"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[Gumbo4x4]

One of my best friends is white and when we go out she almost always drives because we are less likely to get pulled over. Yes we established this years ago. And in 10 years of going out on the town with her the only time we were pulled over was 3 years ago on a rare night that I drove. I honestly believe it was just a coincidence. I don't think he profiled us.

I honestly mean no offense here, but if that's you in the profile picture, you look "white" to me.

 

[Colleen27]

Not disputing any of your numbers or needs in other areas. But the point in the article I quoted is to address police violence and to say that the real measure of whether police violence is racially disportionate should not be measured against the racial make up of the general population but against the racial make up of actual police encounters.

But if minorities are stopped at disproportionate rates and charged with more serious crimes when arrested than their white counterparts, that would necessarily skew those statistics.

What website is that graphic from? I'd be interested in looking at the database.

The Guardian, of all places, has an excellent ongoing feature about police killings in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/counted-us-police-killings

In ways I have been posting (along with many others) like being a clear pattern of black people being more likely to end up with jail time for the exact same offenses as white people (again, this can also be tied to income, but we know that black people are much more likely to live in poverty--including growing up in poverty). And being more likely to have stiffer and logner sentences for the same things. and being more likely to be suspended from shcool for the same things than their white coutnerparts. And being more likely to grow up in poverty. And being more less likely to called in for job interviews if their name indicates theare likely black than if it is more "hite" sounding (lots of studies on this--it happens), etc, etc, etc and on and on---and I beleive most of it in unintentional and subconsios, but it is there (and, well, reading this thread, I am begining tothink, sadly, it might be less subconcious and less unintended than i have beleived).

And while race is undoubtedly a factor, income is as well. If there is a downside to BLM and the conversations it has provoked, I believe that's where it lies - in framing the problem solely along racial lines and thus obscuring the fact that in many places, poor whites and Hispanics are butting up against many (but certainly not all) of the same problems. That does strip the movement of logical allies, white people who have experienced some of the same abusive policing tactics (being deemed "suspicious" for having a crappy car, getting ticketed to justify stops, dealing with license suspensions and warrants for inability to pay) but who are not sympathetic to what they view as "the race card".

Some officers can be aggressive buggers for reasons no one understands to anybody, at anytime, or even all the time. I'd like to see all of that type lose their badges. So would many other officers, prosecutors and judges.

Sometimes it is for reasons that are well understood. Out here in the sticks, it used to be pretty common for our PD's new hires to be experienced officers retired from the Detroit system. Our town and several others in the area changed the practice of hiring DPD retirees, though, after seeing a pattern of increased complaints about and confrontational encounters with officers with that background as compared to locally-based officers. Whether that's a failing of training or the cynicism of working for many years in the inner city, I don't know. But I do know that it was a Detroit retiree that was responsible for the only negative encounter I've ever had with the police in my community and I was not at all disappointed to see him go. An officer that would lie outright to crime victims as well as to a suspect has no place in law enforcement, IMO.

Can't there be a truly peaceful movement? Didn't Martin Luther King lead a peaceful movement? That's what we need. Nobody needs to hate a group of people in order to make a situation better for themselves. People need to come together. We actually need people in leadership roles who are truly not biased and want what is best for all people, whether black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, or whatever. All people.

I think we view MLK's movement through rose-colored glasses, removed by time as we all are. It wasn't entirely a peaceful movement. He wanted a peaceful movement, but he didn't have control of every group that shared his goals and there was plenty of unrest in his time. And there were plenty of whites who viewed him as disruptive and extremist at the time. He only became the universally respected, unifying figure we think of him as today in death, when he was no longer upsetting the status quo and demanding change. Now his memory has become sort of a weapon of shame in many cases, wielded by white Americans against blacks who aren't expressing their outrage and fear and desire for change in ways we find acceptable.

 

[gwynne]

MLK protest were peaceful (on his side of things)--peaceful does not mean not bothering anyone at all in any way--really no one pays attention if no one is bothered. Sad but apparently true

On his side of things, yes. I sort of wonder if students are taught in detail about the Civil Rights years, Selma, John Lewis (just one example) and so on.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I honestly mean no offense here, but if that's you in the profile picture, you look "white" to me.

