DCA - World of Color Accessibility Rant

[cmwade77]

Ok, first off, I apologize if this is in the wrong section, please move it if needed.

This is not about if they will allow those with hidden disabilities in the wheelchair sections and such (they did that with no problems), this is about the location of reserved ADA seating.

For those that are unaware, the ADA seating (including benches) used to be vertically dispersed throughout each section (as required under ADA laws as I read them at http://www.nea.gov/resources/accessibility/pubs/NEA-TipSheet.pdf please note that a lot of this is about paid theaters, but I have read elsewhere that when seating is first come first serve, that the sections that say until sold out translate to until al other seats are filled. While a lot of the wording is put in there to add movie theaters with Stadium style seating, these rules have applied to amphitheaters (which the WOC viewing area would be considered)since 1991 ), this system had worked well for over a year.

They have recently (about two weeks ago from what I have been told) moved all reserved ADA seating to the back, including benches. Now all viewing in front of them is standing, many people will place their kids on their shoulders. This means that those sitting can only see about 50% of the show (only the parts up high).

Now they will allow wheelchairs in any section great for those in wheelchairs, but those (such as my wife) who are unable to stand for the entire length of the show, they will have to sit in the very back, which does not provide an equal viewing area.

In all fairness to the lead and manager involved initially they also told us that we would have to go in at the same time as everyone else; however, when we pointed out that the average person will walk on, push out of the way, etc. anyone with special needs (I have seen it happen and had it happened to me, even for me standing for the length of the show is pushing it, but was doable due to the wheelchair and person that had a walker that I was with, as it provided a bit of extra room to maneuver in).

Now that being said, when we inquired as to why this was done, the first lead we spoke with flat out told us that it was for the CMs convenience. My jaw dropped when she said this, but luckily I caught it on video and I have posted it on youtube at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SREvfKTimsI

This is the part that really ticked our group off.

Please pardon the quality, I was not watching my camera while doing this, I simply was holding it so that I could make sure that anything that was said was recorded.

Now what do I want? I simply want them to adhere to ADA laws, which states that ADA spaces must provide spectators with choices of seating
locations and viewing angles that are substantially equivalent to, or
better than, seating for other spectators. Again, these seats must be reserved until all other seats are filled.

So, what can be done? Well, as I say in the comments of my youtube video, I recommend writing an email to Disneyland at https://disneyland.disney.go.com/help/email/

Please note that we had several people in our group with needs, including one recovering from Chemotherapy, one in a wheelchair, one with a walker and two that can't stand for long periods of time. Not once did anyone ever question if any of us truly needed assistance, again, my only issue is with the placement of the reserved areas and the benches to provide equal viewing opportunities as the remainder of the crowd. (I do understand if those viewing areas are full with people that need them by the time I get there, again, it is first come first serve and is how it works for everyone else, as the manager stated not everyone can get the same view, but the point is that they need to offer choices that are the same or beter than what other guests can get and must be reserved until the rest of the viewing area is filled, I do not accept them all being placed in the very back so that it is easier for the cast members).

Ok, so there's my rant of the week, what's everyone else's thought on this?

 

[livndisney]

Ok, first off, I apologize if this is in the wrong section, please move it if needed.

This is not about if they will allow those with hidden disabilities in the wheelchair sections and such (they did that with no problems), this is about the location of reserved ADA seating.

For those that are unaware, the ADA seating (including benches) used to be vertically dispersed throughout each section (as required under ADA laws as I read them at http://www.nea.gov/resources/accessibility/pubs/NEA-TipSheet.pdf please note that a lot of this is about paid theaters, but I have read elsewhere that when seating is first come first serve, that the sections that say until sold out translate to until al other seats are filled. While a lot of the wording is put in there to add movie theaters with Stadium style seating, these rules have applied to amphitheaters (which the WOC viewing area would be considered)since 1991 ), this system had worked well for over a year.

They have recently (about two weeks ago from what I have been told) moved all reserved ADA seating to the back, including benches. Now all viewing in front of them is standing, many people will place their kids on their shoulders. This means that those sitting can only see about 50% of the show (only the parts up high).

Now they will allow wheelchairs in any section great for those in wheelchairs, but those (such as my wife) who are unable to stand for the entire length of the show, they will have to sit in the very back, which does not provide an equal viewing area.

In all fairness to the lead and manager involved initially they also told us that we would have to go in at the same time as everyone else; however, when we pointed out that the average person will walk on, push out of the way, etc. anyone with special needs (I have seen it happen and had it happened to me, even for me standing for the length of the show is pushing it, but was doable due to the wheelchair and person that had a walker that I was with, as it provided a bit of extra room to maneuver in).

