"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[ASchwa]

You picked one, out of many questionable acts. Every other instance you haven't even been willing to entertain that an officer was in the wrong.

You want to focus on the specifics of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin, but do not want to see the bigger picture surrounding those incidents.

FTR, I think that the shooting of Michael Brown was justified, just to put that out there. The bigger issue in Ferguson, is the findings of the DOJ reports. The law enforcement system has/had huge flaws that caused the people of Ferguson to be mistrustful of the police in the 1st place. People will never trust the truth of the Michael Brown incident because they see the police there as corrupt and racially biased based on thousands of things that happened prior to the death of Michael Brown.

It is clear that Trayvon Martin was not killed by the police. The issue with the Trayvon Martin case was the entire incident and response to the death of Trayvon Martin. He was an unarmed, black teenager walking home from a store who 1 bigot thought didn't belong in his neighborhood. The law enforcement community automatically accepted Zimmerman's account, even though it was clear that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with him. Trayvon Martin is an excellent example of systemic racism. He was deemed suspicious and approached and ultimately killed by a man for nothing more than being black. Then, after he was killed he was vilified. Every transgression of his life was aired in an attempt to make it seem like he deserved to be killed.

Again you missed what I wrote about Ferguson, Missouri. The short version is I live near NYC. I have lived near there my whole life that included the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. You didn't go into Times Square after nine in the evening, and you didn't go into Central Park after dark. The Police and the Black community had very bad relations. Al Sharpton kept coming with the slogan "no justice, no peace". Sound familiar. After many years and many negotiations it was worked out. I wrote that Ferguson Missouri today was like NYC in those times that I mentioned. They have to find a way to work it out. I never said that the DOJ report was wrong.

Read what JIMMIA had to write about Trayvon Martin. Seems like you missed that also.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

We should never be put in a position where we are in fear of escalating a situation if we don't willingly give up our constitutional rights. If they ask for ID, I'll identify myself. They don't need papers unless I'm being detained for a specific crime I'm suspected of.

I've got no problem with them asking, but they can go fishing elsewhere.

It's not "fear". It's being cooperative. What right am I giving up? My constitutional right not to prove my identity if asked? I can believe that I'm not required to, but who cares, really? This seems like creating a potential problem where there doesn't need to be one. There are enough REAL problems in this world. And the cops' job is hard enough. JMHO, anyway.

 

[CPanther95]

It's not "fear". It's being cooperative. What right am I giving up? My constitutional right not to prove my identity if asked? This seems like creating a potential problem where there doesn't need to be one. There are enough REAL problems in this world. JMHO, anyway.

If a cop approached you while you were walking in front of a shopping center and said, "Ma'am, can I see some ID? I want to run it for warrants." you would just hand it over and wait for him to run you for warrants?

What he asked if you would mind if he searches your home?

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Retired cop's opinion:

I've been in a number of situations like that, and many MUCH worse than that. He had a very minor incident with a bunch of young kids and was in WAY over his head. There was no violence going on, no criminal activity other than some very minor trespassing (maybe). I shudder to think what he might have done in a real emergency.

That officer is an idiot and has no business wearing a badge. If he had done that here in Miami, I would have taken his badge and gun on the spot.

I doubt if the chief thought for two seconds before firing him.

My Dad (retired cop) said the same thing.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

If a cop approached you while you were walking in front of a shopping center and said, "Ma'am, can I see some ID? I want to run it for warrants." you would just hand it over and wait for him to run you for warrants?

I wouldn't equate those two situations. And am not interested in a debate on this, frankly. Was only curious why you were so adamant about not producing ID as a passenger in a traffic stop. Got it. I disagree, but I got it.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Again you missed what I wrote about Ferguson, Missouri. The short version is I live near NYC. I have lived near there my whole life that included the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. You didn't go into Times Square after nine in the evening, and you didn't go into Central Park after dark. The Police and the Black community had very bad relations. Al Sharpton kept coming with the slogan "no justice, no peace". Sound familiar. After many years and many negotiations it was worked out. I wrote that Ferguson Missouri today was like NYC in those times that I mentioned. They have to find a way to work it out. I never said that the DOJ report was wrong.

Read what JIMMIA had to write about Trayvon Martin. Seems like you missed that also.

Except that Ferguson wasn't like that at all - in spite of what was going on with the PD.

