, no muss. They'd PREFER it to be via monorail, however, throw in a transfer for the Monorail, and the majority of guests would prefer to take the faster, and direct bus.

Again, its all a matter of how fast, how easy, and how direct. Busses make multiple stops as well, and its not all that fun stopping at 5 CBR stops before you get to your area. Further, direct bus service is not available resort to resort. We are told to allow an HOUR, and that is often wishful thinking.

I can understand the problems with having transfers, but these can be minimized.

Not really... between the cost of the electricity (very great) and station attendants (because a monorail station will need at least one, if not two) my guess would be that the monorail would be once again greater in cost. I wish I still had my figures on the cost of electricity required for those trains... it was exorbanant.

Fixed rail is much cheaper than busses. Yes it uses electricity, which causes pollution, but its per capita pollution rate is much less than motorized transport.

Isn't it presumtious to say that they're out waiting for busses, but wouldn't be waiting for a monorail?

Only if we presume the transportation engineers would develop efficient schedules. I can only say from experience that the average wait for a bus (and boat too, for that matter) has been much longer for us than our waits for the Monorail.

First off... No one forces anyone to stand on a bus.

What an intresting viewpoint... Other than not riding the bus, what other options do the SRO folks have?

As for wait times... 95% of all guest complains about wait times are grossly exaggerated, or complete fabrications. Hate to say it, but it's true. 5% may be true, but 95% are not.

I have no doubt that there are exagerrations, but to say that 95% are GROSSLY exaggerated or COMPLETE fabrications is just not true. While I don't work in Disney's transportation department, I have analyzed many of these types of situations as they relate to customer perception, employee perception and reality. Invariably, the reality lies between the two.

I cannot tell you how many times I've been driving, and I hear a driver get on the radio to let the dispatcher know a guest claims to have been waiting for a bus for 45 mins... 5 seconds later, a driver gets on and says he was just there 5 minutes ago. I've had it happen to me... it happens all the time.

Yes, and I can tell you about the time my wife waited ONE hour for a bus to the GF. Perhaps some driver claimed to have stopped, but none actually did.

In the end, I have to agree with Tyler. While a monorail might seem like a magical concept, when you lay it all out and try to figure out a way to make it work it just isn’t that practical a solution.

Just a quick comment to DK....Just as the Monorail is not the only form of transportation in the MK area, it would not have to be the only form of transportation elsewhere.

Expanding the monorail would not be financially wise for the company.

I disagree.

Believe it or not, Walt Disney World is a BUSINESS...

Let's get beyond this right from the start. Most are well aware of WDW's status as a BUSINESS. Much of the reason their practices and decisions are being called into question is the declining performance of that business.

Decsions to focus on the lack of a direct revenue stream instead of providing a unique entertainment experience are HURTING business. Of course Monorails do not generate revenue directly. Neither do busses. Or swimming pools. Neither do the shows and attractions in the parks. They never did (except under the old ticketing system). Does that mean investing in them is not justified? Of course not, but Disney's direction has been to limit this investment because of the difficulty in tieing it to a tangible revenue stream.

The problem is, these things indirectly tie to many revenue streams. Just because somebody couldn't quantify the impact does not mean there is no impact.

Mr. Express, I appreciate your viewpoint, and certainly you are knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of WDW transportation. But providing family entertainment is about much more than nuts and bolts. Disney is selling an experience, and everything that happens inside the gates is a part of that experience. So there is most definitely great value in considering things other than whether something might take 2 extra minutes.

As I've said before, the solution does not have to be just the Monorail. Furhter, it doesn't even HAVE to include the Monorail. But to say that there is no problem is not taking into account the real reasons why people pay so much money to take WDW vacations.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

There is an old saying that recommends making things as simple as possible, but no simpler.

The fact is that there are two distinct transportation needs at WDW. Enormous instantaneous load routed to/from relatively few destinations during park open/close, and light instantaneous load routed anywhere on property all day.

An effective transportation system must address both those traffic patterns.

The best solution would involve a fast, high-capacity, short interval loop connecting major access points, with local service to specific points of interest emanating from those access points.

Everything Tyler says appears absolutely true, but it is presented as though the only question was "how can we get this down to one system?" It is easy to see only the negatives of the opposite position, if you feel it has an either/or relationship to your own. Both bus and monorail have their place in the real world Disney transportation system.

