Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Girlstar30]

I am so tempted to call my guide and tell her I’m thinking of adding on a small contract provided I get clarity on this issue. Honestly, I like having a buffer points but will only do so if I know I can rent them out occasionally through a rental company.

T&C says: personal use may include allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion. Additionally personal use means the member does not regularly or frequently rent/selll reservations booked using their membership.
=> this doesn’t not say renting to non-family/non-friend is prohibited.

Furthermore, the chat @Girlstar30 had with MS is conflicting. In one sentence MS says it’s not condoned. Follow up is that it’s prohibited. To not condone something is different than to prohibit something.

I know, I took not condoned as not encouraged, but I didn't want any Gray areas which is why I asked if it was expressly prohibited and bam!, was not expecting that I am also nervous because I want another membership but not with that crazy policy!

 

[Girlstar30]

While I would agree with this policy wholeheartedly if it had been in place all along, renting was definitely allowed as long as it wasn't a business. For years, guides suggested renting part of your points to cover dues (this was back when minimum point purchases were much higher). Maybe they plan on claiming such suggestions were all hearsay since it was back when guides refused to use email?

I hate renting, but this whole thing really stinks and makes DVC look really bad. Harassing members over a policy that's allowed per the POS is not the way to solve a problem DVC created for itself.

Agreed! Crazy inconsistent!

 

[kilik64]

Someone should be like I cant use my points next year, I was looking at using a rental broker like Davids or DVC rental to help rent out my points. Is that allowed?

Probably get another completely different response.

 

[Mouseforward]

I read that. So where are you adding on??

That answer has been changing more than Member Services rental responses....

 

[Sykes]

Except I asked if any of the those currently exist in terms of not being an exhaustive list when I sent my info and my response was that right now, all that is in place is the 2011 policy

Remember, the POS states they have a definition on file and that you can request it. So, whatever is sent should be all the documents related to it.

So, until we see DVC come out with something else or we get evidence that DVC interprets the way you think they do, then it comes down to each owner having to decide how to interpret what it means and go from there.

IMO, they only need to detail in the commercial use policy anything that is not adequately covered by the POS stating only personal use is allowed and all commercial use is prohibited. The 20 reservation rule is exactly that--it states that Disney is allowed to automatically assume that anyone who has more than 20 reservations is a commercial enterprise (unless the member can prove otherwise to Disney's satisfaction), which is a policy that is not covered by the baseline language in the governing documents. But Disney can enforce any aspect of the POS regardless of what is in the commercial use policy.

This is reductio ad absurdum, but are you really trying to say that if I sent Disney a certified letter attesting that I am running a commercial enterprise for the purposes of profiting off of DVC rentals, they still couldn't do anything about it if I stay under 20 reservations (unless they update the policy)?

 

[Mouseforward]

Someone should be like I cant use my points next year, I was looking at using a rental broker like Davids or DVC rental to help rent out my points. Is that allowed?

Probably get another completely different response.

go for it!! post it in the other chat and ask if the rental sites are renting the points they own from the resale side ?

 

[McCrae]

The thing to remember is that they answer questions asked and in that conversation, they have accurate info.

You can book as many reservations as you want. The POS and rules allow that, including the Commercial Use Policy…

However, once you want to go above 20, then you may have to discuss things with DVC.

Anyone who is not renting points to a high degree should have no problem supporting to DVC the reservations are for personal use.

What is now clear is that the 2011 policy is still the offical policy for commercial use.

And, honestly, if the issue has been a lack of enforcement of this policy, and now they do, all those owners who have been renting above 20 but ignores will be caught up.

Nothing the board said in December or any actions by DVC to date has indicated they are going after average owners who may be renting at a level that doesn’t rise to a commercial level.

Obviously, DVC can change rules and policies any time…that is nothing new…

We will need to wait to see if we get any reports of what enforcement looks like, or if we get updated rules from DVC.

Even the updated T and C do not conflict with the commercial use policy still in place.

So, owners should monitor the website for updated documents for changes to HRR or additional updates to T and C.

Does the 20 reservation policy apply per use year?

 

[Brianstl]

Except I asked if any of the those currently exist in terms of not being an exhaustive list when I sent my info and my response was that right now, all that is in place is the 2011 policy

Remember, the POS states they have a definition on file and that you can request it. So, whatever is sent should be all the documents related to it.

So, until we see DVC come out with something else or we get evidence that DVC interprets the way you think they do, then it comes down to each owner having to decide how to interpret what it means and go from there.

They do exist and would be under how they define "commercial purposes" or "commercial use" in what they sent you since using the membership for "commercial purposes" has always been banned. To this point you haven't shared their actual definition of the term.

 

[Mouseforward]

They do exist and would be under how they define "commercial purposes" or "commercial use" in what they sent you since using the membership for "commercial purposes" has always been banned. To this point you haven't shared their actual definition of the term.

But she has asked you to reach out and get these answers on your own multiple times - it takes a letter and a trip to the post office to answer your question. Why keep badgering her?

 

[Brianstl]

I know, I took not condoned as not encouraged, but I didn't want any Gray areas which is why I asked if it was expressly prohibited and bam!, was not expecting that I am also nervous because I want another membership but not with that crazy policy!

This is why we need the definition of "commercial purposes" that DVC has. For all we know, any renting to anyone not friends/family or for any renting even involving friends/family that generates what Disney considers a profit could have been banned at least since 2008 or even earlier. How they define the term commercial purposes is the key.

 

[Brianstl]

But she has asked you to reach out and get these answers on your own multiple times - it takes a letter and a trip to the post office to answer your question. Why keep badgering her?