 

[cabanafrau]

If a cop approached you while you were walking in front of a shopping center and said, "Ma'am, can I see some ID? I want to run it for warrants." you would just hand it over and wait for him to run you for warrants?

What he asked if you would mind if he searches your home?

To be fair with your comparison here a search of your home without consent absolutely requires a search warrant. A request for identification can be a slightly grayer area and potentially an officer could attempt to make a case for detaining you if you didn't produce it when requested -- not in the case of an officer asking simply to run it for warrants obviously, that's absurd.

 

[roseaster]

I don't think it's ever been demonstrated that it was "clear" that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with Martin.

It is clear he was suspicious of him.
It is clear he followed him.

Everything after that is a lot less clear.

GZ got out of the car. He was, clearly, told on the the police tapes not to get out of the car. There was absolutely no purpose for him getting out of that vehicle.

Again you missed what I wrote about Ferguson, Missouri. The short version is I live near NYC. I have lived near there my whole life that included the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. You didn't go into Times Square after nine in the evening, and you didn't go into Central Park after dark. The Police and the Black community had very bad relations. Al Sharpton kept coming with the slogan "no justice, no peace". Sound familiar. After many years and many negotiations it was worked out. I wrote that Ferguson Missouri today was like NYC in those times that I mentioned. They have to find a way to work it out. I never said that the DOJ report was wrong.

Read what JIMMIA had to write about Trayvon Martin. Seems like you missed that also.

I didn't miss it. I disagree with it. I respect that that is his opinion based on his experiences. I am of a different opinion based on mine. It's okay.

So if you understand the climate in Ferguson you understand why a majority of the people of Ferguson would, automatically, assume that there was bias in the killing of Michael Brown, especially in light of the fact that the facts weren't immediately clear.

Ferguson and Trayvon are symptoms of a much, much larger and ongoing problem. They aren't THE problem or even the start of the problem, but they, well, be the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back."

They aren't perfect examples by any means, but in the Trayvon Martin case, the mere fact that a young, black man walking along a street is suspicious is a very good illustrator of ingrained racism.

 

[ASchwa]

Except that Ferguson wasn't like that at all - in spite of what was going on with the PD.

I know. Michael Brown and the DOJ report are two separate things, but roseaster keeps putting it together. A problem that was started by Eric Holder. I am saying that BLM has to stop using Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown as poster boys for their organization. Until they do, I will consider BLM a hate group that doesn't want a solution to anything.

 

[roseaster]

I know. Michael Brown and the DOJ report are two separate things, but roseaster keeps putting it together. A problem that was started by Eric Holder. I am saying that BLM has to stop using Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown as poster boys for their organization. Until they do, I will consider BLM a hate group that doesn't want a solution to anything.

You are reading what you want into it. You want to vilify BLM and you are finding a reason.

I am saying that the Michael Brown case and the DOJ report are significant to one another in that the reaction to Brown's death may not have been the same if the people of Ferguson and the surrounding communities did not have the relationship with the police that they had/have.

The DOJ report brought out longstanding issues between the people of Ferguson and the police force. If the citizenry had a positive relationship with the police maybe they wouldn't have automatically jumped to the conclusion that the police were corrupt.

I am saying that the reaction of the people is indicative of the distrust that they have of the police.

If my husband is faithful and I trust him and a woman calls asking for him. I believe him when he says it was a colleague who had a question about work. If he repeatedly cheated on me and a woman calls I am suspicious as hell.

Trayvon Martin illustrates ingrained racism. He was deemed suspicious simply because he was black.

I live in a predominately caucasian neighborhood. I'm going to harbor a guess at about 97% white. If I called my local police and said, "There is a man walking down the street and he looks suspicious." I am pretty sure the police would have never taken me seriously if I told them that he is just walking down the street but I don't like the look of him, regardless of his color.

 

[CPanther95]

To be fair with your comparison here a search of your home without consent absolutely requires a search warrant. A request for identification can be a slightly grayer area and potentially an officer could attempt to make a case for detaining you if you didn't produce it when requested -- not in the case of an officer asking simply to run it for warrants obviously, that's absurd.

He can ask for ID - and you need to identify yourself. You don't need to produce your license unless he is detaining you. A passenger not producing a driver's license isn't a reason to detain. If he demands it and makes up some BS "reasonable suspicion" of a crime he suspects you of in order to officially detain you, then you got a pretty dirty cop on your hands and I'd certainly comply. But I'd get all his details and report him later.