Lol in person you can definitely tell I'm Puerto Rican. Especially when my hair is curly and darker.

 

[Bluestars]

But if minorities are stopped at disproportionate rates and charged with more serious crimes when arrested than their white counterparts, that would necessarily skew those statistics.





I think we view MLK's movement through rose-colored glasses, removed by time as we all are. It wasn't entirely a peaceful movement. He wanted a peaceful movement, but he didn't have control of every group that shared his goals and there was plenty of unrest in his time. And there were plenty of whites who viewed him as disruptive and extremist at the time. He only became the universally respected, unifying figure we think of him as today in death, when he was no longer upsetting the status quo and demanding change. Now his memory has become sort of a weapon of shame in many cases, wielded by white Americans against blacks who aren't expressing their outrage and fear and desire for change in ways we find acceptable.

I don't think everyone uses him as a weapon of shame. Every quote that I have read that he said is inspirational and statements that are peaceful, yet profound. I think people may compare him to other leaders and those leaders are in no way inspiring or peaceful. Here are a few and they do not sound like any leader today.

1. "Faith is taking the first step even when you can't see the whole staircase."
2. "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."
3. "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
4. "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
5. "Only in the darkness can you see the stars."
6. "If you can't fly then run, if you can't run then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward."
7. "Darkness cannot drive out darkness: Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
   
   
8. "Let no man pull you so low as to hate him."
   
   
9. "That old law about 'an eye for an eye' leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing."
10. "There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe nor politic nor popular, but he must take it because his conscience tells him it is right."
11. "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
12. "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
13. "Intelligence plus character--that is the goal of true education."
14. "We must come to see that the end we seek is a society at peace with itself, a society that can live with its conscience."
15. "A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus."
16. "I have decided to stick to love ... Hate is too great a burden to bear."
17. "Everybody can be great ... because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. You don't have to make your subject and verb agree to serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love."
18. "A man who won't die for something is not fit to live."
19. "No one really knows why they are alive until they know what they'd die for."
20. "Forgiveness is not an occasional act; it is a constant attitude."
21. "Those who are not looking for happiness are the most likely to find it, because those who are searching forget that the surest way to be happy is to seek happiness for others."
22. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
23. We must build dikes of courage to hold back the flood of fear.
24. "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
25. "We must accept finite disappointment but never lose infinite hope."
26. "I have a dream that one day little black boys and girls will be holding hands with little white boys and girls."
27. "We must live together as brothers or perish together as fools."
28. "Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals."
29. "People fail to get along because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other."
30. "We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies."
31. "No person has the right to rain on your dreams."

 

[Colleen27]

I've made it known that I'm disgusted that Tamir Rice likely won't get the justice he deserves, that said Rolling Stone is an absolute piece of garbage rag written by political hacks with ZERO credibility.....When one of your political allies goes crazy and shoots up the place you DONT get to deflect and blame the the opposing political party.

But since when does sharing a single broad principal make one an ally? If one Christian murders an abortion doctor, do we condemn the entire pro-life movement for inciting that act? No. When the extremist is a member of the dominant culture or race, we naturally accept him to be an outlier that doesn't represent the group as a whole. That's what the Dallas shooter was - an outlier, someone not formally affiliated with BLM and refused membership in far more extreme/militant black power groups because of his past. Why is BLM responsible for his actions?

I don't think everyone uses him as a weapon of shame. Every quote that I have read that he said is inspirational and statements that are peaceful, yet profound.

I don't think everyone does. But "What would MLK do?" has become such a standard social media response to any objectionable or inconveniencing protest, any angry or bitter remark, that it does feel like a certain segment of white America has co-opted MLK's memory to try to keep black activists in line.

 

[asta]

But if minorities are stopped at disproportionate rates and charged with more serious crimes when arrested than their white counterparts, that would necessarily skew those statistics.



