Behavior Challenge Thread

[BeckyScott]

DisDreamin, I grew up in a clutter-bug house. It wasn't dirty, but it was full. I was raised by my great g-ma who was Depression-Era, and so you know she never threw anything away. Cool Whip containers, plastic bread bags, the whole nine yards. And my g-ma and mom followed right along. I was the rebellious one. Up to about a year ago I was a mod on an organizing board that no longer exists, so I really have tried to implement a bunch of stuff. Some of it works, some doesn't.

So, for example, we have a Launch Pad. It's not the greatest one, cause the house is small and there wasn't a good place for it, but it does exist. The kids will put things there if they are reminded every time. But like I said before, DS will put his shoes there and the next morning he can't find his shoes. Hmmm.

It's not just the laundry, I have the same problem with trash. At one point I decided that it looked better to have multiple wastebaskets in a room, rather than trash sitting around, neither one was great but the wastebaskets didn't look quite so bad. And the trash just ended up on the closest horizontal surface, even if there was a wastebasket within arm's reach. The only advantage was that then I personally didn't have to get up, later, when I was clearing off a desk, I'd left myself a wastebasket handy.

I guess what's confusing to me is that literature will tell you, for kids with autism, routine and predictability are very important. I interpreted that, as far as our home goes, that it is important for things to be almost hyper-organized, everything in it's place, so it was very predictable. Things were in the same place every time. That this whole concept was very important for the ASD crowd. And you'll hear plenty of stories about kids on the spectrum who have things obsessively lined up and organized just so in their rooms. My children, on the other hand, do not seem to give a rat's patootie about it. Yes, DS will sometimes decide to make a sculpture out of dominoes or something like that, and will expect it to be left alone for a few days. But it can be surrounded by total chaos. Oldest DS will take food into his room and it will stay there, and indeed we have had ants *magically appear* which freaked him out and there is a fully logical reason it happened and I left the food there on purpose because I knew it would turn into a teaching moment. And it worked that time, but since I guess ants don't show up every single time, he'll take his chances and fix it once it happens.

And yes, I'll send him to school in dirty clothes. Done it. With him it's not so much dirt as stink, pubescent male stink. He's borrowed deodorant off the school nurse before. But the lesson doesn't stick. And I guess all the boys in his class must stink, because it hasn't had any social repercussions. Yet.

 

[Brightsy]

My kids, too, don't seem to mind the clutter of my home. We've got a lot of stuff, and since I'm ADHD and a lousy housekeeper things are often messy (not dirty, but messy). There's logic within my chaos, and the kids don't give a hoot. At school they have things set up just so, and in their rooms there are certain things that are just so, but by and large it's not a big deal.
My younger son also likes to have his little built things left alone. We've had the Indy JOnes Temple Escape leggo set up on the middle of the coffee table to 2 weeks now and Lord forbid we move it. When he's out of his Indy phase he'll take it down himself.

 

[Schmeck]

Schemck,

You are correct that logical perceptions do differ between spectrum individuals, but these differences are only a small percentage of the perceptions differentials that come from neurotypical social distortions (or standards depending on your point of view).

I am a great believer in teaching our children skills so they can have the choice as to which, how much and when to apply them. Saying that the neorotypical “way” is the “right” way is to devalue what and who they are at the core.

We live in a world developed from and controlled by neurotypical social standards and live every day with that discriminatory situation, that is just reality at this point. It is a very difficult (almost impossible) thing for most neurotyipicals to divorce themselves from the innate prewired social “standards” that they were born with and have live with throughout their lives so it is never surprising that they cannot appreciate how illogical it is to spectrum individuals.

bookwormde

Have you read Mark Haddon's book? Does it seem like a typical teenager with Asperger's Syndrome to you? Things that were logical to him (seeing 4 yellow cars in a row meant it had to be a bad day for him) are logical for all people with Asperger's?

 

[bookwormde]

Schmeck,

I usually do not read “novels” about spectrum individuals, especially when by someone who has not had a lifelong commitment to the community.

Even he admits “I've explained above I don't think I have a unique understanding of the autistic mind” so while based on an individual of the spectrum it is basically a fictional interpretation.

bookwormde

 

[Schmeck]

yes, but Tony Attwood uses fictional stories too.

 

[mechurchlady]

Schmeck,

I usually do not read “novels” about spectrum individuals, especially when by someone who has not had a lifelong commitment to the community.

