"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[ASchwa]

So you are saying that it is okay for police to use excessive force as long as they don't cause death or permanent or serious injury?

It is okay for police officers to be out of control, as long as their lack of control doesn't cause death or permanent or serious injury?

Why are you continually looking for justification for all police actions?

Police are people. Some are great, most are good, a few are bad and a few are incompetent. Police are NOT above the law. Actually, because they are charged to uphold the law, they should be held at a higher standard.

Apparently you missed my opinion on Akai Gurley. No surprise. I object to BLM because they use lies and that caused the assassination of police officers. Until they stop using Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown as poster boys, they are a hateful group that will destroy lives that didn't deserve it.

 

[ASchwa]

The front roll comes to mind.

He tripped, but apparently you didn't see that.

 

[L&Lfan]

There's no way you can think the DIS( a predominantly white, middle class, conservative group) is representative of how the rest of the country views this.

They may be majority white, (upper) middle class, female (as other posters pointed out), but I don't consider the majority to be CLOSE to conservative (based on what I've read on this and other threads over the years).

 

[FlightlessDuck]

He tripped, but apparently you didn't see that.

It wasn't clear to me he tripped, but ok, I'll say that's true.

 

[cabanafrau]

Again, a few things about being dismissive.

When people of color are saying that they have been targeted by police and coming back and saying things like, "Well I got stopped for being in an authorized area on a military base," (which is, BTW, a wholly different thing) you are dismissing that this was this person's experience and that it was relevant to them. It is like me saying, "I was diagnosed with cancer, I have 6 months to live," and another person coming back with, "I have high blood pressure, I have to take medicine for the rest of my life." It isn't the same experience, but it is telling the persona that their experiences and emotions regarding it are trivial.

I think that every single person on here, and most in reality believes that there is never an excuse to target police officers. Ever. and that the whack job that did was dead wrong and that killing him was the right answer given the situation. What people are questioning is the use of force, often deadly, in much more questionable situations. The truth of the matter is that black men are, statistically, more likely to be subject to use of force than caucasian men. White people make up 77% of the population, black people 13%. While in sheer number, of course, more white people are shot by the police, but if you look at the percentages in terms of the population, black men vastly outnumber white people.

The difference between how minorities teach their children to interact with the police is this: While all people teach their children to be respectful, as they should, in saying "sir" minorities HAVE to teach their children to ONLY say "yes, sir" and ask for a parent or a lawyer. They have to teach their children to act meek so that they are perceived as less of a threat. This is sad. We should all be able to teach our children that police are helpers. That they are there to protect them, but for minorities it is a sad reality that police officers frequently aren't that.

I think that most people will agree that the majority of police officers aren't overtly racist. They aren't suiting up and saying, "I'm gonna shoot me a {insert racial epithet here} today." I think that what most people are saying is that prejudice is so ingrained in our consciousness that many people automatically see minorities as more of a threat than white people.

People are seeing the #blacklivesmatter slogan as divisive because that is how they want to see it. The sentiment behind that slogan is not that ONLY black lives matter, it is more "Hey, remember, black lives matter, too." Look at it this way. If your child is having trouble with math in school and you hire him a tutor to help him with math, you are not saying that he can forget about English and science, and social studies, you are saying, right now, math needs a little extra work.

As with any movement you are going to have people that take it to the extreme. People who lose control, it just is what it is, unfortunately. I am not condoning it and those people who are violent and destructive should be prosecuted. The reason, though, demonstrations are needed is because minorities have been saying for years, "this is happening, we need to change this." and no one is listening. You can talk all you want, and try to educate, but if people aren't listening and/or arguing that you are wrong, or dismissing your experiences or feelings, it goes nowhere. Demonstrations bring to the public's eye what is going on. Violence is never the answer, but public demonstration has it's place.

There are lots of movements going on in minority communities. Demonstrations to stop gun violence, gun buy back programs, neighborhood watches, block parties to raise funds for crime and gang prevention programs. You don't see these on the national news because news is a for profit thing now and these stories don't rile people up and sell copy or viewership.

The Las Vegas police department went through training as a result of these types of complaints. Incidents of use of force are down 30 some odd percent.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/l...egas-police-shootings-down-department-reforms

The problem is people have to admit there is a problem. Stop looking for excuses or justifications as to why these things are happening and admit, no matter how painful, that these problems exist in our society.

Truthfully, police need to be held to a higher standard. They are charged with the responsibility for people's lives. If you are in the wrong state of mind and you work at a deli, someone gets the wrong sandwich. If you are in the wrong state of mind and you are an officer, someone dies. These things are not equal.

Interestingly I frequently encounter law enforcement personnel for many different purposes as part of my job. I taught my children as teens to absolutely comply with law enforcement, to identify themselves and say they were a minor and couldn't say anymore than they wanted their parent and a lawyer if they were to be questioned. My children are not minorities. When they came of age I told them if they are in a situation where they are to be questioned by law enforcement they are to say nothing except they want to speak to an attorney.

