Cheating: Running under anothers bib and effecting results??

[CaliBanana]

Calibanana (cute name)

I think you meant the question for Robert.

Robert needed to know who you guys were so that he could pull the "I am the only RD here and so..."card.

Welcome to Roger, Cali, Runtime and MarathonFanatic.

Thank you! (and thanks for the catch, DOH!)

Anyone else wondering if he ever actually completed an ultramarathon?

 

[StitchAttack]

I actually wish that more races offered bib transfers. If they did, a lot of the issues about running under someone else's bib would go away.

With the amount of money it costs to enter races these days (hundreds of dollars sometimes) and how fast they fill up, it is sort of ridiculous that you can't transfer your bib legitimately in most races. Almost everything else in the world can be transferred. You can transfer (aka give them away, or sell them) tickets to a concert or a sporting event if you can't use them. A bib if like your ticket to the race. The fact that your bib is tied to your name/age/sex, is more of a technical hurdle that needs to be overcome in transferring the bib, than a reason to not allow transfers.

I believe it is because there is no financial incentive for race directors to allow bib transfers, that it isn't done more often. Taking Disney, for example. They have already received your money for the race months ahead of time. Whether you run or not, they make the same amount of money from the race. In fact, if you don't run the race, they actually expend fewer resources on you and it saves them money. Most race directors count on a certain number of no-shows in races (for marathons it can be as high as 10% or more) and buy their supplies accordingly.

So while I agree that running under someone else's bib is "technically" against the rules, I don't have a problem with it since there is no other alternative.

Sure there is the downside of the results being skewed, but that is pretty minor in my opinion. I, for one, care much more about my personal time and racing against myself than my placement among my fellow competitors. Also most of your overall placement and age group placement has to do with what race you run. For example, this thanksgiving I finished in the top 5% in a large 5K turkey trot that was run for charity. That wasn't because I ran a great race, it was because this race had lots of people walking, or pushing strollers or running with their dogs or just out to have a fun time, rather than race super fast. I could easily go out next week and run a faster time in a small local race and not even break the top 30%. My overall placement in a race, really says more about what type of crowd runs a given race, than it does about me.

 

[runtime]

I think it's been a blast!

Not really personal at this point - but my argument (not with you) is the effects of the jumping the course on other runners.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say in Post 63, but so far it has been largely ignored.

Since ultramickeymouse is the only one seemingly defending that side of the argument, I am still hoping to get a reply from him.

Will check back later.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

I think it is silly to think that there are not negative ramifications of not competing on the entire course. At the very least, it is a moral and contractual failure. Both of these speak to the integrity of the sport and thus have HUGE impact on its participants, RDs, sponsors, etc.

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

 

[CaliBanana]

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

As do I.

Athletics is about competition. If your best is cheating your way to a finishers medal then you're the quintessential example of a morally bankrupt individual. You didn't pay for a finishers medal you EARN that. What you paid for was the opportunity to try for that medal. You want to start offering "thanks for inhaling oxygen in the general vicinity of our race course" medals that is your prerogative. But any person who accepts a medal without completing an entire course is a cheater. Plain and simple.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

As do I.

Athletics is about competition. If your best is cheating your way to a finishers medal then you're the quintessential example of a morally bankrupt individual. You didn't pay for a finishers medal you EARN that. What you paid for was the opportunity to try for that medal. You want to start offering "thanks for inhaling oxygen in the general vicinity of our race course" medals that is your prerogative. But any person who accepts a medal without completing an entire course is a cheater. Plain and simple.

Well said. May as well just give it with the participant shirt at packet pick-up

 

[runtime]

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

Thanks.

Once the integrity of the sport disappears, then the sport itself disappears. Sponsors don't want to be associated with it. People don't want to be associated with it. They don't want their kids involved in it, etc.

Ultramickeymouse may be correct in that it doesn't hurt anybody's finisher statistics for that race and on that day, but it is a short-sighted argument. It ultimately affects the sport as whole, which in turn affects all involved parties (again, sponsors, RDs, runners, etc.). I would really like to hear his thoughts on this bit.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

Thanks.

Once the integrity of the sport disappears, then the sport itself disappears. Sponsors don't want to be associated with it. People don't want to be associated with it. They don't want their kids involved in it, etc.

Ultramickeymouse may be correct in that it doesn't hurt anybody's finisher statistics for that race and on that day, but it is a short-sighted argument. It ultimately affects the sport as whole, which in turn affects all involved parties (again, sponsors, RDs, runners, etc.). I would really like to hear his thoughts on this bit.

Thanks - that's pretty much the point that I was trying to convey.

 

[bunnyfoo]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

 

[runtime]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

If I understand ultramickeymouse's argument so far, I think he would say it would be okay if they didn't wear chips because then they wouldn't affect results (i.e. not place in an age group). Well, I agree that not wearing a chip would mean that the finishing order isn't altered, it still implies that the finishing order is the only thing that can be negatively impacted. No true at all in my opinion, but you all already know that. (blush)

 

[MarathonFanatic]

If I understand ultramickeymouse's argument so far, I think he would say it would be okay if they didn't wear chips because then they wouldn't affect results (i.e. not place in an age group). Well, I agree that not wearing a chip would mean that the finishing order isn't altered, it still implies that the finishing order is the only thing that can be negatively impacted. No true at all in my opinion, but you all already know that. (blush)

But it does present the issue that you may use extra effort in order to attempt to pass said people therefore affecting your race b/c you are using extra effort that you would otherwise not need to use.

