Blackfish

[Chernabog#1fan]

I don't recall telling anyone that they have their "head in a hole", but you know what? I don't care anymore.

She was not speaking about you, she was speaking about Ginger Renea.

 

[HollyL]

To my fellow Orca freedom crusaders, I can't remember if I mentioned it, and I am too lazy to go back and read all my posts, but there is a great book called "A Death at Seaworld" by David Kirby. It covers a lot of material that was covered in "Blackfish" but goes beyond just Seaworld and has a lot of other insightful information. It's a great read for those who are passionate about orcas. I downloaded it onto my nook, and it's available through Amazon. I highly recommend it.

 

[Ginger Renae]

I did catch that video the other night! I loved that. Wild orcas are intelligent enough to know that the men were helping their buddy, so they didn't try to interfere or attack. I would love to have been able to have an opportunity to help save an animal I feel so passionate about.

I belong to several Facebook groups that are all about orcas, so that is how I found that. There is also one called Orca Network that posts about all the different sightings of the resident pods in the Pacific Northwest area. Even though I am in Texas, I still love following it! I also follow the Free Lolita group, the Russian Orca group (who is against the recent wild orca captures in Russia), the Free Tilikum group, as well as a few others. I like to know about everything that is going on having to do with our black and white friends.

We belong to several of the same FB groups...

I don't recall telling anyone that they have their "head in a hole", but you know what? I don't care anymore.

That was me. I don't play well with others and I run with scissors.

 

[HollyL]

ha ha....yeah....but your heart is in the right place.

 

[TheZue]

Very true. I'm sure boards like these serve as entertainment for certain people, just as watching orcas perform stupid tricks serve as entertainment for some people. Different strokes for different folks.

And I guess I need to add....this statement is not meant to be an insult to those who find online forums to be entertaining, we all have our things......

I find online forums really entertaining; but there are no humans confined in closets for their entire lives being forced to make up absurd stories for my amusement in order to get food, so I don't feel too badly about it

 

[GrnMtnMan]

humans confined in closets for their entire lives being forced to make up absurd stories for my amusement in order to get food

You must not enjoy science fiction, as that would describe many of today's sci-fi writers.

Anyway...

I watched Blackfish and only took one compelling thing out of it: its dangerous to be in the water with Orcas. In the wild, its dangerous for their prey. In captivity, its dangerous for the humans that interact with them.

The rest of Blackfish seemed a bit emotionally manipulative. I felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin made me discount their message.

I felt two of the scientist did a disservice to themselves. First, was the one who said you cant call Orca vocalizations language in a scientific sense..but then continued to repeatedly call it language. An objective scientist would not wade into an issue that way, and he clearly showed his biases outweigh his scientific credibility. Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

It also seemed the neuro scientist also greatly overstated the understanding of brains&.we barley have elementary understanding of the human brains, so to claim the Orca brain is so well understood made me dismiss her opinions immediately. Which related to my other complaint about Blackfish.

There was really no attempt to be balanced. Reputable documentarians like Frontline and Nova look at an issue from all angles and, at least in passing, discuss criticisms and weaknesses of theories and ideas. The lack of any credible counter argument moved this film from a well done documentary into a piece of propaganda or info-tainment.

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment. I cant decide whether captive animals are lottery winners or unlucky, but Im glad these opportunities exist. I enjoy eating animal products, including milk, eggs, and meats. I very close with a vegan (who is so on ethical grounds), and I understand her feelings about eating animals and animal products, but I do not share any of her beliefs about animals.

 

[JanaDee]

You must not enjoy science fiction, as that would describe many of today's sci-fi writers.

Anyway...

I watched Blackfish and only took one compelling thing out of it: its dangerous to be in the water with Orcas. In the wild, its dangerous for their prey. In captivity, its dangerous for the humans that interact with them.

The rest of Blackfish seemed a bit emotionally manipulative. I felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin make me discount their message&.