The root of the problem is that for too long, Disney has habitually made the decision to invest in the low upfront expense and high flexibility of the bus infrastructure, even at times when the World's geography changed, and the real need was to invest in the other type of transportation (and by the way, lest one take me for a fuddy-duddy who doesn't want to greet the new millenium, I would welcome some Disney-designed or Disney-backed alternative mode of transporatation... that kind of innovation is a Disney tradition, too. I just don't see how busses, even souped-up busses, are Magical).

Your monorail construction numbers are indeed whopping big. But the numbers were smaller, the last time this was too expensive; smaller still, the time before that; smaller still, the time before that... and all the way back to... wow, who were those guys before Eisner?

Tyler, a lot of frustration is directed not at Disney employees for doing the best they can with what they've got, but at Disney(c), for its lack of vision, creativity, and sense of what contributes to the guests' Disney Magic; over a decade or more. It's hard to swallow the "it's the economy, stupid" defense more on the basis of its position at the end of a long line of such defenses than any invalidity of the claim, itself. So this time their alibi pans out, to a degree... I assure you, the need will be greater and the numbers more whopping, the next time we have this discussion.

-WFH

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, a few of your statements from your last post should be emphasized:

...but I propose that Disney look beyond monorails (or importantly at least the existing type of monorails) to created a new solution to transportation.

You know I place more value on the Monorail than you do, but still, I absolutely agree with this statement.

During this process, many ideas like subways and Skytrans will probably be shot down. But, surely something is on the logisitical horizon that could be designed to address Disney's somewhat unique transporation needs.

Yes.

And, if there isn't, then they need to take what they have, whether it be boat, bus, monorail, tram, trolley car, or whatever, and "re-create" it to make the experience of travelling to the magical destination itself magical.

I doubt that there isn't anything out there, but if that turns out to be the case, yes, I agree.

Think unique when the same ole same seems the only way.

Absolutely, never settle. Let the "other guys" do that.

 

[raidermatt]

Looks like I could have saved myself some time, and some cutting/pasting by waiting for the Head's post.

Well said, every word.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Just a quick comment to DK....Just as the Monorail is not the only form of transportation in the MK area, it would not have to be the only form of transportation elsewhere.

As I've said before, the solution does not have to be just the Monorail. Furhter, it doesn't even HAVE to include the Monorail.

Matt, I'm not saying their aren't shortfalls to the current system. There are things that could be, should be, improved. However, I don't think monorails are a practical part of the solution. It doesn't appear you are sold on the fact that they are either.

Your monorail construction numbers are indeed whopping big. But the numbers were smaller, the last time this was too expensive; smaller still, the time before that; smaller still, the time before that... and all the way back to... wow, who were those guys before Eisner?

It doesn't matter if Disney spent 100m in 1986 dollars, another 100m in 1990 dollars, 100m in 1995 dollars, etc. each time they had to make an addition to the monorail system, Disney still would have spent 1billion inflation adjusted 2003 dollars, and for what? The ABC of transportation systems? It is so easy to sit back now and say Disney should have put in a monorail from the beginning, but boy how we'd criticize if they had spent all that money and we were no better off, or (gasp) worse off, than we are today. I'm of the opinion that that money would have been a waste and we should be glad they didn't spend it. So the magical resort wide monorail was the one go/ABC/Family Channel/Pick your favorite big mistake that Disney didn't make. Of course, that doesn't mean Disney should not have spent some of that money on other transportation solutions. Again, I'm not saying that Disney couldn't have done things over the years to make certain aspects of the transportation system more efficient and magical, but I'm not convinced a monorail was ever the right answer.

ps. Are you allowed to ignore someone and post to their threads You're welcome

 

[raidermatt]

However, I don't think monorails are a practical part of the solution. It doesn't appear you are sold on the fact that they are either.

Frankly, none of us have the necessary information to make this call one way or the other.

Its not just the cost of the Monorail, but the cost of alternatives, the cost of the current system, the long term expense, the difficult to quantify benefits of each potential plan....

Further, we would need to know Disney's future plans for the resort, such as a the most likely timetable for other parks, resorts, or other expansions.

We simply do not have enough info to justify either completely writing it off or whole-heartedly endorsing it.