I will do that. I was not trying to badger Sandi and if I am coming off as badgering her, I sincerely apologize. Sandi has always been more the kind on here and I would not want to offend her or make her feel like I was attacking her. I was just, probably clumsily, attempting to point out that definition is the key to what they can enforce and what they can't enforce if they ever decide to actually enforce anything. My zeal may have took me too far.

I apologize.

 

[Girlstar30]

I will do that. I was not trying to badger Sandi and if I am coming off as badgering her, I sincerely apologize. Sandi has always been more the kind on here and I would not want to offend her or make her feel like I was attacking her. I was just, probably clumsily, attempting to point out that definition is the key to what they can enforce and what they can't enforce if they ever decide to actually enforce anything. My zeal may have took me too far.

I apologize.

I didnt take it like that

 

[VGCgroupie]

Does the 20 reservation policy apply per use year?

From what I understand it is a rolling 12 month period which makes it even more convoluted

 

[Sandisw]

IMO, they only need to detail in the commercial use policy anything that is not adequately covered by the POS stating only personal use is allowed and all commercial use is prohibited. The 20 reservation rule is exactly that--it states that Disney is allowed to automatically assume that anyone who has more than 20 reservations is a commercial enterprise (unless the member can prove otherwise to Disney's satisfaction), which is a policy that is not covered by the baseline language in the governing documents. But Disney can enforce any aspect of the POS regardless of what is in the commercial use policy.

This is reductio ad absurdum, but are you really trying to say that if I sent Disney a certified letter attesting that I am running a commercial enterprise for the purposes of profiting off of DVC rentals, they still couldn't do anything about it if I stay under 20 reservations (unless they update the policy)?

If DVCs offical policy says it takes a certain number of reservations before one is considered to be commercial purpose, or enterprise, then yes.

If DVC wants to be able to act before 20, then just lower it or remove all reference to number of reservations.

They set the threshold, not me. They have chosen to date not to change it and only they know why.

We don’t need to keep going round and round. As I said, my reading and the advice I have gotten is that as long as that is how it is written, and DVC said they provided me with all written records, which is what the POS entitles me to have, then until DVC gives us something else, or we see them enforcing it the way that you say they can, my reading of it is just as valid as anyone else’s.

You are free to interpret the way you do, and i have always said that each owner has to decide how they view and interpret the contract absent of clear answers from DVC.

 

[Sandisw]

Does the 20 reservation policy apply per use year?

Rolling 12 months.

 

[Girlstar30]

It will all depend on how DVC intends to enforce something like this...which, IMO...is going to be an uphill battle for many reasons.

But, they could also take the approach that if you say the reservations in the names of others are family or friends, then they may simply agree.

Who knows? But, my emial was quite blunt...and asked if this is the case, how does it not fun afoul with FL 718.111

This has me thinking, and I know nothing about Florida real estate and how it works so this can be totally not possible, but could it be that the trust model is being put in place for the purpose of prohibiting rentals?

If its not a deeded real estate that people own, does this mean that the trust makes it so that Disney owns it and they could prohibit renting for any resort that people own that is part of the trust ?

I believe you answered this for me before but I forgot, but is Riviera part of this new trust or which hotels are? Thank you!

 

[VGCgroupie]

When all of this came about in the original thread I was 100% on board with DVC being vague in order to prevent commercial renters from having parameters to skate around the rules. As of now I am no longer on board with that. It went from vagueness within the terminology of commercial use to now vagueness around just friends and family.

 

[Girlstar30]

I didnt like the vagueness but I liked it better than CM's flat out saying its prohibited because I bought under the impression that it was allowed!

I want commerical renters gone, but I want flexibility for members whose intentions are for personal use because life happens. That was always my concern with all this

When all of this came about in the original thread I was 100% on board with DVC being vague in order to prevent commercial renters from having parameters to skate around the rules. As of now I am no longer on board with that. It went from vagueness within the terminology of commercial use to now vagueness around just friends and family.

 

[Sandisw]

This is why we need the definition of "commercial purposes" that DVC has. For all we know, any renting to anyone not friends/family or for any renting even involving friends/family that generates what Disney considers a profit could have been banned at least since 2008 or even earlier. How they define the term commercial purposes is the key.

It does not include any language about who one can rent to in terms of what is commerical....I am willing to post this part....but, as I said, to share the entire 4 pages publicly, I want permission from DVC to do that. People who want to see all the documents I was sent need to request them if they don't want to wait to see if DVC gives me permission to post in a public forum.

The additional documents I was referring to was beyond the 2011 policy that I was sent becaues the last clause says that this is not an exhaustive list, so I directly asked for any other documents or list in excistence that would be covered uner that clause....none were sent, only this.

So, as of today, there is nothing from DVC in any of the rules, regulations, or policies that define renters as only those who are "family and friends"



PS - We are all "friends" here so I don't take anything personally....I am sharing for others what I am getting from DVC but everyone is going to have to evaluate and interpret it on their own.....I will always base mine on what DVC provides to me, and if I think that what they are doing or saying doesn't match the rules, then I will advocate for them to either change the rules officially, or stop implying something to owners is a rule when it is not.

I have shared before....its like the holidng penalty....if it says you won't get hit with it until 30 days or less, then DVC should not be allowed to hit you at 60 days because you cancel too many times, without actually making that the rule.....if DVC believes they can support that renting to someone you don't know is commerical activity, but renting to someone you do is not, then they need to actually put that out there and have an explanation for owners who it matches their published definitions of commericial purposes.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I didnt like the vagueness but I likes it better than CM's flat out saying its prohibited because I bought under the impression that it was allowed!

I want commerical renters gone, but I want flexibility for members whose intentions are for personal use because life happens. That was always my concern with all this

Yep exactly my opinion on it too and I think a majority of members