You say it's absurd that he'd run it for warrants, but they frequently do. What other reason would he have to demand a driver's license from someone that isn't driving?

And it's really not that "gray". The Supreme Court has ruled on it numerous times. There are subtle differences by state, but we aren't to the point where a government official can stop us without cause and demand to see our official government issued papers.

 

[ASchwa]

GZ got out of the car. He was, clearly, told on the the police tapes not to get out of the car. There was absolutely no purpose for him getting out of that vehicle.



I didn't miss it. I disagree with it. I respect that that is his opinion based on his experiences. I am of a different opinion based on mine. It's okay.

So if you understand the climate in Ferguson you understand why a majority of the people of Ferguson would, automatically, assume that there was bias in the killing of Michael Brown, especially in light of the fact that the facts weren't immediately clear.

Ferguson and Trayvon are symptoms of a much, much larger and ongoing problem. They aren't THE problem or even the start of the problem, but they, well, be the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back."

They aren't perfect examples by any means, but in the Trayvon Martin case, the mere fact that a young, black man walking along a street is suspicious is a very good illustrator of ingrained racism.

People in Ferguson should have waited for the facts instead of burning their own city. All they heard was the lie that Dorian Johnson put out and then ruined businesses and lives for a common thief.

I really don't know about Trayvon Martin but it wasn't law enforcement officials.

 

[luvsJack]

I think that some people (not necessarily here) want to vilify BLM, but there are many who just want to vilify the police.

 

[roseaster]

People in Ferguson should have waited for the facts instead of burning their own city. All they heard was the lie that Dorian Johnson put out and then ruined businesses and lives for a common thief.

I really don't know about Trayvon Martin but it wasn't law enforcement officials.

Yes, of course they should have waited. My point is that the long standing problems that existed between the citizens and the police in Ferguson put them in the mindset to not trust the police, which is why many rushed to judgment.

The reaction to Brown's death was a symptom of a larger problem.

The police were not the cause of Trayvon's death, George Zimmerman was. The fact that Trayvon was ever "suspicious" in the 1st place is another example of racism ingrained in our society.

Now my baby is awake, so I must see to her and feeding the rest of my tribe.

 

[Hikergirl]

Did he kill anybody? Did he shoot his gun indescriminately? Did he paralyze that girl? As I understand, she had a few bruises. Those young men came up behind him in the video you can see it. That was the only time he took out his gun. BLM claimed he was out of control, but where is the evidence he was out of control? She was resisting being handcuffed, instead of being cooperative she dug in resisting. BLM was there day one, so don't tell me about me being prejudiced or racist. I watched and read about the coverage of McKinney Texas. The hatred that came out of the Black community over what happened was appalling. The articles that kept saying about how history was repeating itself, how Blacks were not allowed to swim in community pools. This was a gated community, with bylaws that home owners have to abide by those laws. The home owner, Tatiana Rhodes didn't ask permission for a pool party. The security guards were the ones who called police. The video doesn't show what exactly happened.

I didn't say you were racist I said you were blinded by your own prejudices. You are bringing up the fact that the woman didn't ask for permission for a pool party, or that she is grooming that teen to be a prostitute. Why does any of that matter? All that matters is how that police officer responded to a mouthy teen. You are judging (and justifying) the police officers actions based on the future employment of that teen and the fact that the homeowner didn't ask the HOA for pernission for a party and that BLM was there. So yes I think you are blinded by your preconceived notions about those people. The only people that matter here are that teen and that police officer, and the video of what happened between them speaks for itself.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

 

[phillyprincess39]

What really grinds my gears about this whole thread is ...ok so the black lives matter movement is wrong what is the alternative?..what is the solution? what is your suggestion on how to make it better? What would you like to see done differently? Other than trying to find a solution to a problem what really is the point of this thread

 

[phillyprincess39]

Getting arrested is often an important public relations component of a demonstration. The person being arrested (usually leaders of the demonstration) wants to "make a stand" for the publicity benefit. The police negotiate and cooperate in the choreography of the whole thing, usually as a means to defusing the situation and bringing the demonstration to a peaceful close.