My opinion is that it could legitimately play a part in the new system whatever it maybe, even if that only included extensions to MGM and DD. But its not like I'd sign my name to it based on the info I have, even if somebody gave me the authority. But I woudn't kill it either.

It doesn't matter if Disney spent 100m in 1986 dollars, another 100m in 1990 dollars, 100m in 1995 dollars, etc. each time they had to make an addition to the monorail system, Disney still would have spent 1billion inflation adjusted 2003 dollars, and for what? The ABC of transportation systems?

C'mon...use one VERY questionable investment to prove another unrelated investment would be a poor choice? Further, a little perspective, please. I don't remember what ABC cost, but Fox Family was $5.2 billion.

Again, I'm not saying that Disney couldn't have done things over the years to make certain aspects of the transportation system more efficient and magical, but I'm not convinced a monorail was ever the right answer.

You shouldn't be. Again, we don't have the info necessary to make that kind of blanket call, in EITHER direction.

Of course, that doesn't mean Disney should not have spent some of that money on other transportation solutions.

And really, that's all that matters isn't it? Because of this, we are left to debate whether A, B or C would have been best, when the reality is we get none of the above.

 

[DisneyKidds]

use one VERY questionable investment to prove another unrelated investment would be a poor choice?

No, I'm not using one to prove another. I am convinced a resort wide monorail would have been a mistake. I am just pointing out that it would have been another in a long line. Think of how we rail on the investments made in ABC, go, Fox Family (all colossal failures) - just insert Resort Wide Monorail and we'd be having the same old discussion, talking about the strategic mistake they made that prevented them from implementing truely efficient transportation.

We simply do not have enough info to justify either completely writing it off or whole-heartedly endorsing it.

But we do, apparently, have enough info to deternmine that the only reason Disney didn't do it was because they were/are too cheap .

Its not just the cost of the Monorail, but the cost of alternatives, the cost of the current system, the long term expense, the difficult to quantify benefits of each potential plan....

Further, we would need to know Disney's future plans for the resort, such as a the most likely timetable for other parks, resorts, or other expansions.

Guess what. There are people who had all this info, and they decided that the monorail wasn't worth doing. Oh, I forget, that can't be the answer - it HAD to have been $$$$$$$.

Because of this, we are left to debate whether A, B or C would have been best, when the reality is we get none of the above.

True. However, maybe one of those alternatives we consider should be pretty close to what we have today (just with better resort to resort options ) - have you even considered that?

 

[rwodonnell]

Hello all -

This is an interesting thread to me, I'm usually more of a lurker on the DISboards.

We drive to WDW, so we have our car, and still we use the WDW transportation rather than drive around. For one, I'm tired of driving and two, strapping 3 kids into car seats every time gets old. Plus, they enjoy the various things, even the buses. (Are there really 2 "s"s in busses?)

Also, in our last trip, I think we had Tyler as a driver, and he was hysterical! Unfortunately, we only were on his bus once, but he made it a very memorable trip, with little witty sayings, jokes and fun facts. It was great!

All this got me thinking about an easy way to make the current system more "magical" (I for one would rather see Disney spend money on a 5th park, perhaps a thrill park, because I'm into that kind of stuff more). So in the interest of making the current system more "magical" for the least amount of money, I came up with these less grandeous ideas:

• Hire more drivers like Tyler. Make the ride more like the Jungle Cruise, and less like a city bus experience.
• Put characters on the buses! Of course, this could lead to over-crowding! And I don't know how much it costs to have someone dressed in character...
• Theme each bus according to its destination. Animal Kingdom buses look like safari buses, Epcot's maybe like rockets, Magic Kingdoms maybe like, I dunno, various rides (i.e. flumes, haunted manion cars, etc.) Of course this kind of limits the bus's reusability, so....
• Instead of theming the buses by destination, theme them after a character, sort of like the Stars in Motorcars parade.

I realize this thread was supposed to be about the monorail, but like I said, I think a lot of guests would be pretty happy if they just made the buses a little more magical. I really liked scoop's idea of the double-decker! Maybe my suggestions are no more practical, I don't know.

 

[raidermatt]

I am convinced a resort wide monorail would have been a mistake.