Even he admits “I've explained above I don't think I have a unique understanding of the autistic mind” so while based on an individual of the spectrum it is basically a fictional interpretation.
bookwormde

I looked up Mark Haddon and his works are fictional. He does not openly state the source of his knowledge about autism. He worked with some kids with autism over 20 years ago but how and in what capicity would a person i their early 20's have with autistic kids.

MH: I did no specific research at all. Many years ago I worked with people with a variety of disabilities (all of them more seriously disabled than Christopher), so I feel comfortable writing about the subject and have what you might call an interested layperson's knowledge of autism and Asperger's. Beyond that I reasoned (rightly, I think, in retrospect) that the novel would work best if I simply tried to make Christopher seem like a believable human being, rather than trying to make him medically 'correct'. In short, if I treated him like any other character and didn't make him a special case.

MH: What I said above answers much of this question. But I should add that many of the kids I was working with 20 years ago were almost certainly autistic. However, the diagnosis was far more conjectural at the time.

These days, if you have a reasonably large group of friends and you are as nosy as I am about people's personal lives, you will almost certainly know people with a child who has been diagnosed with autism or Asperger's.

So, I guess the answer is a little personal knowledge, no research and a lot of imagination

Tony Atwood is a great author and he uses fiction because he cannot talk about the private people he meets. Fiction detaches me from the real person but still explains what the person with autism goes through.

 

[BeckyScott]

Brightsy, both boys also have ADHD diagnoses, primarily inattentive. It's interesting to see which things appear with both diagnoses, especially when the particulars are things that are almost opposite.

As far as the whole fiction/non-fiction thing, in my opinion there are sometimes things that kids (at least kids, as I have little experience with adults) will do that aren't completely logical. At our house, these are mostly sensory issues. So while there is good reason from the ASD perspective as it is a sensory issue, at the same time sensory issues are part of the diagnosis. They are also sometimes things having to do with routine, that are important for ASD but aren't always logical.

I will use examples from my house since they aren't fictional. (I guess they could be, I could be making this all up, but I'll trust that this far into the game you all believe these two children really exist) For example, DS won't wear mittens. He will only wear fingerless gloves, and he doesn't like to wear them very much. It's sensory. But there is, of course, a very logical reason why one should wear gloves. I can explain it to him and he understands, and he's quite good at science and has seen plenty of Discovery Channel, but the sensory need outweighs the logic.

He will always sit in the same spot in my car. There really isn't a logical reason why. It started out because the kids will argue over whether the sky is blue and whatever seat one wanted, the other one would automatically want. But now oldest DS is big enough for the front seat (air bag) and youngest DS has free reign of the back seat. He will only sit behind me, he will not get in the other door and scoot, must go in the door behind mine, must sit behind me. He also will not use the shoulder strap part of the seat belt, he puts it behind him, and is really only using the lap belt. It's sensory, the shoulder strap bugs him. But for heaven's sake, there is a very good reason the shoulder strap is there, other than a sensory issue there isn't any sort of logical explanation why one shouldn't use the shoulder strap. On the contrary, there are plenty plenty plenty of reasons why seat belts exist. Just the other day oldest DS was lecturing him about the seat belt and Gloria Estefan's bus accident (which they learned about in music class for some reason). But since the sensory problems are directly connected to the ASD, you could boil it down to say that the ASD has caused an "illogical" situation.

(let me add that I will only let him do that if he's in a back seat, if he's in a car where he can sit in the front, he must do the shoulder strap)

Even in my previous post, about DS leaving dishes laying in his room which attracted ants, and youngest DS will also leave dishes laying around, or maybe he'll take a bag of chips into his room to work on a project and leave them there. He knows, and logic will certainly tell you, that if you leave a buffet laying in your room, eventually you will attract guests. However, something (the ADHD, being distracted, thinking it's not his job) keeps him from taking it back to the kitchen. I can't see the logic of leaving dirty dishes in your room, it's an illogical decision. The dishes are even more so, more than laundry not in the basket or trash laying on the computer desk, as the dirty dishes will attract wildlife and dirty dishes smell and depending on the food... it's not the same thing as having a sock under your bed for two months.

I'm sure that if I were more awake I could come up with plenty of other things. But you get the idea. I don't buy into some of the fictional oddities that the mainstream media uses- cheese poofs on a toothpick- but I don't think it's fair to say that the ASD crowd uses logic 100% of the time, either, and that anything else is purely a social standard.

 

[mechurchlady]

Waits for Becky to get her java fix and hug.