The Guardian, of all places, has an excellent ongoing feature about police killings in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/counted-us-police-killings



And while race is undoubtedly a factor, income is as well. If there is a downside to BLM and the conversations it has provoked, I believe that's where it lies - in framing the problem solely along racial lines and thus obscuring the fact that in many places, poor whites and Hispanics are butting up against many (but certainly not all) of the same problems. That does strip the movement of logical allies, white people who have experienced some of the same abusive policing tactics (being deemed "suspicious" for having a crappy car, getting ticketed to justify stops, dealing with license suspensions and warrants for inability to pay) but who are not sympathetic to what they view as "the race card".



Sometimes it is for reasons that are well understood. Out here in the sticks, it used to be pretty common for our PD's new hires to be experienced officers retired from the Detroit system. Our town and several others in the area changed the practice of hiring DPD retirees, though, after seeing a pattern of increased complaints about and confrontational encounters with officers with that background as compared to locally-based officers. Whether that's a failing of training or the cynicism of working for many years in the inner city, I don't know. But I do know that it was a Detroit retiree that was responsible for the only negative encounter I've ever had with the police in my community and I was not at all disappointed to see him go. An officer that would lie outright to crime victims as well as to a suspect has no place in law enforcement, IMO.



I think we view MLK's movement through rose-colored glasses, removed by time as we all are. It wasn't entirely a peaceful movement. He wanted a peaceful movement, but he didn't have control of every group that shared his goals and there was plenty of unrest in his time. And there were plenty of whites who viewed him as disruptive and extremist at the time. He only became the universally respected, unifying figure we think of him as today in death, when he was no longer upsetting the status quo and demanding change. Now his memory has become sort of a weapon of shame in many cases, wielded by white Americans against blacks who aren't expressing their outrage and fear and desire for change in ways we find acceptable.

You have a good point about the need to include poor people in some of these discussions. I have always felt it is unfair to overlook economic status in the privileges that white people in general might receive. As a southerner it has always bothered me when people assume everyone was a slave owner. There were poor southerners who lived in physical conditions as bad as slaves. But that is another argument that should not distract from the issue at hand.

 

[gwynne]

I don't think everyone does. But "What would MLK do?" has become such a standard social media response to any objectionable or inconveniencing protest, any angry or bitter remark, that it does feel like a certain segment of white America has co-opted MLK's memory to try to keep black activists in line.

Thank you for making this point.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Lol in person you can definitely tell I'm Puerto Rican. Especially when my hair is curly and darker.

Ah, I'd have guessed Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, something along those lines. Guess I was sorta close?

 

[CPanther95]

I don't think everyone does. But "What would MLK do?" has become such a standard social media response to any objectionable or inconveniencing protest, any angry or bitter remark, that it does feel like a certain segment of white America has co-opted MLK's memory to try to keep black activists in line.

I don't care what color the protesters are, or what they are attempting to accomplish. If they illegally block a highway, they should get one warning - and then get arrested. And if it isn't already a felony, it should be.

 

[CPanther95]

Ah, I'd have guessed Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, something along those lines. Guess I was sorta close?

Yep, well within an ocean.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I don't care what color the protesters are, or what they are attempting to accomplish. If they illegally block a highway, they should get one warning - and then get arrested. And if it isn't already a felony, it should be.

I have no idea why that quoted me.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You have a good point about the need to include poor people in some of these discussions. I have always felt it is unfair to overlook economic status in the privileges that white people in general might receive. As a southerner it has always bothered me when people assume everyone was a slave owner. There were poor southerners who lived in physical conditions as bad as slaves. But that is another argument that should not distract from the issue at hand.

There was a comment earlier about growing up not knowing any black people. That was me for the most part. Missouri was a slave state, but my area was settled by Germans & they were anti-slavery. So, there were really no former slaves even in this area once the slaves were freed. And as a rural area, it's not exactly the kind of place people flock to for better opportunities. So, it's taken a loooong time for the population of black people in this area to build.

 

[CPanther95]

I have no idea why that quoted me.

