DCA - World of Color Accessibility Rant

[PatMcDuck]

Just to say a couple of things.

Sadly, the view of World of Color is obstructed for 75% of the audience. Unless you are on the railing, or maybe on the steps, you have a problem. The issue of kids on parents shoulders is just part of the issue. But, let me say, it is a HUGE problem at WoC and elsewhere, to a lesser degree. No one can see over or around a 8-9 foot human. I would love to hear Disney announce a rule against it, just as the show is to begin, like with the 5 minute warning.....

I have 2 adult kids with serious health conditions, so I sympathize with the entire situation. (one in a wheelchair at the parks and the other has severe knee problems[getting replacements at age 19 in August]) I have seen WoC a couple of times, on a trip without these kids. And I noticed people struggling with the long wait for the show, esp. senior citizens. They can't sit on the ground for part of the wait, like most guests were doing until it got too crowded. One pair asked for help finally, and were directed back to the benches near the back. The appealed for their entire party to be able to go, but they were in a group of 10 so that was not allowed.

I guess my point is that this show is a difficult thing for all, esp. the disabled of course, and the view is only "good" for a small % of guests. I don't really see what Disney can do about it, to be honest. Having benches in front of all the levels does not seem fair to me. They would have to be in the front of each level to be in compliance?

 

[SueM in MN]

I don't know that Fantasmic is considered a "movie theater". It would be considered stadium style. But if I want to sit in the middle of the theater and have mobility issues, I don't see how WDW can get me to that seat without major changes. WDW would have to modify several "theaters" to provide a "variety" of seating options. And I don't know that is intent of the law.

I don't have time to write much, but Fantastic at WDW does have seating in several areas. Although the majority is in the rear, they also have a few wheelchair spots in the very front. There is a path to the very far left of the theater, as you face the stage. The far right area, where the dinner show seats are located, is ramped all the way from the back to the front of the theater. I have seen guests with wheelchairs and ECVs transfer to the aisle seats in that area. So, they do have seats that are accessible in a variety of areas.

Other theaters at WDW with accessible seating in places besides the back include:
Lights, Motors, Action at the Studio
Beauty and the Beast at the Studio
Indiana Jones Stunt Spectacular at the Studio

Turtle Talk at Epcot
Reflections of China at Epcot
O Canada at Epcot

Flights of Wonder at Animal Kingdom
Finding Nemo the Musical

Most of the others which do not have seating in various areas are older and have sloped floors which don't fit the ADA guidelines for a safe slope for guests using mobility devices. Before the 1991 guidelines came out, they actually allowed guests with wheelchairs to park on the edges of the aisles and go all the way to the front. After the 1991 guidelines, they could no longer do that.
This happened at American Adventure and at Impressions de France, both in Epcot.

There are several other theaters that were built before 1991 and updated to meet the 1991 guidelines. My understanding of the ADA construction guidelines is that a facility built after 1991 is in what they call a 'safe haven' and needs to meet the guidelines that were in existence at the time it was built. If they do remodeling that is more than cosmetic or theming, they do have to bring it up to the current standards. If they don't remodel, they don't have to come up to the current standards (unless the new guidelines changed compared to the last update of the guidelines).

The stadium seating issue came up because stadium seating became popular for movie theaters. Most theaters had slightly sloped floors and guests with wheelchairs could park next to any aisle seat. When they renovated to stadium seating, they built bleachers with stairs. In some of the theaters in my area, they designated a few seats in the very first row to be the wheelchair seats. In one theater, this meant the seats were less than 10 feet from the screen ( in the rows where guests usually chose NOT to sit in). The view was not equivalent and the guests in that front row had to sit in uncomfortable positions just to see.

I am not sure how the WOC fits in since they don't have seating and are not a ticketed event. But, at very least, they took something that was working for guests with disabilities and turned it into something that does not appear to give the access that had been present.

Edited to add - I guess it got pretty long, even thought I didn't have time!

 

[cmwade77]

Ok, let me see if I can clarify this.....

1. Everyone must be standing (aside from those in wheelchairs and on the benches)
2. The benches where people are sitting are being placed behind the people that are standing, this isn't rocket science to figure out that they will not be able to see.
3. Everyone must have a fastpass (ticket) to use the viewing area, which while free, still means it's a ticketed event.
4. The theater was built in 2010, which means the 2010 standards apply, these encompass and expand on the 1991 standards.

You cannot simply place the benches in the back...placing benches in the front of each section would be perfectly fair, as they would be sitting, meaning they would not be blocking the view of people behind them. That being said, they had not done this previously (although it would have made sense to do so), they simply had a designated wheel chair viewing area for each tier in each section (aside from the very bottom for safety reasons, because it becomes very slippery down there, so that makes sense). This designated area was done in a way that it did not interfere with other people's viewing and provided the best possible view for the wheelchair seating.