Actually I think that the OCD, ADHD, OCD, HSC, SID, etc. are separate form neurovariations. I have neurovariations but am not autistic. I think differently from others but not as bad as if I were autistic. Those neurovariations are separate from my SID and moms HSC. A person with cancer and OCD does considers them two separate things not that cancer causes OCD or vice versus.

Your kids have the logical neurovariation brain. Then added was other things that are separate from the neurovariant brain. I know I should not do stuff like cuss at bots as that is socially wrong and illogical as bots are not going to respond. Sensory and other issues send me into the not fair bug rage and over rides the social and logical state of mind. The logical and social for different reasons say that changing clothes is good for a person and stinky old clothes is bad. The depressed and overwhelmed quirks overrule the social and logical states of mind and say that I am to tired, do not care or what ever. Menawhile sensory loves the feel of that warm snug soft and comfty shirt and sweatshirt. Do I have to take them warm clothes off? I am so comfty overrules the logical and social that are demanding I change clothes.

I hope that explains things, Becky.

Big hugs and chocolates and one fat old lady free with paid shipping.
Trade you one mother for 20 kids. It only took 5 tries to explain who was on the phone, the diabetes testing equipment provider, and then have her have fits for me being to aggressive then a story from her about companies which is not fact based and stupid and now she is snitty.
Will throw in 10 kilos of chocolates and 20 gallons of coffee.

 

[bookwormde]

Glove logic, the cold is less uncomfortable that the full gloves.

Car logic, why should I sit where I am less comfortable; cure, show him pictures of the nature of injuries that occur when not wearing the shoulder belt.

Dishes, ants are “fun”, mind has “moved on” so chips are not in the picture. Food smell and visitors do not bother him. It comes down to 2 factors, things that bother you do not bother him and the linear factory process of “cleaning up” is not a “natural thing” so it takes “buying into it” as a logical skill which has to be taught in detail with practical experience that have an impact.

I know I am not being very helpful but my aspie sarcasm has to come out occasionally.

bookwormde

 

[Schmeck]

Now I get it - "not logical" means I don't want to do it because I don't like it. Everyone has this sense of logic, some people are just more stubborn than others and think that their logic is the only logic out there that makes sense.

I mean it - everyone uses this sense of logic. But when you can't realize that your logic isn't the do-all end-all of logic, then you have conflict. What step of self-realization was it? Something about side-by-side play turning into actually playing together, usually happens around the preschool timeframe?

Anyways, we all use logic to get through our day, just that different stuff seems logical to me, while other stuff seems logical to my husband, my daughter, my mother, etc. While one child with Asperger's may have to sit in one certain spot in the car, another child with Asperger's may not give one hoot about where he sits. Different logic for different people.

To correct certain behaviors (like leaving dirty dishes out - can actually cause some major damage to the home if done enough - check under the carpets for larvae) setting up consequences can create success. As in, no food in the rooms if you can't remember to clean up the dishes. We got to a point where we had to contain all food in one room of the house. No one was allowed to eat anywhere except the kitchen. The logic behind that was that no one was good at cleaning up, and the larvae under the carpet were getting rambuncious... If the kids protest, don't buy anything but meal food - no snacks, no candy, etc. They won't starve in one week, and the point will get across.

 

[mechurchlady]

Not logical means that something does not fit the logic of the individual or entity. It is illogical to put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher then put then in the cabinets without turning on the dishwasher. To me it is illogical to do one thing at a time like go get the mail instead of going to the bathroom, take a load of trash out, rotate the laundry, get the newspaper, and then get the mail. Mother is the most illogical person I think.

To a kid it is illogical to assume that curly fries are the same as regular fries. To a kid it is illogical to lay on a bed when the floor is more comfortable.
To a kid it is illogical to wear clothes in a certain way as why do we have to have our clothes on right side out if it is more comfortable inside out.

For me it is illogical for me, a leftie, to have to have the table setting the wrong way.

The problem with the kids is that there is an internal pecking order. Imagine a group of men in a person's brain. The first is logic which says wear gloves. The second is social dude saying that society says to wear gloves. The peer dude says the person is a freak for not wearing gloves in winter. Then comes the giant sensory dude and he pummels the other dudes into submission. "No gloves" he screams in a voice that drowns out all the other voices. The brain is wracked with internal conflict. The brain knows the body is being cold and thus affected by Sensory Dude but he is too big and strong to be stopped so the brain takes actions like not going out in the cold, avoiding going places and if all else fails fingerless gloves.