I felt two of the scientist did a disservice to themselves. First, was the one who said you cant call Orca vocalizations language in a scientific sense..but then continued to repeatedly call it language. An objective scientist would not wade into an issue that way, and he clearly showed his biases outweigh his scientific credibility. Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

It also seemed the neuro scientist also greatly overstated the understanding of brains&.we barley have elementary understanding of the human brains, so to claim the Orca brain is so well understood made me dismiss her opinions immediately. Which related to my other complaint about Blackfish.

There was really no attempt to be balanced. Reputable documentarians like Frontline and Nova look at an issue from all angles and, at least in passing, discuss criticisms and weaknesses of theories and ideas. The lack of any credible counter argument moved this film from a well done documentary into a piece of propaganda or info-tainment.

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment. I cant decide whether captive animals are lottery winners or unlucky, but Im glad these opportunities exist. I enjoy eating animal products, including milk, eggs, and meats. I very close with a vegan (who is so on ethical grounds), and I understand her feelings about eating animals and animal products, but I do not share any of her beliefs about animals.

Your review mirrors my opinion.

 

[sonnyjane]

Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

I disagree with you when you say that animals can only communicate primitively and don't use language. Whales certainly have "language"... There are regional dialects! Orcas aside, other animals have repeatedly shown that they communicate beyond a primitive level. Prairie dogs have consistent language that describes specific threats (different calls for hawk vs. fox vs. human intruder), birds "name" their chicks and those chicks learn and respond to their given names from early on in the nest. Studies have been done with apes in which they are divided by a physical barrier and cannot see each other, yet they verbally communicate between themselves which images to pick on a board in order to get treats. If you think those examples, scientifically published and documented, aren't indicative of language in animals then I'm quite confused by your definition of language! I know human teenagers that don't even communicate that clearly!

 

[lucas]

You must not enjoy science fiction, as that would describe many of today's sci-fi writers.

Anyway...

I watched Blackfish and only took one compelling thing out of it: its dangerous to be in the water with Orcas. In the wild, its dangerous for their prey. In captivity, its dangerous for the humans that interact with them.

The rest of Blackfish seemed a bit emotionally manipulative. I felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin make me discount their message&.

I felt two of the scientist did a disservice to themselves. First, was the one who said you cant call Orca vocalizations language in a scientific sense..but then continued to repeatedly call it language. An objective scientist would not wade into an issue that way, and he clearly showed his biases outweigh his scientific credibility. Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

It also seemed the neuro scientist also greatly overstated the understanding of brains&.we barley have elementary understanding of the human brains, so to claim the Orca brain is so well understood made me dismiss her opinions immediately. Which related to my other complaint about Blackfish.

There was really no attempt to be balanced. Reputable documentarians like Frontline and Nova look at an issue from all angles and, at least in passing, discuss criticisms and weaknesses of theories and ideas. The lack of any credible counter argument moved this film from a well done documentary into a piece of propaganda or info-tainment.

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment. I cant decide whether captive animals are lottery winners or unlucky, but Im glad these opportunities exist. I enjoy eating animal products, including milk, eggs, and meats. I very close with a vegan (who is so on ethical grounds), and I understand her feelings about eating animals and animal products, but I do not share any of her beliefs about animals.

One thing for certain is that this particular whale is dangerous and a killer.

 

[ariel71]

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment.

And that really says it all, doesn't it. Don't try to rationalize your outlook with some pseudo-scientific review of the movie - your points made so little logical sense in terms of what you were trying to discredit that it's just too much work to address point by point. But here's one example - This movie took two years to make. You see one shot of the trainers together and assume they are an "organized group", implying that none of them were interviewed separately over that two year period or are capable of independently discussing their own history with and emotions about the subject matter (The horror! No documentary has EVER dealt with emotional subject matter!). It's not like there are 20,000 Orca trainers in the US. I'm sure the vast majority of them know each other to some extent. To discount their opinions as "misleading" "manipulative" "spin" because at one point they were on a boat together seeing the very same animals in the wild that the documentary was about? Please. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[micknpluto]

Regardless of people's opinions on the subject. Sea Worlds integrity has been compromised. That's makes me happy. They deserve it.

 

[lucas]

Regardless of people's opinions on the subject. Sea Worlds integrity has been compromised. That's makes me happy. They deserve it.