Now that being said, when we inquired as to why this was done, the first lead we spoke with flat out told us that it was for the CMs convenience. My jaw dropped when she said this, but luckily I caught it on video and I have posted it on youtube at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SREvfKTimsI

This is the part that really ticked our group off.

Please pardon the quality, I was not watching my camera while doing this, I simply was holding it so that I could make sure that anything that was said was recorded.

Now what do I want? I simply want them to adhere to ADA laws, which states that ADA spaces must provide spectators with choices of seating
locations and viewing angles that are substantially equivalent to, or
better than, seating for other spectators. Again, these seats must be reserved until all other seats are filled.

So, what can be done? Well, as I say in the comments of my youtube video, I recommend writing an email to Disneyland at https://disneyland.disney.go.com/help/email/

Please note that we had several people in our group with needs, including one recovering from Chemotherapy, one in a wheelchair, one with a walker and two that can't stand for long periods of time. Not once did anyone ever question if any of us truly needed assistance, again, my only issue is with the placement of the reserved areas and the benches to provide equal viewing opportunities as the remainder of the crowd. (I do understand if those viewing areas are full with people that need them by the time I get there, again, it is first come first serve and is how it works for everyone else, as the manager stated not everyone can get the same view, but the point is that they need to offer choices that are the same or beter than what other guests can get and must be reserved until the rest of the viewing area is filled, I do not accept them all being placed in the very back so that it is easier for the cast members).

Ok, so there's my rant of the week, what's everyone else's thought on this?

First I understand your frustration. But I am not sure of some of what you are reading. For example I am not aware of any theme park that has to offer me my choice of seating. I know at WDW if I want to see Fantasmic, I need to sit in the back. If I want to see FOTLK I have to sit in the front (which doesn't work for me so I can no longer go to this show). I can't think of a show where I have my choice of seating. Some shows may offer either a front or back depending on availablility. Beauty and the Beast comes to mind as they have front row and back row. If the front is full, the back is the only option.

 

[KPeveler]

This is very disturbing - I will check it out the next time I am in DCA. I require wheelchair seating for a reason, and being told i must sit all the way in the back is unacceptable. If I get a good fastpass, then I expect to be seated in that area.

 

[KPeveler]

First I understand your frustration. But I am not sure of some of what you are reading. For example I am not aware of any theme park that has to offer me my choice of seating. I know at WDW if I want to see Fantasmic, I need to sit in the back. If I want to see FOTLK I have to sit in the front (which doesn't work for me so I can no longer go to this show). I can't think of a show where I have my choice of seating. Some shows may offer either a front or back depending on availablility. Beauty and the Beast comes to mind as they have front row and back row. If the front is full, the back is the only option.

Yes, but these are stadium-type theatres. WOC is tiered into three levels which can stand about 10-12 rows deep of people. Think of it like watching Illuminations. If you are not against the railings, then you have to try to watch over the heads of the people in front of you. This is why they have several big areas for wheelchair-using guests to be able to see.

 

[cmwade77]

Actually, it is a 2010 ruling made it clear that these rules apply to ALL theaters, so technically Fantasmic! at WDW is in violation (provided that the theater was built on or after 1991).

Fantasmic! at DL is not because the viewing area was not substantially modified since before 1991.

World of Color was opened in 2010, so the rules apply to it no matter what (the viewing area was substantially changed in 2010).

The 2010 ruling was intended to mostly make it clear that these rules also apply to movie theaters with stadium seating, but it did make it clear that it applies to all theaters.

Now, if they came and said that it wasn't possible to set things up the way they did from the start, back when the show first openend, I would be more understanding, but it had been setup in a way that complied with these rules and now they aren't, so I have to say that they can and must do so to be compliant with ADA laws.

Again, this is based on the 2010 ruling (although even the 1991 rules state Amphitheaters are included). In addition, the difference with Fantasmic! in Florida is that you still get an unobstructed view, with WOC, you cannot actually see about 50% of the show with the placement that they have chosen (placing in the very back of the viewing area, with people standing in front of you, when you have to sit down)

Also, just because they aren't offering it, doesn't mean they are in compliance with ADA. In addition, if the viewing area was built or last substantially remodeled before 1991, then these rules do not necessarily apply. (changing the show does not count as a substantial remodel, the remodel would mean adding/removing seats, etc.) Also, in theaters built/remodeled from 1991 to present, at least 30% of the aisle seats must be designated transfer seats, just an FYI.

 

[cmwade77]

This is very disturbing - I will check it out the next time I am in DCA. I require wheelchair seating for a reason, and being told i must sit all the way in the back is unacceptable. If I get a good fastpass, then I expect to be seated in that area.