As for where I am reading the requirements, it takes a bit of searching around, unfortunately, I didn't bookmark everything, but it does indeed apply here, again, not even Disney is arguing that point, simply stating that this is easier for them to follow this system. You will notice in the video that she never says it doesn't apply, I forget if she said she wasn't aware of all ADA standards or if that was her boss.

Again, the way it was had worked for over a year and worked quite well, so there was no need to make the change, other than to make things easier for the CMs.

Edit: I am editing this to add information about how World of Color works, so that those that do not know how it works can understand.

In order to enter the viewing area (the only area that you can truly see World of Color properly), you must have a fastpass (which would be a ticket), while these are free, they are still a ticket. You can obtain a ticket in a few ways:

1. You can obtain one from the fastpass machines by Grizzly River Run until they run out, they do not give seperate ones for those that need special assistance (although, since this is a ticket, they should based on the posted rules, you are "purchasing" a ticket by putting in your pass and you can only get one per day per admission ticket.
2. You can buy a picnic lunch.
3. You can get preferred viewing, which is truly the best viewing for the show, but has no accessible viewing designated specifically for this section, by purchasing a dinner package at Ariel's Grotto or Wine Country Trattoria.

You then show up to the viewing area at the designated time and enter the appropriate section. They ask that people not line up early, but they always do and while they will allow people in wheelchairs to sit anywhere in the viewing area, if they are behind people that are standing they cannot possibly see at all, so they need to get there early enough to be first in line, the problem is that even if they are first in line, people push and shove them out of the way to a point that they cannot get up next to the railing, even though others could see over them quite easily. So the easy thing to do is let those in wheelchairs in early, but there are those like my wife (and on some days myself, other days are better) that cannot stand for the entire show, but do not need a wheelchair. Again, they had a system that addressed this properly and have got rid of it to make it easier on the CMs, which I think is why I am so frustrated with this setup, it is not being done with needs of anyone but the CMs being kept in mind.

 

[SueM in MN]

The new standards were published in the Federal Register in September 2010.
This is a quote from the ADA website about compliance with the new standard:
"2010 STANDARDS
FOR PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS AND COMMERCIAL FACILITIES: TITLE III

Public accommodations and commercial facilities must follow the requirements of the 2010 Standards, including both the Title III regulations at 28 CFR part 36, subpart D; and the 2004 ADAAG at 36 CFR part 1191, appendices B and D.*

In the few places where requirements between the two differ, the requirements of 28 CFR part 36, subpart D prevail.*

Compliance Date for Title III

The compliance date for the 2010 Standards for new construction and alterations is determined by:

the date the last application for a building permit or permit extension is certified to be complete by a State, county, or local government;
the date the last application for a building permit or permit extension is received by a State, county, or local government, where the government does not certify the completion of applications; or*
the start of physical construction or alteration, if no permit is required.*
If that date is on or after March 15, 2012, then new construction and alterations must comply with the 2010 Standards. *If that date is on or after September 15, 2010, and before March 15, 2012, then new construction and alterations must comply with either the 1991 or the 2010 Standards."

This is a link to that page:
http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm#titleIII

I didn't do an exhaustive search, but didn't find anything that said the updated standards would apply to anything constructed anytime in 2010. It would not make sense to require that, since the final standards were not published until Sept 2010 and things constructed earlier in 2010 might have been planned before even any draft standards were published.

I would not base a complaint about WOC on not meeting that standard, but about the seating having changed from something that worked for you to something that blocked your view.

I am also not clear that the stadium seating bit applies at all if the only seats are few and far between ( I am not saying it is fair to change to a way that blocks view of seated guests). The stadium standards talk about the placement of seats in front of the wheelchair spots. I understand the line of sight not allowed to be blocked by guests who get up during the show in the standards, but placement of seats does allow guests in wheelchairs to have a view between the guests in front of them. I'm not sure exactly how that applies if there are no seats in front. With no seats, there is not a way to 'contain' the guests in front to a specific spot.

It doesn't matter if the CM or even the supervisor for the area understand or know what the ADA standards are. They are not the ones setting policy, their responsibility is to follow policy set by people higher up.
If the policy was truly changed for 'staff convenience', that would not be allowed. The CM you talked to may very well not know the real reason for any change.
Safety would be a legitimate reason for changing the way things are done and there may be some incident that the change was made in response to. That would be allowed.