Exactly! That sums it all up.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

And that really says it all, doesn't it.

If you're ready to dismiss PP's opinions based on the fact PP doesn't currently have a problem with Orcas in captivity, then to be fair we must also dismiss the opinion of anyone who is unwilling to consider the notion that captive Orcas might NOT be such a bad thing.

And it's ironic as PP never indicated they would be unwilling to accept the "other side"; only that they did not have an issue today.

In the end, your mission is to change people's minds, but I believe you have some flaws in your method

 

[wiigirl]

Your review mirrors my opinion.

Mine too...

 

[lexandme]

Link to watch The Cove online.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/the_cove_2009/

 

[HollyL]

Many pro-captivity people use the arguement that captivity has done good for the species. Yes, I am not going to argue against that one. Back in the 60's and prior, people didn't know much of anything about orcas, and most people thought of them as dangerous killers, and fisherman and even the Navy used to shoot at them. The first orca that was ever put on display (Moby Doll) was done so by accident. He didn't live long. The second orca to be put on display was the famous Namu, and yes, he definitely served as an Ambassador for the species, as the guy who purchased him (Ted Griffin) swam with him in his seapen, and people started to show an interest in the killer whale and saw them in a positive light, and saw that they weren't just ruthless killers. So yes, in the 60's and 70's it did do some good and maybe saved the species in the long run. BUT, now, fast forward 40 - 50 years later......with everything that we have learned, and everything that we know now, and how, we as human beings have evolved, it is no longer necessary. Give orcas like Lolita, Tilikum, and the others that were taken out of their homes and away from their families, the chance to retire and possibly be reunited with their families rather than languish, suffer, and die in their tiny, inadequate tanks. Positive steps have been taken since then, such as wild captures being outlawed, and it's been quite some time since wild orcas have been plucked from their families (with exception to the recent capture of 8 resident orcas out of Russian waters). Wild orcas that were born in the ocean are one thing, and it may not be possible to put captive born orcas in the ocean, but let them live their lives as ethically as possible, by having some kind of sanctuary for "show orcas" to be retired to, and put an end to their artifical insemination practices, which is how most captive born orcas have come about. Wild orcas do not have calves until they are about 15 years old, and they have years of exposure seeing other members of their pods raise calves. When Seaworld forcefully impregnates them at 5 years old, and they end up rejecting their calves, of course that is going to happen. They never got to learn how to take care of babies in the first place.

So, Seaworld was definitely not the first to put an orca on display, but they are the trailblazers in turning it into a multi-million dollar industry at the expense of these poor animals. It is time for this to end.

 

[HollyL]

You must not enjoy science fiction, as that would describe many of today's sci-fi writers.

Anyway...

I watched Blackfish and only took one compelling thing out of it: its dangerous to be in the water with Orcas. In the wild, its dangerous for their prey. In captivity, its dangerous for the humans that interact with them.

The rest of Blackfish seemed a bit emotionally manipulative. I felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin made me discount their message.

I felt two of the scientist did a disservice to themselves. First, was the one who said you cant call Orca vocalizations language in a scientific sense..but then continued to repeatedly call it language. An objective scientist would not wade into an issue that way, and he clearly showed his biases outweigh his scientific credibility. Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

It also seemed the neuro scientist also greatly overstated the understanding of brains&.we barley have elementary understanding of the human brains, so to claim the Orca brain is so well understood made me dismiss her opinions immediately. Which related to my other complaint about Blackfish.

There was really no attempt to be balanced. Reputable documentarians like Frontline and Nova look at an issue from all angles and, at least in passing, discuss criticisms and weaknesses of theories and ideas. The lack of any credible counter argument moved this film from a well done documentary into a piece of propaganda or info-tainment.

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment. I cant decide whether captive animals are lottery winners or unlucky, but Im glad these opportunities exist. I enjoy eating animal products, including milk, eggs, and meats. I very close with a vegan (who is so on ethical grounds), and I understand her feelings about eating animals and animal products, but I do not share any of her beliefs about animals.

felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin made me discount their message.