Symbolic arrests don't always work as planned. We had a situation in Miami many years ago during a migrant workers strike where four symbolic arrests were negotiated (Caesar Chavez and three of his top people). A line was literally drawn on the ground, the TV cameras were positioned, and when all was ready Chavez and the others stepped across the line and were arrested. You've heard about the 10% that don't get the memo? About 90% of the demonstrators didn't get the memo! More than 200 people stepped across the line and were arrested and had to spend the night in jail because the organization didn't have enough money to bail them out. It was a mess, but everybody just laughed it off and worked harder on communications at future demonstrations.

This makes me think do think the

I have a question for those of you upset about police behavior in the shooting in Minnesota. Have any of you seen any evidence about what happened to cause the police officer to shoot? Everyone has seen the girlfriend's video after this terrible incident. We have heard her side. We have heard testimonials that tell that he was a nice guy. He looks like a nice guy with a beautiful smile. Those are heartbreaking. But what I am looking for is any evidence that shows what happened leading up to the shooting because at our very foundation is the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Just because you are a police officer does not mean this fundamental right is suspended.

That is my problem with the marchers. To my knowledge none of them have proof. They are seeking to replace the rule of law with mob mentality. We should be better than that.

Um nothing lead up to the events of the shooting unless you mean he was driving while black and had a broken tail light...oh he did have a legal gun and permit oh he didnt have a police record and gasp he wasnt a thug....I know hard to believe right...but give it sometime Im pretty sure if keep digging we'll learn he took gum from a store with out paying when he was 12.

 

[ASchwa]

You are reading what you want into it. You want to vilify BLM and you are finding a reason.

I am saying that the Michael Brown case and the DOJ report are significant to one another in that the reaction to Brown's death may not have been the same if the people of Ferguson and the surrounding communities did not have the relationship with the police that they had/have.

The DOJ report brought out longstanding issues between the people of Ferguson and the police force. If the citizenry had a positive relationship with the police maybe they wouldn't have automatically jumped to the conclusion that the police were corrupt.

I am saying that the reaction of the people is indicative of the distrust that they have of the police.

If my husband is faithful and I trust him and a woman calls asking for him. I believe him when he says it was a colleague who had a question about work. If he repeatedly cheated on me and a woman calls I am suspicious as hell.

Trayvon Martin illustrates ingrained racism. He was deemed suspicious simply because he was black.

I live in a predominately caucasian neighborhood. I'm going to harbor a guess at about 97% white. If I called my local police and said, "There is a man walking down the street and he looks suspicious." I am pretty sure the police would have never taken me seriously if I told them that he is just walking down the street but I don't like the look of him, regardless of his color.

A person killed by a lie is a hate crime. The slogan "hands up, don't shoot" is a lie. It didn't happen. Instead of admitting that Brown was a criminal, and stop using that slogan, it is constantly heard. Brown's name is used as a miscarriage of justice, which it wasn't. As I have said before, Blacks were killed because of lies in the past, white police officers are being targeted the same way. If you don't see any problem with using a slogan proven to be a lie then I think there can be no discussion between us. Just learn history, and hope that your children are never caught up in situation where a lie took their lives. It is happening too much in our lifetime where truth is being hammered down by lies and people thinking it is ok.

 

[asta]

What really grinds my gears about this whole thread is ...ok so the black lives matter movement is wrong what is the alternative?..what is the solution? what is your suggestion on how to make it better? What would you like to see done differently? Other than trying to find a solution to a problem what really is the point of this thread

I have a few ideas. There was an excellent link given earlier in this thread that referred to an incident where a white police officer shot and killed a white man. The video in that link had a very reasoned discussion about the need to train our police officers in how to deal with pursuit. They point out that a lot of people flee the police for very minor things and end up in violent confrontations. I don't know what the specific training but study needs to be focused on that. We also need to get the word out about the need to be compliant. It is hard for me to understand how everyone does not already know to do that but apparently the message is not getting through. In my case even though I had blonde, blue eyed children they were sat down before driving age and told how to behave if stopped. Not just minority children need to get this message.

And lastly, how can we get thru to the public and media to stop overreacting to videos that only tell the partial story? We have seen again and again people responding emotionally then becoming entrenched and not believing the full story when the facts come out. I will be condemned for this but I have watched the videos today of prior behavior of someone involved. The behavior sickened me and would definitely cause me to doubt their version. If that makes me a horrible person so be it. I only hope the Dept of Children's Services gets involved.