 

[cewait]

I think most other runners would GREATLY disagree with this last statement.

A Finisher's Medal is for those that FINISH the race - the WHOLE race. Otherwise it would be given at packet pick-up and called an Entrant's Medal. Those that ENTER, get a shirt. Those that FINISH, get a medal.

I actually long for the days when you enter you get a bib and when you finish you get a shirt.

 

[ultramickeymouse]

Yes, we all have 30 days or so to wait and see what antics you will pull to get to the finish line at WDW. I'm sure the ASI cameras will capture that moment just like the moments at DL and RFTT.

WISH is a community of people that are working to meet goals, goals they have set for themselves and as a group, you are really not setting any type of example as a RD or a runner/walker.

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements .

I finished both races and have proof from people like Lily and Jeanne who saw me out there. If you have something else else other than you not liking me, please bring it forward!

I have been here on WISH a lot longer than you and know they are a good group working on a common goal. Dodn't preach to me about this forum!

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I actually have a question for Robert.

Robert, when you pickup these finisher medals for races whose distances you have not completed. Do you tell people you ran those races? Or do you hold them up as a "I collect medals" with the same attitude that some people collect stamps or Disneyana?

What race are you talking about? Can you give me an example?

 

[MarathonFanatic]

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements .

Yes - YOU started and finished... but someone else didn't.

 

[hungrygreenhippo]

I actually wish that more races offered bib transfers. If they did, a lot of the issues about running under someone else's bib would go away.

With the amount of money it costs to enter races these days (hundreds of dollars sometimes) and how fast they fill up, it is sort of ridiculous that you can't transfer your bib legitimately in most races. Almost everything else in the world can be transferred. You can transfer (aka give them away, or sell them) tickets to a concert or a sporting event if you can't use them. A bib if like your ticket to the race. The fact that your bib is tied to your name/age/sex, is more of a technical hurdle that needs to be overcome in transferring the bib, than a reason to not allow transfers.

I believe it is because there is no financial incentive for race directors to allow bib transfers, that it isn't done more often. Taking Disney, for example. They have already received your money for the race months ahead of time. Whether you run or not, they make the same amount of money from the race. In fact, if you don't run the race, they actually expend fewer resources on you and it saves them money. Most race directors count on a certain number of no-shows in races (for marathons it can be as high as 10% or more) and buy their supplies accordingly.
So while I agree that running under someone else's bib is "technically" against the rules, I don't have a problem with it since there is no other alternative.

Sure there is the downside of the results being skewed, but that is pretty minor in my opinion. I, for one, care much more about my personal time and racing against myself than my placement among my fellow competitors. Also most of your overall placement and age group placement has to do with what race you run. For example, this thanksgiving I finished in the top 5% in a large 5K turkey trot that was run for charity. That wasn't because I ran a great race, it was because this race had lots of people walking, or pushing strollers or running with their dogs or just out to have a fun time, rather than race super fast. I could easily go out next week and run a faster time in a small local race and not even break the top 30%. My overall placement in a race, really says more about what type of crowd runs a given race, than it does about me.

This has been an interesting thread. I too think that a fininshers medal should only be for those who legitimately finish the entire distance of the race within the time limits/rules of the race. Obviously there are those out there who don't though (remember the guy from The Biggest Loser... didn't he keep the medal even though he skipped out on like 3 miles?). While I may not morally agree with that viewpoint, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For example, to play devil's advocate, someone may view that medal as a record of their accomplishment to simply get out and attempt to complete a marathon.

As for the transfer of bibs, luckily I've never been in the situation yet where I've paid registration for a race I couldn't participate in. However, personally I would not try to sell my bib to someone else because I'd be too worried about the ramifications of getting caught. For example, I think RNR races will ban anyone caught buying or selling a bib for 3 years or something like that. I know the chances of anyone actually noticing it are slim, but still I wouldn't risk it. When you sign up for a race, it's your personal responsibility to know the rules and agree to abide by them.

I would love to see more races offer the option to transfer bibs. But I disagree that almost everything else in the world can be transferred. I haven't quite decided if this analogy applies or not, but I'm going to post it anyway for discussion... The obvious thing that comes to my mind is park tickets. Even though I paid for a 7-day park hopper and only used 6 days, I can't do whatever I want with that 7th day (give it away, sell it, etc.) When I bought the 7-day park hopper, I knew that it couldn't be transfered and I agreed to Disney's terms. As mentioned above, most races probably expect a certain percentage of no-shows and account for it accordingly when setting registration limits. This is no different than what airlines and hotels do.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements .

Yes - YOU started and finished... but someone else didn't. That person only crossed one line - the finish line.

 

[MarathonFanatic]

I actually long for the days when you enter you get a bib and when you finish you get a shirt.

A recent race I ran did finisher's tech shirts - basic t's for entering.

 

[ultramickeymouse]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

If they weren't wearing a timing chip, they would effect results or Age Division Awards. If they did than that is totally wrong!

 

[runtime]

Robert -- I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you are the only one taking the opposite side of the argument, so it may be coming across that way.

Any chance I could get your opinions on posts 63 and 107?