How? Based on your assumption that someone at Disney completely studied the plan and shot it down? Why is it that with such a long line of bad decisions, you have faith that they made the right one here?

just insert Resort Wide Monorail and we'd be having the same old discussion, talking about the strategic mistake they made that prevented them from implementing truely efficient transportation.

A common argument from Disney Defenders.... "If they had done A, it wouldn't have worked and we'd be complaining." A self-fullfilling argument. I can only agree that we'd be complaining if I accept your assumption that it would have been a bad move. Further, it ignores that they chose B, C, or none of the above, and THAT is not working.

But we do, apparently, have enough info to deternmine that the only reason Disney didn't do it was because they were/are too cheap .

No, we just have a pattern of reluctance to invest where there is no DIRECT and easy to identify revenue stream.

Guess what. There are people who had all this info, and they decided that the monorail wasn't worth doing. Oh, I forget, that can't be the answer - it HAD to have been $$$$$$$.

Worth what? By definition, if they determined it wasn't worth doing, that means it was a $$$$$ based decision, i.e. it wasn't WORTH the $$$$$. Do you think they would have said no if it were free?

But that alone is not the problem. The problem is you are trusting the decision-makers at Disney. These are the same decision-makers who made the long list of bad decisions you mentioned.

Why does that convince you?

However, maybe one of those alternatives we consider should be pretty close to what we have today (just with better resort to resort options ) - have you even considered that?

Yes, I have considered it. Based on the philosophy that EVERYTHING is a part of the show, and the driving force behind WDW is to provide a unique family entertainment experience, what we have today, even with resort to resort busses, falls short.

Of course, if you do not subscribe to this philosophy of what WDW should be (and therefore what would be the most profitable in the long term), you may disagree.

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, hotels aren't unique either.

I don't know where you are finding all these Monorails, but they are not covering the country. Further, the experience Disney provides on a Monorail, with elevated views of WDW, is very unique when compared to Monorails that you apparently see on every street corner.

Very few people travel or commute by boat.

Its all relative, but boats and moreso Monorails are far MORE unique than busses.

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, you've taken a phrase like "unique entertainment experience" and taken it to mean literally unique, period.

The existence of a monorail in a shopping mall in Michigan does not negate their value as a unique experience in WDW.

True, it is not "as unique" as it once was. But the Monorail combined with WDW views, and experiences like riding through the Contemporary, is still a unique entertainment experience.

The point is that the live or death of future monorails shouldn't be an issue of "uniqueness' not when you have the things at shopping malls and airports these days.

Its not as simple as being "unique". As I said, the Monorail experience as it exists at WDW remains unique. I really can't see how you can say that thing at the airport detracts from the WDW Monorail experience.

There simply aren't Monorails all over the country (and that is not sarcasm), and further, very few of the ones that do exist provide anything close to a WDW experience.

On this one, it appears that at least a little nostalgia is driving the call for more monorail expansion because they certainly don't represent the unique or cutting-edge transporation technology they once did.

I'm sure there is a bit of nostalgia, but regardless, just like boats, an expanded monorail has the potential to be a part of a successful transportation plan.

Thus, the answer remains: Find new options or "recreate" existing options.

Sure, and one of those existing options is the Monorail.


Once again...I am not saying an expanded Monorail IS the answer, or even a part of the answer. I'm only saying that it cannot be written off just because Disney decided not to execute it, or because its not as cutting edge as it once was.

One thing is for sure, and that is that when it comes to being Magical and unique, it ranks ahead of the busses without a doubt.

 

[DisneyKidds]

How? Based on your assumption that someone at Disney completely studied the plan and shot it down?

Nope. Based on 10 years of using Disney transportation. Based on what transportation infrastucture knowledge I've been able to garner by working in the biz. By using a bit of guest point of view common sense. The fact that a whole host of professionals likely concluded it wasn't the best idea is only icing on the cake.

I have to ask, have you ridden the MK resort monorail during peak morning ridership? I'll point it out again. 3 Resorts, 1 park, SRO for 5 to 20 minutes. The number of rooms at the 3 monorail resorts combined is a drop in the bucket compared to all the other rooms that would be taxing the same monorail line in any expansion scenario. 15x the number of people, 3x the distance - even if they ran 10x the number of trains (which wouldn't work either) it just doesn't add up.

I'm only saying that it cannot be written off just because Disney decided not to execute it, or because its not as cutting edge as it once was.