Just to clear that up.......and I read about this in a book, they were all together in the end watching the orcas in their own natural habitat because they all reunited at some kind of Orca advocate pow-wow in the San Juan Island area. Some of the trainers had worked together previously, some had not, but they all have the same thing in common; they were young and naive when they started, and in time realized what they were doing wasn't right and they are now on the other side fighting to right a wrong. These are intelligent people, most of whom are now doctors, and they are speaking out. I can definitely admire that.

 

[julieannboo]

Today is the 30th anniversary of when Tilikum was captured off of Iceland.

 

[ariel71]

If you're ready to dismiss PP's opinions based on the fact PP doesn't currently have a problem with Orcas in captivity, then to be fair we must also dismiss the opinion of anyone who is unwilling to consider the notion that captive Orcas might NOT be such a bad thing.

And it's ironic as PP never indicated they would be unwilling to accept the "other side"; only that they did not have an issue today.

In the end, your mission is to change people's minds, but I believe you have some flaws in your method

If you're going to use the movie to prove that it doesn't show a problem with orcas in captivity, I think it's pretty clear that for all intents and purposes he's on one side and staying there no matter what. The logic and points he used to "justify" that position didn't make sense.

The filmmaker had no skin in the game. She has said she was "just a mom taking her kids to SeaWorld" when she started developing it. Saying that because there was no counter-argument that the movie is propaganda or info-tainment? The cuts and scars they showed on Tilikum's body when he was held in the same pool as the two older adult females were very real. The size and condition of their pools is very real. That they take calves from their mothers is very real. That's not propaganda, and it's certainly not info-tainment.

I've yet to hear a good argument for keeping cetaceans in captivity that can't be counter-pointed. I just can't wrap my head around a viewpoint that doesn't see the cruelty inherent in the system. (I so want to put a Holy Grail quote there but it would be inappropriate).

 

[mrsclark]

You must not enjoy science fiction, as that would describe many of today's sci-fi writers.

Anyway...

I watched Blackfish and only took one compelling thing out of it: its dangerous to be in the water with Orcas. In the wild, its dangerous for their prey. In captivity, its dangerous for the humans that interact with them.

The rest of Blackfish seemed a bit emotionally manipulative. I felt the way they presented the former trainers was a bit misleading. They clearly wanted viewers to see them as independent (filming them in different locations, etc), but the clips in the end showed they were an organized group. That bit of spin made me discount their message.

I felt two of the scientist did a disservice to themselves. First, was the one who said you cant call Orca vocalizations language in a scientific sense..but then continued to repeatedly call it language. An objective scientist would not wade into an issue that way, and he clearly showed his biases outweigh his scientific credibility. Animals don't have language, but they can communicate, primitively. Calling it language just misleads and leads people to thinking these predatory animals have human capabilities.

It also seemed the neuro scientist also greatly overstated the understanding of brains&.we barley have elementary understanding of the human brains, so to claim the Orca brain is so well understood made me dismiss her opinions immediately. Which related to my other complaint about Blackfish.

There was really no attempt to be balanced. Reputable documentarians like Frontline and Nova look at an issue from all angles and, at least in passing, discuss criticisms and weaknesses of theories and ideas. The lack of any credible counter argument moved this film from a well done documentary into a piece of propaganda or info-tainment.

For context: I have no problem with animals in captivity, nor animals in captivity for my entertainment. I cant decide whether captive animals are lottery winners or unlucky, but Im glad these opportunities exist. I enjoy eating animal products, including milk, eggs, and meats. I very close with a vegan (who is so on ethical grounds), and I understand her feelings about eating animals and animal products, but I do not share any of her beliefs about animals.

I would just add that the filmmaker made multiple attempts to get SeaWorld to participate and SeaWorld declined. So you can't blame the filmmaker that SeaWorld refused to talk to them?

Also SeaWorld did release a series of bullet points trying to refute points made in the film (they released these at the same time the movie was being released in the theater). If you go back several pages in this thread, there is a link to SeaWorld's response. So you can read that to get the "other side" of the story to get their viewpoint. If you are interested, I then went point by point on what I agreed and didn't agree with from SeaWorld's information. And we had a discussion around that too.