That's simply because I know the power trip mindset of many law enforcement officers, both from working with so many and encounters I've had personally. We came home one time many years ago to find our car that was legally parked on the street had been crashed into. Luckily my mother had been at our home at the time and had gone out to speak to the driver and got information. This was before the age of cell phones had taken over and my mother didn't know my husband's cell phone number anyway or how to reach us. We had to call the police when we came home because we needed an incident report number for our insurance company to be able to work with the driver's insurance company. One of the police officers was actually rude and aggressive with us for reasons unbeknownst to us to this day, even briefly refusing to write up anything and then not wanting to give us the report number. His partner tried to briefly intervene to get us the number but got nowhere either. We succeeded only because I mentioned to my husband in front of the officers that I thought for sure his cousin would be able to retrieve the number for us if he called him. His cousin is a detective with the department. Magically we had a card in our hands with the number on it within 20 seconds -- and very angry face on the officer. Mind you, this is a situation where we are obviously residents of the community this officer served, we have white faces and so did the officer, we were not involved in causing the incident, we were calm and businesslike, explaining to their faces why we had called for them to come.

Some officers can be aggressive buggers for reasons no one understands to anybody, at anytime, or even all the time. I'd like to see all of that type lose their badges. So would many other officers, prosecutors and judges.

Edited to add: We have to be careful with ideas like what I've bolded above. I understand where you're coming from and I agree in a certain sense, but we have to be careful that idea doesn't become too big, broad and unwieldy. Example, in a court of law jurors are specifically instructed that they are not to give more weight to the testimony of a police officer simply because they are a police officer. Testimony of a police officer is to be evaluated the same way you evaluate the testimony of any other witness.

We want to set high standards of ethics and behavior for our police because we in turn empower them to enforce the rule of law over us. Incorrectly handled and we could all wind up living in a police state, being ruled by them.

 

[kamik86]

I am a middle class white male living in an area that is about 98% white. I have no idea what it's like to be an urban black youth. But I can give one example of a story told to me by my white son:

My son and some of his friends were walking around a nearby "outside mall". A woman had complained to a police officer that somebody stole her phone. The police officer stopped and talked to only one of my son's friends: the African-American teen that was walking with them. None of these kids were doing anything wrong, and the boy in question didn't have the phone.

This would be a great example if we knew that that woman hadn't said that an African American teen stole her phone. In which case he would be the only one that met the description given to him.

I don't doubt that even with no description what you said could have happened though. I was told a very similar story where the 911 records document a witness describing the criminal as a white man and the police arrested a VERY dark black man. Even in dim light and allowing for witnesses often being mistaken there is no way you could possibly mistake this man as fitting the description. This case was found to be descrimination and the officer was punished (in this case he was looking to stick anything he possibly could to someone he had a bunch of preivous issues with).

 

[FlightlessDuck]

This would be a great example if we knew that that woman hadn't said that an African American teen stole her phone. In which case he would be the only one that met the description given to him.

That's true. I don't think the woman provided a description, although she might have. It's been a few months so the story isn't fresh in my mind anymore.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I found this inspiring -- to see real leadership that tells it like it is -- so thought I'd share... http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/...e-asking-cops-to-do-too-much-in-this-country/

Dallas Police Chief David Brown strikes me as an INCREDIBLE LEADER -- sorely lacking in this country today!! This press conference from today is worth watching in its entirety if you can find it -- a lot of WISDOM and potential SOLUTIONS for anyone truly interested and willing to listen.

He TALKED STRAIGHT (and got specific) about how: "We're asking cops to do too much in this country... Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve."

Dallas Police Chief Brown shares his story: "I probably wouldn’t protest…I’d get involved & do something about it."

Dallas Police Chief’s advice to young black men: "Become a part of the solution, serve your communities... Don't be part of the problem... we're hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in. We’ll put you in your neighborhood – we will help you resolve some of the problems you are protesting about."

"All the crap we gotta take as police officers, the satisfaction you get from serving – much more gratifying."

“Leaders in my position need to put their careers on the line to make sure we do things right”

On open carry of guns like AR-15s: "We don't know who the good guy is versus who the bad guy is if everybody starts shooting."

 

[Gumbo4x4]

We all know that the demographic most likely to die at the hands of police is young, black men.

We should also point out that while young, white men are far less likely to die at the hand of police than are young, black men, they are also far MORE likely to die at the hands of police than are women of any color. Year to date, roughly 260 white men compared to 25 women total (all colors combined).

 

[CPanther95]

I don't think any white guy that has spent any fair amount of time with a variety of different black guys doubts that there are inequities - or that "Driving While Black" is a real thing. We used to joke that "Black guys can drive at night, but during the day, you better have a white driver if there is a practice or team meeting scheduled" - and it wasn't really a joke because we actually tried to live by that if at all possible. I did a lot a daytime driving.

The only experience I have directly was when I was pulled over with 3 black passengers. I wasn't pulled over a ton as a teen - especially with passengers in the car - so at the time I didn't realize how out of the ordinary this was, but the police officer asked for driver's licenses from everyone in the car. That's the only time in my almost 35 years of driving where passengers were asked for ID. Today, I'd never turn over my driver's license if I was a passenger - but I know these guys would do so even if they felt it wasn't required because they'd feel it isn't worth the hassle - or danger - that it might cause.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Today, I'd never turn over my driver's license if I was a passenger

Why not? I wouldn't see any reason not to...