I agree, but these aren't the reasons I believe a monorail isn't the answer. If you have been reading along you'd realize that. Again, the fact that people who invested a heck of a lot more time than I have saw fit to write it off is only a bit of confirmation.

Why is it that with such a long line of bad decisions, you have faith that they made the right one here?

You know all about those investment picking experiments. You know, monkeys throwing darts that outpick the "experts". Maybe the no monorail decision was a lucky dart . Seriously, you can't get them all wrong. Furthermore, back when such decisions were likely made, ME still had the right people around him and Disney was still making good decisions despite his ineptitude.

Further, it ignores that they chose B, C, or none of the above, and THAT is not working.

And this is undisputed fact because a bunch of people, from one of several divided camps, on an internet bulletin board don't like it? The current system may not be perfect, but I'd hardly say it isn't working. Maybe I'll throw out a poll or two to see what a wider cross section of DISers think.

Worth what? By definition, if they determined it wasn't worth doing, that means it was a $$$$$ based decision, i.e. it wasn't WORTH the $$$$$.

There we go - back to $$$$$$. There are a lot of things that have worth besides $$$$$ (but if you believe otherwise it might explain why everything always comes back to that ). Maybe they determined it wasn't worth the effort, the time spent, the upheaval and construction mess created, to build something that wouldn't improve a thing.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Fixed rail is much cheaper than busses.

Im not so sure I agree... One monorail costs $25m to purchase. 4 busses, the equivilent, costs a little over $1m. Monorail maintenance is quite a bit more expensive than the bus. Fixed guideway systems (at Disney at least) require a host/hostess at every station. So right there, it could be the same, if not more manpower. And the electricity costs more than the diesel fuel.

Originally posted by raidermatt
What an intresting viewpoint... Other than not riding the bus, what other options do the SRO folks have?

You may always wait for the next bus. You may not like that option, but it exists. Same with the monorail. Happens all the time.

Originally posted by raidermatt
I have no doubt that there are exagerrations, but to say that 95% are GROSSLY exaggerated or COMPLETE fabrications is just not true. While I don't work in Disney's transportation department, I have analyzed many of these types of situations as they relate to customer perception, employee perception and reality. Invariably, the reality lies between the two.

As it stands right now, we use computerized dispatching which monitors dispatching frequency. In addition, we also have host/hostesses at key locations to monitor the arrival of busses. Our typical statistics for "On Time" busses is in the 95-100% range. These are facts, with proven data. Not saying that a bus might not run a bit late... there's that 5% that do run over the 20 minute interval mark. However, there are also the days where we do run at 100% efficiency.

Originally posted by raidermatt
Let's get beyond this right from the start. Most are well aware of WDW's status as a BUSINESS.

Then would you agree that it is foolish to invest one billion dollars in a system that might not solve the problems like we want, and has no chance of ever producing any form of noticable return. If Disney is going to invest that much money into something, they're gonna make gosh darned sure that it does what they want it to do.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
The fact is that there are two distinct transportation needs at WDW. Enormous instantaneous load routed to/from relatively few destinations during park open/close, and light instantaneous load routed anywhere on property all day.

Actually... in the morning... we go from currently 19 resorts, with 36 different bus stops to 4 heavy traffic destinations (theme parks), and 4 minor destinations (DTD & Water parks). All compressed within a three hour period.

At night... we have extreme heavy traffic going from four major locations to 19 resorts, with 36 different stops, compressed within a 90 minute period. Plus, medium heavy traffic going in the opposite direction... from the 36 stops to one location... DTD.

One thing you have to be careful of when thinking about a mass transit system is the route it will take, and the traffic pattern that it will have. Too many separate lines will be cluttered and confusing. Too many stops within a line, and the train will fill up prematurely. Hence why we really need a system that is extremely flexible. If there is a surge in guest demand for one area, we need to be able to react.

The thing about Disney is that we are very unlike any major transit system out there. Our needs are quite different. While a fixed guideway system might work GREAT for the Las Vegas strip... it might not have the same benefits here at Disney.

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
(and by the way, lest one take me for a fuddy-duddy who doesn't want to greet the new millenium, I would welcome some Disney-designed or Disney-backed alternative mode of transporatation... that kind of innovation is a Disney tradition, too. I just don't see how busses, even souped-up busses, are Magical).