The even more frustrating part is that we had bought the picnic lunches to guarantee us a good FP (Yellow section used to have the best wheel chair seating of any of the sections, with Blue a good second choice).

 

[livndisney]

Actually, it is a 2010 ruling made it clear that these rules apply to ALL theaters, so technically Fantasmic! at WDW is in violation (provided that the theater was built on or after 1991).

Fantasmic! at DL is not because the viewing area was not substantially modified since before 1991.

World of Color was opened in 2010, so the rules apply to it no matter what (the viewing area was substantially changed in 2010).

The 2010 ruling was intended to mostly make it clear that these rules also apply to movie theaters with stadium seating, but it did make it clear that it applies to all theaters.

Now, if they came and said that it wasn't possible to set things up the way they did from the start, back when the show first openend, I would be more understanding, but it had been setup in a way that complied with these rules and now they aren't, so I have to say that they can and must do so to be compliant with ADA laws.

Again, this is based on the 2010 ruling (although even the 1991 rules state Amphitheaters are included). In addition, the difference with Fantasmic! in Florida is that you still get an unobstructed view, with WOC, you cannot actually see about 50% of the show with the placement that they have chosen (placing in the very back of the viewing area, with people standing in front of you, when you have to sit down)

I can see offering different areas of seating in a movie theater, but have not seen it in a theme park.

 

[cmwade77]

I can see offering different areas of seating in a movie theater, but have not seen it in a theme park.

This applies to ALL theaters, including those inside theme parks. Just because they aren't doing it yet, doesn't equal compliance. That being said, in most theme parks, the venues were last built/majorly remodeled (based on the definitions set forth under ADA) prior to 1991, so the rules don't apply. California Adventure was built well after that, so the rules do apply.

 

[livndisney]

This applies to ALL theaters, including those inside theme parks. Just because they aren't doing it yet, doesn't equal compliance. That being said, in most theme parks, the venues were last built/majorly remodeled (based on the definitions set forth under ADA) prior to 1991, so the rules don't apply. California Adventure was built well after that, so the rules do apply.

I know Animal Kingdom was built after 91 as was the stadium for Lights, Motor Action. Come to think of it I think the Fantasmic theater was built after 91. From what I have seen theme parks do not fall under the same rules as theaters (unless that has changed recently).

 

[cmwade77]

Again, just because they have chosen not to follow the rules does not mean they do not apply. Additionally a 2010 ruling has clarified that the rules apply to all theaters built in or after 1991, this would include theme park theaters.

 

[livndisney]

Again, just because they have chosen not to follow the rules does not mean they do not apply. Additionally a 2010 ruling has clarified that the rules apply to all theaters built in or after 1991, this would include theme park theaters.

Can you provide a link to include theme park theaters?

 

[livndisney]

I do see in the ada where what you told about wheelchair viewing to be true-

http://www.ada.gov/stadium.txt


"Whenever more than 300 seats are provided, wheelchair seating locations must be
provided in more than one location. This is known as dispersed seating. Wheelchair
seating locations must be dispersed throughout all seating areas and provide a choice of
admission prices and views comparable to those for the general public."

I found a general blurb about theme parks, but nothing about seating for those not in wheelchairs.

 

[disney david]

Got this off your link

In stadium-style movie theaters, wheelchair spaces must be located
within the rear 60% of the seats in the auditorium.

i may be wrong but doesn't this prove that wow fantasmic is not in violation of the law.

 

[livndisney]

Got this off your link

In stadium-style movie theaters, wheelchair spaces must be located
within the rear 60% of the seats in the auditorium.

know dosnet this prove that wow fantasmic is not in violation of the law.

I don't know that Fantasmic is considered a "movie theater". It would be considered stadium style. But if I want to sit in the middle of the theater and have mobility issues, I don't see how WDW can get me to that seat without major changes. WDW would have to modify several "theaters" to provide a "variety" of seating options. And I don't know that is intent of the law.

 

[disney david]

I don't know that Fantasmic is considered a "movie theater". It would be considered stadium style. But if I want to sit in the middle of the theater and have mobility issues, I don't see how WDW can get me to that seat without major changes. WDW would have to modify several "theaters" to provide a "variety" of seating options. And I don't know that is intent of the law.

yes i was just showing they are required to provide 60 percent of seats in the back. I think for a safety stand point it be hard to put them in the middle so that why the ada says the rear. If disney can prove it a safety issue the ADA wont be able to make disney create a unsafe environment just to comply with the law. But if they are breaking the law they would have to spend lots of money to prove it safety related to satisfy the ada. Not sure about dca haven't been to the new show.

 

[cmwade77]

Actually, while they are in the rear there, they do not provide multiple areas, which would be required to be in compliance.