 

[roseaster]

Apparently you missed my opinion on Akai Gurley. No surprise. I object to BLM because they use lies and that caused the assassination of police officers. Until they stop using Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown as poster boys, they are a hateful group that will destroy lives that didn't deserve it.

You picked one, out of many questionable acts. Every other instance you haven't even been willing to entertain that an officer was in the wrong.

You want to focus on the specifics of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin, but do not want to see the bigger picture surrounding those incidents.

FTR, I think that the shooting of Michael Brown was justified, just to put that out there. The bigger issue in Ferguson, is the findings of the DOJ reports. The law enforcement system has/had huge flaws that caused the people of Ferguson to be mistrustful of the police in the 1st place. People will never trust the truth of the Michael Brown incident because they see the police there as corrupt and racially biased based on thousands of things that happened prior to the death of Michael Brown.

It is clear that Trayvon Martin was not killed by the police. The issue with the Trayvon Martin case was the entire incident and response to the death of Trayvon Martin. He was an unarmed, black teenager walking home from a store who 1 bigot thought didn't belong in his neighborhood. The law enforcement community automatically accepted Zimmerman's account, even though it was clear that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with him. Trayvon Martin is an excellent example of systemic racism. He was deemed suspicious and approached and ultimately killed by a man for nothing more than being black. Then, after he was killed he was vilified. Every transgression of his life was aired in an attempt to make it seem like he deserved to be killed.

 

[CPanther95]

Why not? I wouldn't see any reason not to...

You don't need a driver's license to ride in a car.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You picked one, out of many questionable acts. Every other instance you haven't even been willing to entertain that an officer was in the wrong.

You want to focus on the specifics of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin, but do not want to see the bigger picture surrounding those incidents.

FTR, I think that the shooting of Michael Brown was justified, just to put that out there. The bigger issue in Ferguson, is the findings of the DOJ reports. The law enforcement system has/had huge flaws that caused the people of Ferguson to be mistrustful of the police in the 1st place. People will never trust the truth of the Michael Brown incident because they see the police there as corrupt and racially biased based on thousands of things that happened prior to the death of Michael Brown.

It is clear that Trayvon Martin was not killed by the police. The issue with the Trayvon Martin case was the entire incident and response to the death of Trayvon Martin. He was an unarmed, black teenager walking home from a store who 1 bigot thought didn't belong in his neighborhood. The law enforcement community automatically accepted Zimmerman's account, even though it was clear that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with him. Trayvon Martin is an excellent example of systemic racism. He was deemed suspicious and approached and ultimately killed by a man for nothing more than being black. Then, after he was killed he was vilified. Every transgression of his life was aired in an attempt to make it seem like he deserved to be killed.

I don't think it's ever been demonstrated that it was "clear" that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with Martin.

It is clear he was suspicious of him.
It is clear he followed him.

Everything after that is a lot less clear.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You don't need a driver's license to ride in a car.

Oddly enough, the only time that's ever happened to me, 2 of us in the car were 15 & had no I.D. This was also pre-curfew days.

 

[gwynne]

You don't need a driver's license to ride in a car.

While I see your point, I would give it to them. I would not want to do anything or say anything that might escalate the situation.
Whatever I can do to keep the temperature down and the interaction reasonably pleasant is important to me.

 

[gwynne]

I don't think it's ever been demonstrated that it was "clear" that Zimmerman initiated an altercation with Martin.

It is clear he was suspicious of him.
It is clear he followed him.

Everything after that is a lot less clear.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Z was just doing what he always does then, and he continues it periodically year after year. Aren't we due for one of his run ins about now?
Seems like he pops up about every 6 months.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

You don't need a driver's license to ride in a car.

Obviously. But if I was a passenger in a car stopped by officers and they asked for ID, I would hand it to them if I had it. Again -- I don't see any reason not to, except to be uncooperative.

 

[JimMIA]

How was he out of control? Sitting on someone who is resisting being handcuffed is not out of control. For about 10 minutes he was the only officer on the scene. Read about it, find out what was going on before you make a judgement like that.

Retired cop's opinion:

I've been in a number of situations like that, and many MUCH worse than that. He had a very minor incident with a bunch of young kids and was in WAY over his head. There was no violence going on, no criminal activity other than some very minor trespassing (maybe). I shudder to think what he might have done in a real emergency.

That officer is an idiot and has no business wearing a badge. If he had done that here in Miami, I would have taken his badge and gun on the spot.

I doubt if the chief thought for two seconds before firing him.

 

[CPanther95]

While I see your point, I would give it to them. I would not want to do anything or say anything that might escalate the situation.
Whatever I can do to keep the temperature down and the interaction reasonably pleasant is important to me.

We should never be put in a position where we are in fear of escalating a situation if we don't willingly give up our constitutional rights. If they ask for ID, I'll identify myself. They don't need papers unless I'm being detained for a specific crime I'm suspected of.

I've got no problem with them asking, but they can go fishing elsewhere.