Sorry for the story but that is how I think and see my brain.
Big hugs and chocloates
Laurie

 

[bookwormde]

It is a real “leap” for NTs to learn the skill of separating themselves from their innate social wiring, most can never do it. Most NT’s “logic” is always significantly distorted by their social mind, and general experience. “Stubborn” has a major social content in it, spectrum individuals are insistent in their opinions until they can be demonstrated the inaccuracy in their logic.

Different spectrum individuals certainly will have different logic based on their knowledge and experience; it is just not (or to a greatly lesser degree) distorted by social conventions.

In the end it really comes down to “getting it” (the nature of the autistic mind), many people do not want to “get it” because it challenges what they assume is standard existence and that is very scary, in some cases the innate social structure is just too engrained either by genetics or traumatic conditioning for the intellectual process and capabilities to overcome it, and some people just do not care to consider the possibility of another way of “existence”. In any case this is fine as long as they do not try to dictate their social standards on others.

For those who are struggling with this difficult concept generally the journey comes in small “got it” moments until enough of these come together to crate a broader understanding of a the autistic experience. About all you can do to speed this up is to be open minded and read as many current clinical works and attend presentations by world renowned and respected clinicians.

For educators, parents, clinicians and caregivers once this understanding is gained it has been my observation that their ability to “help” spectrum individuals obtain the adaptive skills to exist in the innately discriminatory NT social world grows exponentially, and the anxiety based damage that they do to spectrum individuals by trying to force social standards on them diminishes to almost zero.

Scmeck,

The “behavior modification model” that you are putting forward has in study after study been shown to be only effective on a very specific behavior and only while the consequences are reinforced for spectrum individuals and generalization to other situations is virtually non existent, that is why many clinicians are moving to the logic/skill based approach. For behaviors that are initially dangerous or damaging it is sometimes needed but for all other situation is becoming antiquated.

With the rate of progress of clinical understanding of the Autism spectrum, if you stay in the autism education field, in 10 years you will “look back” and wonder how many of your current assumptions could have existed. I am sure some of mine will be modified also.

bookwormde

 

[DisDreaminMom]

You all are getting way to deep here and throwing around too many acronyms for me to plow through without a second cup of coffee. I'll check back later when the caffeine has kicked in.

P.S. Is there anywhere else on the web with this many smart people? (Talking about ASD...)

 

[Cheshire Figment]

You all are getting way to deep here and throwing around too many acronyms for me to plow through without a second cup of coffee. I'll check back later when the caffeine has kicked in.

P.S. Is there anywhere else on the web with this many smart people? (Talking about ASD...)

Yes, the passworded Mensa Talk forums.

 

[bookwormde]

DisDreaminMom

If you are really looking for a place then with a lot of high IQs I will not recommend, but provide you with www.wrongplanet.net/

I will warn you up front it is heavily populated by aspies (including those formally diagnosed as on the spectrum).

For parents of children who do not “get it” completely yet you might want to avoid it as it may “scare the heck out of you”.

Members tend to be very direct (what a surprise for aspies)

There are lots who self adapted to only a limited percentage and there are lots of maladaptive manifestations discussed and otherwise apparent (not surprising since many grew up before the “modern era of autism”).

Many times the threads even give me a headache (I actually lost my PW a few month ago and have not gotten up the ambition to retrieve it).

As you might expect with a forum populated by high IQ spectrum individuals they often “talk past” each other.

While reasonable well moderated it is certainly the completely friendly place that disBoards is.

Again enter at your own risk.


If I ever use terminology that anyone has a question about I am happy to repeat the explanation for those who did not catch it in some of my earlier posts, just ask. With thousands of hours of studying the clinical works, studies and reports plus talking with clinicians I guess is slip into clinical speak without realizing it.


BeckyScott

On the sensory logic thing I will give an example that might help.

If an individual has a sensory variation for temperature sensitivity (is overly sensitive) and picks up a hammer that has been lying in the sun and feels the heat and drops it, that is perfectly logical, even if it falls and breaks his/her foot, just as it would be for a NT if it actually was hot enough to burn them. It is certainly not desirable but it is “logical” based on the sensory input.


bookwormde

 

[mechurchlady]

Becky I try to put it in layman's terms and explain how it works for me. I now wonder if I am not an aspie because I understand bookwormde so much and so well. I wonder because there are high functioning and the ones with major challenges facing them. 51 years old means that I adapted without knowing what was possibly wrong with me or my mother who is a social pariah in some ways.