So, I guess what I'm saying is not to go in with guns blazing about rights being abused. I would start out with the facts about how the recent changes made it more difficult for you and your family to enjoy the show. I would ask for an explanation of why it was changed and possibly make some suggestions to 'fix' the situation.

 

[Mom2Christina]

It's the early am hours and I am not awake yet but from what I am reading here, they have moved the handicapped benches and people now stand in front of those, therefore blocking a good percentage of the show. This is disturbing. I am very upset to hear this as we are going to be spending an obscene amount of money to enjoy Disney and would like to enjoy the tire thing, just not parts! GRRRRR.

Off topic-please see a post I will post here shortly n the disABILITIES folder about what I have heard was just going on for a few days at Space Mountain in regard to the handicapped and them being turned away if they did not have a "reservation". I would love your feedback on this!

 

[disney david]

Sue right woc wouldn't fit because it mostly standing it dosent have 300 seat I may be wrong never seen the show or the new set up. So I think Disney won't get in trouble if you write to Disney may he they will repose thu made a mistake and fix it. I am sure they didn't do it to cause any one problems they might have thought it was easier for the cms but not trying to mare it bad for people in wheel chairs. I don't think their any intent on Disney part to break the law I do applaused you on writing Disney first giving them a chance to fix it. I also think that Disney to big a place foe the Ada not catch them they advertise the woc it been open awhile so I am sure if it was in violation the Ada and doj would have done something about it.

 

[livndisney]

I don't have time to write much, but Fantastic at WDW does have seating in several areas. Although the majority is in the rear, they also have a few wheelchair spots in the very front. There is a path to the very far left of the theater, as you face the stage. The far right area, where the dinner show seats are located, is ramped all the way from the back to the front of the theater. I have seen guests with wheelchairs and ECVs transfer to the aisle seats in that area. So, they do have seats that are accessible in a variety of areas.

Other theaters at WDW with accessible seating in places besides the back include:
Lights, Motors, Action at the Studio
Beauty and the Beast at the Studio
Indiana Jones Stunt Spectacular at the Studio

Turtle Talk at Epcot
Reflections of China at Epcot
O Canada at Epcot

Flights of Wonder at Animal Kingdom
Finding Nemo the Musical

Most of the others which do not have seating in various areas are older and have sloped floors which don't fit the ADA guidelines for a safe slope for guests using mobility devices. Before the 1991 guidelines came out, they actually allowed guests with wheelchairs to park on the edges of the aisles and go all the way to the front. After the 1991 guidelines, they could no longer do that.
This happened at American Adventure and at Impressions de France, both in Epcot.

There are several other theaters that were built before 1991 and updated to meet the 1991 guidelines. My understanding of the ADA construction guidelines is that a facility built after 1991 is in what they call a 'safe haven' and needs to meet the guidelines that were in existence at the time it was built. If they do remodeling that is more than cosmetic or theming, they do have to bring it up to the current standards. If they don't remodel, they don't have to come up to the current standards (unless the new guidelines changed compared to the last update of the guidelines).

The stadium seating issue came up because stadium seating became popular for movie theaters. Most theaters had slightly sloped floors and guests with wheelchairs could park next to any aisle seat. When they renovated to stadium seating, they built bleachers with stairs. In some of the theaters in my area, they designated a few seats in the very first row to be the wheelchair seats. In one theater, this meant the seats were less than 10 feet from the screen ( in the rows where guests usually chose NOT to sit in). The view was not equivalent and the guests in that front row had to sit in uncomfortable positions just to see.

I am not sure how the WOC fits in since they don't have seating and are not a ticketed event. But, at very least, they took something that was working for guests with disabilities and turned it into something that does not appear to give the access that had been present.

Edited to add - I guess it got pretty long, even thought I didn't have time!

My point in mentioning the various shows in WDW is no matter the show, I don't have my choice of handicapped seating. There may be random shows with a few wheelchair spots, but nothing like the OP is suggesting.
Those with other disabilities (not in a wheelchair), do not have access to anything like "ada seating".

 

[SueM in MN]

My point in mentioning the various shows in WDW is no matter the show, I don't have my choice of handicapped seating. There may be random shows with a few wheelchair spots, but nothing like the OP is suggesting.
Those with other disabilities (not in a wheelchair), do not have access to anything like "ada seating".

Agree with your point.

My point in posting was that the OP had posted the WDW's Fantasmic and other shows were out of compliance with the ADA because they only had accessible spots at the rear.
I listed those attractions to show that WDW does have spots in more than the rear.

I actually forgot one that also does - Flights of Wonder at AK. That one is Ramped all the way from the front to the rear, so guests without wheelchairs who can't climb steps could choose any eat.

