"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[JimMIA]

... he overreacted to the situation at hand. He didn't give the guy the benefit of any doubt. Again, until the lawyer explains (or someone else) what he meant by "presence of a gun" being the reason he pulled the trigger 4 or 5 times, we don't know.

Please watch the video Geoff_M posted above. It's a community activist going through police shoot-don't shoot training. Learn what he learned.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Well, if the report of "thinking he was a robbery suspect" is true (and I believe it is from the police radio reports which have been released), then the officer believed him to possibly be a person who robbed a convenience store at gunpoint. So. he's nervous, perhaps, as he approaches the vehicle. I don't for one minute believe he INTENDED to execute the victim, but that he overreacted to the situation at hand. He didn't give the guy the benefit of any doubt. Again, until the lawyer explains (or someone else) what he meant by "presence of a gun" being the reason he pulled the trigger 4 or 5 times, we don't know.

Yeah, benefit of the doubt.
I also want to point out, that armed robbery was days earlier. It's not like we're talking about something that happened super recently and the car or anything else matched a description. It appears to be well that guy had dreads and a broad nose so he might be one of the guys that robbed a store ( right, a store? I don't remember) a few days ago.
I can't imagine being pulled over because a few days ago a red head with a ( whatever describes my nose) robbed a store.

 

[Poohforyou]

I listen to the leaders and spokespeople for BLM. Cornel West, who Bernie Sanders nominated to make The Democratic Party position, is Antisemitic, and anti police. Listen to the hate he spews and the non factual rhetoric that he repeats. He is one of the leaders of BLM. I don't paint things with a broad stroke, but continuing the lie hands up, don't shoot is incitement and is disgusting. Your the one with your head in the sand. Just because there were some demonstrations that were peaceful, still doesn't make it right that 5 officers lost their lives.

I didn't say that someone was right because others agree with him, I said that there were parts in Wikipedia that were consistent with what the poster had said. Not every picture is photoshopped.

Maybe your not a BLM cheerleader, but you believe them hook, line and sinker.

No, I don't believe them hook, line and sinker. It is never right for an innocent person regardless of race to lose their life. By innocent I mean anyone who isn't obviously in the midst of committing a violent / deadly crime.

I'm just so tired of all the hate on both sides of the aisle and across the racial divide. I don't hate because of race, religion or orientation. I hate those who hate.

 

[ASchwa]

You can't take things and just put them in a vacuum though. That seems to happen often with Ferguson. The shooting of Michael Brown may have been the spark but there was a powder keg built up long before that. Thelongstanding abuses of power there helped set the stage for Ferguson. It's not like everything there was fine and dandy and people just randomly got upset over that shooting. I think that point often gets lost
You can look at Michael Brown's shooting and think people just jumped to conclusions and/or overreacted but the bigger question should be why did they do that? What was going on in that community that citizen would react that way? The DOJ report shed a huge light on the why but instead of understanding the bigger problem it just gets dismissed as an overreaction or false narrative.

I live near NYC, I lived through the 70s, 80s and 90s. In that time, except for New Years Eve, you stayed out of Times Square by 9 in the evening. Central Park you stayed out of when it got dark. I remember going to Penn Station and walking around the bums who were sleeping wherever they could. You had to walk with purpose or you would be mugged. Race relations were in a constant state of unrest. We had what was called the Crown Heights Riots, we constantly had Al Sharpton lead marches through communities because this or that Black man was either killed or beaten and the relations between police and the Black community was at an all time low. Sound familiar?

I have always said that Ferguson, Missouri was like what NYC was in those decades and that what was going on had to be worked out. There had to be dialogue. The communities had to come together and work out their differences. That was before the riots took over Ferguson. The DOJ report did nothing for race relations, because they couldn't find that Darren Wilson hadn't violated the civil rights of Michael Brown they tore down the police department in the same report. Instead of trying to heal the community, Eric Holder made it more difficult.

 

[JoeA]

In Minnesota, there's no requirement to notify the officer if you are legally carrying.

If you inform him anyway, you certainly should keep your hands on the wheel until you are instructed otherwise.

I live in CO and there used to be a database of CCW holders so the police pretty much knew you had a CCW before they got to the car. Problem was, the database was incomplete and had so many errors it was pretty useless but it did put the officers on high alert when approaching your vehicle. The database is "no longer" but it's still good practice to keep your hands on the wheel until told otherwise!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You can't take things and just put them in a vacuum though. That seems to happen often with Ferguson. The shooting of Michael Brown may have been the spark but there was a powder keg built up long before that. Thelongstanding abuses of power there helped set the stage for Ferguson. It's not like everything there was fine and dandy and people just randomly got upset over that shooting. I think that point often gets lost
You can look at Michael Brown's shooting and think people just jumped to conclusions and/or overreacted but the bigger question should be why did they do that? What was going on in that community that citizen would react that way? The DOJ report shed a huge light on the why but instead of understanding the bigger problem it just gets dismissed as an overreaction or false narrative.