Not sure either - fixed.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Yep, well within an ocean.

LOL

I just meant a lot of Puerto Ricans have Spanish roots

 

[Jdbsfw]

But since when does sharing a single broad principal make one an ally? If one Christian murders an abortion doctor, do we condemn the entire pro-life movement for inciting that act? No. When the extremist is a member of the dominant culture or race, we naturally accept him to be an outlier that doesn't represent the group as a whole. That's what the Dallas shooter was - an outlier, someone not formally affiliated with BLM and refused membership in far more extreme/militant black power groups because of his past. Why is BLM responsible for his actions?

I'm not really arguing your point above, I'm arguing something regarding the hacks at Rolling Stone and their goofy blame game. Internet forums are terrible understanding context and I likely wasn't very clear making my point

 

[disneyjunkie]

Can't there be a truly peaceful movement? Didn't Martin Luther King lead a peaceful movement? That's what we need. Nobody needs to hate a group of people in order to make a situation better for themselves. People need to come together. We actually need people in leadership roles who are truly not biased and want what is best for all people, whether black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, or whatever. All people.

Can we please stop trying to rewrite history .

MLK lead a peaceful movement and was met with hate and violence. Freedom Riders were beat and killed. CHILDREN were killed in a church. MLK's home was bombed. Medgar Evers was murdered in his front yard. MLK was called a race baiter, an agitator...

Let's not pretend a group of non-threatening black (and white)folks walking peaceful and singing spirituals, is what sparked change.
Change came when the images of those nonviolent protesters being beat, sprayed with water hoses, attacked by police dogs....started to show up each night on the evening news.

Change was FORCED upon those who didn't want it. Not one racist person looked at MLK and saw him as anything other that a uppity black who didn't know his place.

There's nothing BLM or any other group can do to change the minds of those who do not believe there is a problem.

 

[pat fan]

MLK lead a peaceful movement and was met with hate and violence. Freedom Riders were beat and killed. CHILDREN were killed in a church. MLK's home was bombed. Medgar Evers was murdered in his front yard. MLK was called a race baiter, an agitator...

Let's not pretend a group of non-threatening black (and white)folks walking peaceful and singing spirituals, is what sparked change.
Change came when the images of those nonviolent protesters being beat, sprayed with water hoses, attacked by police dogs....started to show up each night on the evening news.

Change was FORCED upon those who didn't want it. Not one racist person looked at MLK and saw him as anything other that a uppity black who didn't know his place.

You're making my point. MLK was peaceful, his opposition may not have been, but HIS peaceful replies got his point across. He didn't engage the violence. BLM is acting like the other side of the coin from Kings day. MLK would NEVER have spat on police. NEVER have thrown bricks, or molotav cocktails. Those were thrown at HIM. If he had engaged in ANY of that behavior, he would have been in jail or dead so much sooner. He KNEW it had to be peaceful or it would go nowhere.

 

[disneyjunkie]

No, it was before my time. I don't support blocking roads or doing anything illegal, but I have read some things Martin Luther King said and think that somebody like him might be a good start. The protesters who blocked the bridge and freeway near where I live delayed ambulances getting people to the hospital. That's not cool. Maybe the protests in those days weren't peaceful, but we sure could use some peaceful ones now that would inspire people not divide people.

The protesters in the 60s were peaceful. The people who thought they were lying about the way they were being treated or felt they were just trouble makers stirring the pot, were nor peaceful.

Surely, you have watched documentaries about the Civil Rights movement

 

[disneyjunkie]

You're making my point. MLK was peaceful, his opposition may not have been, but HIS peaceful replies got his point across. He didn't engage the violence. BLM is acting like the other side of the coin from Kings day. MLK would NEVER have spat on police. NEVER have thrown bricks, or molotav cocktails. Those were thrown at HIM. If he had engaged in ANY of that behavior, he would have been in jail or dead so much sooner. He KNEW it had to be peaceful or it would go nowhere.

But his movement didn't change the heart and minds of the average Joe who hated him and what he represented from the start. It did push our elected officials to take action.