 

[livndisney]

Agree with your point.

My point in posting was that the OP had posted the WDW's Fantasmic and other shows were out of compliance with the ADA because they only had accessible spots at the rear.
I listed those attractions to show that WDW does have spots in more than the rear.

I actually forgot one that also does - Flights of Wonder at AK. That one is Ramped all the way from the front to the rear, so guests without wheelchairs who can't climb steps could choose any eat.

I thought that Flights of Wonder was ramped to the front, but it has been so long since I saw it I was not sure LOL.

Sue, any thoughts on how this "new" ruling will affect WDW going forward? Do you read the law as stating shows at WDW must offer ADA seating in all areas (provided they are built or modified after 91)?

 

[PatMcDuck]

"placing benches in the front of each section would be perfectly fair, as they would be sitting, meaning they would not be blocking the view of people behind them."

Just to say, I disagree with this, because guests in wheelchairs usually come with other friends and family members who are not in wheelchairs. And of course, they want to watch the show together, so there would be a problem allowing guests in wheelchairs, and their parties, to have the front railing spots on each level. It is the same problem that occurs when guests push their small (short) children in front of adults at WoC and parades, etc. First it is the little ones, then the older siblings, and then Mom and Dad.... But having benches in the back of any level makes no sense at all, and I did not see any benches like that when I was there in May. (I would have noticed, because people would likely have been standing on them. )

It does seem reasonable to have a small section on each level available, with a larger area in back. But there is no getting around the fact that you have to be there just as they open up the WoC seating for guests to wait, and this wait will be about 90 minutes from what I remember. It is a very long wait for many guests for various reasons. Babies were screaming, seniors were struggling, and they have no pre show entertainment to at least distract you.

I am disappointed that the WoC is so poorly designed. What a mess. I want to take my son to see this show someday, and I dread trying to find some good location for him to see it from his chair. (he uses a Convaid chair).

I am not versed in the actual laws, these are just my observations.

 

[SueM in MN]

I thought that Flights of Wonder was ramped to the front, but it has been so long since I saw it I was not sure LOL.

Sue, any thoughts on how this "new" ruling will affect WDW going forward? Do you read the law as stating shows at WDW must offer ADA seating in all areas (provided they are built or modified after 91)?

Most attractions at WDW do have seating in several places.
The ones that don't are built in a way that would make it very difficult to add seats in places other than the ones that are in the very front and very back. There is a clause that addresses situations where it would not be possible to add seating in various other places.
The updates to Guidelines since 1991 said that facilities had to meet the guidelines in effect at the time the facility was built or modified.

I have not seen any ruling that would change that.

 

[livndisney]

Most attractions at WDW do have seating in several places.
The ones that don't are built in a way that would make it very difficult to add seats in places other than the ones that are in the very front and very back. There is a clause that addresses situations where it would not be possible to add seating in various other places.
The updates to Guidelines since 1991 said that facilities had to meet the guidelines in effect at the time the facility was built or modified.

I have not seen any ruling that would change that.

That is what I thought, but wanted to double check with what you saw.

 

[cmwade77]

Please note that benches at the front of each section could work, because there are enough benches available to them that they could provide benches for those in parties with wheel chairs and those that cannot stand for the length of the show. The benches could be spaced out to allow wheel chairs to be placed next to them. That being said, even restoring the old wheelchair sections would be good, not as good, but acceptable.

 

[livndisney]

Please note that benches at the front of each section could work, because there are enough benches available to them that they could provide benches for those in parties with wheel chairs and those that cannot stand for the length of the show. The benches could be spaced out to allow wheel chairs to be placed next to them. That being said, even restoring the old wheelchair sections would be good, not as good, but acceptable.

Forgive me, but if DL does not provide seating for all, providing benches for your party is not "equal" access. I know at WDW the "answer" for mobility issues is to rent a wheelchair/ecv. So if I understand this correctly DL does not have to provide benches at all so the location is not a "compliance" issue.
All they need to do is provide a limited number of wheelchair spaces. Which it sounds like the do? So a solution could be for your wife to rent a wheelchair or even bring a rollator(?) to have a seat where she needs it. Even placing benches in front of all the sections for the disabled is not "equal", as benches would not work for everyone.

I do understand that they used to provide benches that made you happy, and as I said moving them for CM convience is not a great idea. But often things that "work" for us change as do the accomidations provided. I do hope you find a solution that works for your party.

 

[LilyWDW]

Most attractions at WDW do have seating in several places.
The ones that don't are built in a way that would make it very difficult to add seats in places other than the ones that are in the very front and very back. There is a clause that addresses situations where it would not be possible to add seating in various other places.
The updates to Guidelines since 1991 said that facilities had to meet the guidelines in effect at the time the facility was built or modified.