Ferguson was a peaceful, blue collar neighborhood. It's never been the scary part of town. I know a lot of people who've lived there over the years, many quite recently. There was no powder keg.

A large percentage of the more violent protesters who were arrested weren't even from Ferguson. Micheal Brown wasn't from Ferguson - he went to high school in Wellston (which, unlike Ferguson IS a rough neighborhood). Roughly 25% of Ferguson adults have college degrees. Unemployment was fairly low.

And yes, Ferguson PD has always been primarily white despite the citizenry being only 30% white. But, as both sides of this debate have pointed out, changing the racial makeup of the police force doesn't equate to fewer dead black kids.

 

[Bluestars]

I think Rudy Giuliani said it well when he said: "When you talk about Black Lives Matter, the black young boy who's killed by another black young boy is just as dead as the black young boy killed by the police officer," he told Williams, adding that protests lead to “divisiveness and anti-police rhetoric."

He also said: "I also recognize that 75 percent of the murder victims in New York City are black. The police have to be present in the black community."

He made his police force multi-racial, multi-ethnic police department and not a majority white police department. I think more black officers need to be in areas where there are a high population of black people. I also think enforcement isn't the root of the problem. The root of the problem is the way these children are raised in an environment with high crime, ineffective education and programs for youth, and high poverty. I think there needs to be productive programs in place to encourage the participation of parents with their children and in their children's education and activities. Focus needs to be on providing programs to make sure these children and their parents are given the opportunities to succeed.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Ferguson was a peaceful, blue collar neighborhood. It's never been the scary part of town. I know a lot of people who've lived there over the years, many quite recently. There was no powder keg.

A large percentage of the more violent protesters who were arrested weren't even from Ferguson. Micheal Brown wasn't from Ferguson - he went to high school in Wellston (which, unlike Ferguson IS a rough neighborhood). Roughly 25% of Ferguson adults have college degrees. Unemployment was fairly low.

And yes, Ferguson PD has always been primarily white despite the citizenry being only 30% white. But, as both sides of this debate have pointed out, changing the racial makeup of the police force doesn't equate to fewer dead black kids.

Read the DOJ report on Ferguson. Being a powder keg doesn't mean it's the scary part of town. It means there were lots of problems that weren't being addressed and just building frustration, resentment and mistrust.
Oh let me guess, you don't trust the DOJ report...

 

[JoeA]

Well in the video the girlfriend clearly says to the cop that he was reaching for his id as he was told to do. It sounds like a no win. Keep your hands on the wheel and you are refusing to give the cop your id as instructed. Try to get your id as instructed and he gets spooked that you're going for you're gun.

That is not correct. She said, "...and he let the officer know that he had a firearm, and he was reaching for his wallet". He was never "clearly" told to do anything. I may be making an assumption, but it sounds like he said he had a gun and then went for the wallet.

I don't see when he was instructed by the police to get his wallet. Like I said, keep your hands where they can be seen and don't reach for anything until instructed to do so. Let the police dictate the flow of movements in these situations.

 

[Geoff_M]

I think Rudy Giuliani said it well when he said: "When you talk about Black Lives Matter, the black young boy who's killed by another black young boy is just as dead as the black young boy killed by the police officer," he told Williams, adding that protests lead to “divisiveness and anti-police rhetoric."

In the story about our local NAACP president's statements about the Dallas shootings and the two other shootings that precipitated them, she adds that she has already started the process of "coaching" her now 10-year-old son on how to interact with police, presumably for his own protection. She then added "It grieves my heart that even when I taught him to obtain permission from an officer before he reaches for his license, that that does not even work." When you consider the relative threats to the life of a black youth in this country today, the complete lack of perspective in her sentiments is breath-taking.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Read the DOJ report on Ferguson. Being a powder keg doesn't mean it's the scary part of town. It means there were lots of problems that weren't being addressed and just building frustration, resentment and mistrust.
Oh let me guess, you don't trust the DOJ report...

I believe such problems exist, but they were entirely overblown in the report. Yes, I trust the opinions of people who live(d) there (black & white) much more than a DOJ report.

And again, the riots didn't start until the outsiders showed up.

 

[sunshinehighway]

That is not correct. She said, "...and he let the officer know that he had a firearm, and he was reaching for his wallet". He was never "clearly" told to do anything. I may be making an assumption, but it sounds like he said he had a gun and then went for the wallet.