There are other options out there, one of which I would like to see Disney take a look at. It's simmilar to a fixed guideway system... but without the fixed guideway. It's a neat system, however, I fear that it may be confused with "a souped up bus." More on that later.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Plus, they enjoy the various things, even the buses. (Are there really 2 "s"s in busses?)

According to the dictionary, it is acceptable to use either buses or busses.

Originally posted by rwodonnell
Also, in our last trip, I think we had Tyler as a driver, and he was hysterical! Unfortunately, we only were on his bus once, but he made it a very memorable trip, with little witty sayings, jokes and fun facts. It was great!

I'm glad you enjoyed your ride... Creating "Magic In Motion" is my job, and I do enjoy it. There are many, many other drivers out there who also do things like me... some tell jokes, others sing, others do trivia games.

Originally posted by rwodonnell

• Put characters on the buses! Of course, this could lead to over-crowding! And I don't know how much it costs to have someone dressed in character...

*sigh* You'd be surprised how expensive it is. Even though we're the same company, they still charge us rack rate. As it stands right now, we do have Chip, Dale, and Pluto ride the MK Ferryboat in the mornings. It's a great thing. I've also had Pluto take a ride with me on the Monorail... that was a blast. Unfortunetly, due to safety reasons, having them on the buses might not be the best idea.

Originally posted by rwodonnell

• Theme each bus according to its destination. Animal Kingdom buses look like safari buses, Epcot's maybe like rockets, Magic Kingdoms maybe like, I dunno, various rides (i.e. flumes, haunted manion cars, etc.) Of course this kind of limits the bus's reusability, so....
• Instead of theming the buses by destination, theme them after a character, sort of like the Stars in Motorcars parade.

Indeed, a great idea. You may have noticed some LYNX busses and other various charter busses around property have been wrapped with Disney themed advertisements. A similar idea had been tossed around with Disney execs, however, our legal department shot them right down. You'd be surprised at the things they will not let us have. (And usually for the most stupid of reasons)

On our new low floor buses, there are two round tail lights on the very top... they serve as additional brake lights and turn signals. On the prototype bus we recieved, they were turned into Mickey Ears. Cute, right? Well... some religious groups felt they made Mickey look demonic... so that was no longer allowed to go on the rest of the new buses.

Characters are not allowed to be depicted on any of our guest buses, in the case that a bus might get hit right where the character is. We're not even allowed to have Mickey Mouse on the Monorail Co-Pilot licenses.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

I mentioned something earlier about a fixed guideway system that didn't use a fixed guideway... Well, here's some more information. It's called BRT... Bus Rapid Transit. It uses a vehicle that is similarly looking to a light rail/tram type vehicle, but rides on rubber tires, like a bus. These vehicles can be powered by overhead wires, electric traction motors, Hybrid engines, Alternate fuel engines, or traditional diesel engines.

One that comes to mind for it's uniqueness is the Irisbus CiViS. The Civis is an Optically Guided BRT vehicle. While there is a driver who does have a steering wheel... the Civis typically guides itself, via optical cameras.

The Civis can drive on standard roads, or drive on special BRT lanes which are designed specifically for the vehicle.

http://www.busride.com/2002/08/Letter_from_Europe.asp
http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=163
http://www.siemens-ts.com/pagesUS/produits/Civis.htm

Some pictures:

 

[rwodonnell]

Tyler, after I posted, I asked the rest of my family what the name of the driver was that we enjoyed so much. Sorry to say, none of them remembered, but I had thought I remembered it was "Tyler". My oldest son, 7, who has a great memory though, did remember a joke: "it wasn't my fault, or the bus's fault... it was the asphalt." Was that you?

We stayed at the CBR, and rode the buses everywhere. There may well be many who try to do as you do, but we never ran across any others really. They were courteous, of course, but most never really spoke at all that I can remember.

By the way, as long as I'm babbling here, we never really had any problem at all using the buses, and found them to be very convenient, and my impression is that the CBR is not the most ideal resort, since there are so many stops. Still, our experience was good. The biggest problem for us was getting to the Boardwalk, since it doesn't really seem to be a destination directly from the resorts. We ended up taking the bus to MGM and a water shuttle from there (mostly in order to do a water shuttle with the kids).