Actually one could argue that Fantasmic! is a movie theater because it does display movies on an unconventional screen yes, but they are movies.

But the overall point was that the 2010 clarification was being made to show that it applies to ALL theaters, a lot of smaller local live theaters have had to make changes to how their ADA seating is being handled (you will see on their websites that they have had to do so in many cases, this would indicate that it definitely applies to all theaters that have over 300 seats, which the theme parks would fall under).

Please note that so far no one at Disney has argued that the rules do not apply, just that their bosses told them to move the wheel chair sections, which many people believe violate the rules.

In addition, even if the multiple areas is not required, they must provide equal or better viewing angles, and putting a sitting person behind a standing person is not equal viewing angles, as your view is obscured by the person standing in front of you. This is a basic point for this particular show. I think what really gets me on this one is they admitted it was for their convenience and not to provide better accommodations for those with special needs, as they had compliant seating before.

Now, I have written Disney, if they give me a poor response, I might report it to the DOJ (who is now charged with suing to enforce ADA laws under the 2010 guidelines) and if it is determined that I am right, it will end up costing Disney a lot of money to come in compliance throughout the DLR and WDW, so it would be in their best interest to keep that from happening.

 

[livndisney]

yes i was just showing they are required to provide 60 percent of seats in the back. I think for a safety stand point it be hard to put them in the middle so that why the ada says the rear. If disney can prove it a safety issue the ADA wont be able to make disney create a unsafe environment just to comply with the law. But if they are breaking the law they would have to spend lots of money to prove it safety related to satisfy the ada. Not sure about dca haven't been to the new show.

I have not been to dca, but does the World of Color require a seperate ticket purchase? I see in the link the OP provided about theaters and ticket purchase. I think that speaks more to "concert" type events and not theme park performances since you don't buy a seat.

 

[livndisney]

Actually, while they are in the rear there, they do not provide multiple areas, which would be required to be in compliance.

Actually one could argue that Fantasmic! is a movie theater because it does display movies on an unconventional screen yes, but they are movies.

But the overall point was that the 2010 clarification was being made to show that it applies to ALL theaters, a lot of smaller local live theaters have had to make changes to how their ADA seating is being handled (you will see on their websites that they have had to do so in many cases, this would indicate that it definitely applies to all theaters that have over 300 seats, which the theme parks would fall under).

Where are you seeing ADA seating? I see wheelchair and companion seating. The link you provided also speaks to ticketed theaters, which to my knowledge Disney doesn't require you to buy a seat.

 

[cmwade77]

That link was the one that summarized it best, if you look at the ADA's site, you can see it in more detail, wheelchair seating actually translates to ADA seating and for non-ticketed events, it translates until other seats are filled.

In addition, one could argue that WOC is a ticketed event, even though the tickets are free, you are required to have a ticket (they call it a fastpass, but it is a ticket) to use the viewing area. Since you cannot be in the viewing area without one, this would be considered a ticketed event. It is just the price is free, but again, other site have even shown that this applies to free events like when our local park has a concert, there are just some sections about ticket purchasing that may not apply, that doesn't mean that the rest of the document doesn't apply.

But once again, no one at Disney has ever once claimed that the ADA laws do not apply, the simply claim that they are unaware of all of the laws. My guess is that the head of WOC made this change without consulting the higher ups at Disney based on everything that I have been told by people at Disney.

 

[livndisney]

That link was the one that summarized it best, if you look at the ADA's site, you can see it in more detail, wheelchair seating actually translates to ADA seating and for non-ticketed events, it translates until other seats are filled.

In addition, one could argue that WOC is a ticketed event, even though the tickets are free, you are required to have a ticket (they call it a fastpass, but it is a ticket) to use the viewing area. Since you cannot be in the viewing area without one, this would be considered a ticketed event. It is just the price is free, but again, other site have even shown that this applies to free events like when our local park has a concert, there are just some sections about ticket purchasing that may not apply, that doesn't mean that the rest of the document doesn't apply.

But once again, no one at Disney has ever once claimed that the ADA laws do not apply, the simply claim that they are unaware of all of the laws. My guess is that the head of WOC made this change without consulting the higher ups at Disney based on everything that I have been told by people at Disney.

I am looking at the ADA site. I see where you have to be given the ability to buy a seat in various sections of a theater and that each area has to provide wheelchair seating. But I do not see where others with mobility issues (such as myself) are addressed. I don't know that what you are reading translates to Disney. I see where the seats can be "released". But I really think that applies more to concerts and not theme parks since you don't buy a seat at a theme park.

I do agree that making things harder for disabled just to make things easier for CMs is not right.

If I am reading correctly, this show is viewed around a lake and seats for all of the general public is not provided?