I don't see when he was instructed by the police to get his wallet. Like I said, keep your hands where they can be seen and don't reach for anything until instructed to do so. Let the police dictate the flow of movements in these situations.

The girlfriend says he was getting is id like you instructed him to do ( you being the cop)

 

[Bluestars]

In the story about our local NAACP president's statements about the Dallas shootings and the two other shootings that precipitated them, she adds that she has already started the process of "coaching" her now 10-year-old son on how to interact with police, presumably for his own protection. She then added "It grieves my heart that even when I taught him to obtain permission from an officer before he reaches for his license, that that does not even work." When you consider the relative threats to the life of a black youth in this country today, the complete lack of perspective in her sentiments is breath-taking.

I think the only person who can truly understand the feelings of a black person being approached by an officer is another black person. That's why I think more black officers are needed in areas with high black populations. The last time I got pulled over (which was the only time in decades) it was due to a tag that I had unknowingly let expire. I was very nervous and I am not black, so I can't imagine what it would be like to be black and feel targeted. I think only another black person can truly understand.

I also believe the majority of police officers are trying to do the best job possible to protect the lives of all people and they need to have the support of the community. There are bad people in general. That does not make an entire group of people bad, nor should it. Nobody wants to be judged by the horrible actions of one person. I do think everyone needs to be taught to fully cooperate with police officers so that the officer does not feel like his life is in danger. Resisting arrest is never a good thing.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

That is not correct. She said, "...and he let the officer know that he had a firearm, and he was reaching for his wallet". He was never "clearly" told to do anything. I may be making an assumption, but it sounds like he said he had a gun and then went for the wallet.

I don't see when he was instructed by the police to get his wallet. Like I said, keep your hands where they can be seen and don't reach for anything until instructed to do so. Let the police dictate the flow of movements in these situations.

That's the way I read it as well. I'd like some clarity on that point.

"IF" the driver did take it upon himself to reach for his wallet after announcing he was armed, I wonder if he's previous smooth interactions with police made him complacent.

Just an idle thought. My gut still says the officer overreacted, but again I was not there.

 

[suebeelin]

Nate silver crunched some numbers. Being black in the US has the same mortality rate as living in rawanda. Yup.

RAWANDA.

Imagine growing up worried that you or any of your male friends or acquaintances will be more likely to die by virtue of their skin color. That just stinks.

 

[longboard55]

University of Southern California is interesting case. It's a beautiful campus, if you see a campus in a movie or on tv it's prolly usc. But is also smack dab in the middle of a black urban area. But usc treats the community with high respect. Campus security will never harass a young black kid on campus. Everyone is welcome. The result is no problems with the community. No graffiti. During the riots all around was burning but usc was untouched. Interesting isn't it

 

[sunshinehighway]

I believe such problems exist, but they were entirely overblown in the report. Yes, I trust the opinions of people who live(d) there (black & white) much more than a DOJ report.

And again, the riots didn't start until the outsiders showed up.

Overblown? I have a link to an opinion piece about the report. It was from a very conservative leaning site so I don't want to link it because I don't like linking obviously leaning sites ( either way). I think it does do a good job of taking the DOJ out of the equation for people who don't quite trust their intentions and using PD documents to show just how bad the situation was. It might give you a different look at the report.

 

[asta]

It appears that I'm in the ever decreasing minority of people, thanks to things like the Internet Outrage Culture, that feels we all are better served by waiting for a more complete set of facts to emerge before becoming emotionally invested in a belief about what did or didn't happen in a given situation. The danger in not following this approach is that it encourages people to project into gaps what they "just know" really happened or triggered an incident, and there's a real tendency to ignore additional information that might not support an initially invested position. BLM and other "social justice warrior" groups, fueled by the Internet and "trial by video", have taken this notion to "11." Without a doubt, there are criminal police abuses against minorities. It would be silly to try and claim otherwise. But it is reckless to try and say you have the whole picture of something based on a simple 30-second video. With regard to the shootings in NOLA and Minnesota, were these criminal actions by the police? Perhaps, but we need a whole set of facts to even try to make that assessment. Personally, I can see both being found to be a criminal action, or one of them, or none of them (though less likely).

With regard to the NOLA shooting in particular, I think as more information (and a 2nd more clear video) has surfaced in recent days, I think this case in particular is less clear. The deceased was an armed man, who though on the ground was still resisting arrest (after the police had confirmed that he was armed with a gun), and may have still had a free arm, and was given warning. I'm not an expert on use of force protocols, but that may have been sufficient to use deadly force in such a scenario. But the problem we have, as I see it, is that based on the initial reports and video, we have groups like BLM as well as elected officials (up to and including the President) making pronouncements about both shootings that leave little or no room to consider that either shooting could have just justified. Just yesterday the President of our local NAACP issued a statement in the wake of the five murders of police officers in Dallas that, while condemning the murder of police officers, also drew a clear moral equivalence between the shootings in NOLA, Minnesota, and Dallas. Period. End of story.