I have not seen any ruling that would change that.

This is correct and I have not been made aware of any changes that would require someplace to automatically have to make changes. I am an interior designer/space planner. We deal with ADA all the time. I have not had a chance to look over the newest space changes when it comes to seating and the like (I have been working on an MBA and not practicing right now). However, nothing in the information I can find states with the new ruling, ALL buildings need to automatically become compliant.

The building needs to meet the guidelines set in place at the time the building is constructed. If they then do a significant modification to the building, then they would have to meet any new guidelines now in place. I should note that not all renovations would force this requirement, but only if a specific percentage of the building is being done (I don't have time to find that number at this time, sorry).

I mean, think about it. It would be impossible to force an existing structure to meet any changes in the guidelines every time they changed. It would be a financial hardship for the owners.

So, any NEW construction would have to meet the new guidelines and any significant modifications would force them to have to meet the guidelines. However, if the construction was done BEFORE the guidelines were put in place and they are NOT making significant modifications, then they do NOT have to immediately make changes. They would only be required to meet the requirements from previous.

 

[LilyWDW]

Please note that benches at the front of each section could work, because there are enough benches available to them that they could provide benches for those in parties with wheel chairs and those that cannot stand for the length of the show. The benches could be spaced out to allow wheel chairs to be placed next to them. That being said, even restoring the old wheelchair sections would be good, not as good, but acceptable.

From what I understand is that there is VERY limited seating at this venue. If the venue does not have enough overall seating, then they do NOT have to provide by the guidelines. They do have to provide wheelchair access.

And just because the theater was build in 2010 does not mean it has to meet the guidelines put into place in 2010. There is usually a date that is mentioned as to when structures built after X date must meet all new 2010 guidelines. This would not be previous to the date of release (how can you build something you don't know is needed?).

 

[SueM in MN]

From what I understand is that there is VERY limited seating at this venue. If the venue does not have enough overall seating, then they do NOT have to provide by the guidelines. They do have to provide wheelchair access.

And just because the theater was build in 2010 does not mean it has to meet the guidelines put into place in 2010. There is usually a date that is mentioned as to when structures built after X date must meet all new 2010 guidelines. This would not be previous to the date of release (how can you build something you don't know is needed?).

Thanks for you perspective, Lily.
I didn't think the requirement for benches would apply if there were not enough benches for everyone.

I did find the dates for compliance:

"2010 STANDARDS
FOR PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS AND COMMERCIAL FACILITIES: TITLE III

Public accommodations and commercial facilities must follow the requirements of the 2010 Standards, including both the Title III regulations at 28 CFR part 36, subpart D; and the 2004 ADAAG at 36 CFR part 1191, appendices B and D.*

In the few places where requirements between the two differ, the requirements of 28 CFR part 36, subpart D prevail.*

Compliance Date for Title III

The compliance date for the 2010 Standards for new construction and alterations is determined by:

the date the last application for a building permit or permit extension is certified to be complete by a State, county, or local government;
the date the last application for a building permit or permit extension is received by a State, county, or local government, where the government does not certify the completion of applications; or*
the start of physical construction or alteration, if no permit is required.*
If that date is on or after March 15, 2012, then new construction and alterations must comply with the 2010 Standards. *If that date is on or after September 15, 2010, and before March 15, 2012, then new construction and alterations must comply with either the 1991 or the 2010 Standards."

This is a link to that page:
http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAS...s.htm#titleIII

 

[cmwade77]

Again, the facilities can and do meet the 2010 requirements in and of themselves. In this case they are implementing policies that do not comply, the 2010 standards do state that this is a violation of the standards, even if the facility was built before 2010. There are also other sampler venues (outside Disney) that are being compelled to comply with the new standards, even though some of them were built in the 70's.

 

[livndisney]

Again, the facilities can and do meet the 2010 requirements in and of themselves. In this case they are implementing policies that do not comply, the 2010 standards do state that this is a violation of the standards, even if the facility was built before 2010. There are also other sampler venues (outside Disney) that are being compelled to comply with the new standards, even though some of them were built in the 70's.

I don't think anyone is arguing that locations can choose to comply early, or even to comply when they are not required to. But I think what you are missing is it does not appear that DL is out of complaince for several reasons.

 

[disney david]

So if Disney would remove all the benches at woc and then provide a space with a clear view then they would be in compliance. Don't think the ada can require Disney provide seats. Are these benches moveable or they built into the ground wondering if it makes a difference since they are not fixed seating they are temporary seats for the show. Not trying to find ways disney can get around ada laws.