Another problem with swift pronouncements is that it also can breed mythology that continue. Take the still popular "Hands Up, Don't Shoot!" mantra, that I saw written on more than one placard during the protests of this week. Multiple investigations into the death of Michael Brown found that the physical evidence refuted the initial narrative that inflamed much of the country, and backed the officer's claims of justifiable use of force. Yet, how many news stories have I heard this week that list Brown's death in the litany of perceived lethal police excesses in recent times? Answer: more than one. One stories went so say to note that Michael Brown simply was "gunned down" by Ferguson Police. Curiously, there were also often references to Treyvon Martin included, even though it wasn't a police shooting.

All of this, for many, has swirled into other mythologies (as I seen them) that you often hear (and that I've debated with other DISer's in the past when they've expressed them) such as "Police have license to kill young black men!", and "This sort of thing never happens to a white person!" It's not hard to point to cases that contradict both claims... There are certainly cases of convictions of police officers for unlawful deaths of black suspects, as well as whites being the victims of such crimes. And while there are certainly others that are not found guilty of such charges, it if often due to the fact that accused officers get the same rights in a criminal court as the rest of us and the state has the same burden to prove their guilt. That many not please the "courts" that roam our streets, but I think an alternative system would threaten all of our personal liberties.

There's also the notion of "disparities" in policing. As I said earlier, there are certainly abusing that DO exist, and departments that no doubt need to change the way they do business in some manner. But I cringe when I see people trying to use raw statistics to "prove" racism. In post #295, a link is given to the latest study that paints racial bias in policing. Then problem that I've seen with these sorts of studies all too often is that there is little effort to look at context and instead look at this simplistic notion "Disproportional policing = racism." This latest studies finds that police use force against black persons at a rate disproportional to their demographics in each community. Fair enough, but the researchers don't bother to look of the context behind the use (as I see from light reading) other than if the person was being apprehended for a violent crime. It's a short coming that even the authors seem to acknowledge in their conclusions (bolding mine):

Our local police department was the subject of a similar study that the city commissioned a couple of years ago. It looked at traffic stops. As a side note, the consulting firm that produced the study also is in the business to sell their customers "sensitivity" training classes to try and remedy any racial bias that they might uncover. That apparent conflict of interest didn't seem to bother the city officials that paid for the study. The study was completed and found that blacks were stopped by police disproportionately to non-blacks when compared to local demographics. Again, no context as to WHY a stop was initiated was examined. The study did however look at two metrics to determine if it was a "good" stop or a "bad" stop. Those two things were: was a ticket given, and was anything found if a car was then searched. The study found that black drivers that were stopped were less likely to be given a ticket than non-black drivers and searches of the cars of black drivers yielded a lower "success" rate than the search of the cars of non-black drivers. Another irony was lost here too. If a police officer stopped a black driver for, say, playing their stereo at a level that violated noise ordinances and only gave them a verbal warning (to quote a Chris Rock video) of "Turn that ____ down!", then this study deemed it a "bad stop" that was evidence of racial disparity. So, letting people off with only a warning painted their department in a bad light. Another assumption of the studies was that all races exhibited driving behaviors that might have gotten them stopped equally. For example, blasting music from their cars. The reason I use this example is that it was a news story of a stop of a black youth for a loud car stereo that escalated into a confrontation that resulted in a driver's arrest that was part of the impetuous for the city to commission the study. Past studies have indicated that there may be racial differences in driving habits that could explain at least some of disparities, and I'm not claiming that the same is true when it comes to things like operating a vehicle with a burned out taillight or headlight, but until you look at such factors I think they can get skewed results.

In regards to the subject of racial disparities in police shootings, here's some recent research by Washington State University that's interesting in that it seems to point to the notion that police may actually be more hesitant to fire on black suspects. Though the WSU study used simulations, they can provide insight. Another great example of this was from Phoenix last year when a local minister, who had previously organized protests against local police for the shooting of an unarmed man latter accepted the invitation of the county Sheriff to go through some use of force scenarios. This experience very much changed the minister's understanding of the complex nature of such things:

Excellent, rational post. I wish everyone could have the benefit of the training that the activist received in that video. It is all about compliance.

 

[manning]

One thing has been determined......ASSUME...ASSUME... ASSUME.

I assume I'm right. Wait a minute I don't know what to assume

 

[manning]

Your assuming their numbers and analysis are correct.

I think we are both assuming.