Becky have some more coffee and just go with the flow and let it sink in. You are dealing not with an austistic child but a child who has other factors such as religion, culture, gender, and other quirks like OCD, ADD, ODD, SID, HSD, and on and on. Right now I need to go outside but it is too cold. The logic says I need to do some stuff soon even if it rains but the sensory and the body in general are happy snug and warm in bed at the computer. I am a mess because of them battles.

Hugs Becky and gives her more coffee. Becky is it true that your idea of a WDW vacation is a coffee around the world tour at Epcot?

 

[DisDreaminMom]

Cheshire Figment, my mother made me do MENSA testing when I was little but anything with numbers freaks me out. (I got a perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT and failed the math part). My sister was the triple threat kind-she could do anything they put in front of her, but my I.Q. is higher. I think I got the E.Q. (emotional quotient, it was popular a while ago, and lost cache' for some reason- most likely because it's crap). I grew up with a lot of the "wasted talent" lectures. MENSA people are intimidating to me. Not because they are smarter than I am, but because they think they are

I think I'm more along the lines of Temple Grandin. I totally get her logic. Wanna know what's the deal with your horse, dog, cat, or combination thereof? I'm your gal. I was forced to take Calculus and Trigonometry in college to graduate and I never got a single problem right without the use of a calculator (and even then...). The Indian-retired-IBM-computer -whiz professor gave me a B in both classes because I got the logic of the problems but the "numbers got me all confused".

Had a really good time this afternoon playing an old National Geographical Society game with my 6 year old. My mom's friend was a geography teacher that helped design the game and gave them to my son yesterday (he likes maps a lot- not as much as France itself, but a close second). I modified the game and made him pick a picture game card and guess first and then read the location and find it on the world map. He's spitting out "Indonesia" and "Czechoslovakia", etc. And he knew where every place was, even the tiny little Asian countries. So behavior challenges aside, I totally pick my kid just for the fact that he doesn't like Pokeman.

My problem with other Aspie or brainy chat rooms? At a certain point it becomes a pissing contest. I'd rather talk to the kids, dogs, or you guys. Mechurchlady, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I'll give some to you.

Bookwormde, I think if I took the time to read more than my Tony Attwood or the other garbage at the library, then I would "get it" more, but I don't want to lose my perspective on the fact that my kid has the best chance of being happy and productive if I help him live in "our" world, not "his". Becky is really good at hitting this point to me. She's a sharp one, that Becky.

My last question- isn't logic all subjective anyway? I mean, even the schizophrenic guy has a certain logic to his actions when he kills the baby because it spoke with the voice of Satan. I'm just saying that unless you're a dyed in the wool Communist or Dr. Spock, then logic is whatever an individual wants it to be unless all the individuals are brainwashed into thinking group-think. (yep, everyone hated me in Psych class, too!). So this idea of Aspie logic being different than NT logic to me is a moot point. Human A's logic will most likely be different than Human B's logic unless both are taught the consequences of the behavior (i.e. laws that groups of people follow- and within that group, there will always be some people who do not follow the "rules"). It's an age old question. And who's logic is better? Who determines that? I'll tell you who- it's the guy that wins the war.

 

[mechurchlady]

I am in a self destructive negative mood so I do not give myself credit as I have been called a failure all my life and am an outcast even in my own church.

The thing with logic and neurovariants is that the neurovariant relies mostly on logic instead of other factors like peer pressure and social skills. Normally a kid will move to a new seat in the car because mom said so. The neurovariant will not move as it is illogical to move to a possibly worse seat and illogical to move from a familiar safe spot. Mom is the driver and she is going to be very safe to sit behind as she will not want to get into an accident. That is logical.

Everyone has their own set of rules for logic but how much logic you use is the problem for neurovariants. Also do not stop with Tony ATwood but read everything else out there like Temple Grandin as there are many opinions and some great things out there to read about and some are old school or stupid like the vaccine theory that was based on a study of a dozen kids. Now that is illogical.

Hugs and chocolates
Laurie

 

[BeckyScott]

Oh man, way too much information this morning. Starting with Schmeck and that larvae-under-the-carpet thing, and my brain just fell out and rolled to the corner of the living room. (old house, uneven floors)

I think I'm going to spend the next day or two driving my kid(s) crazy, and asking them "why?" every time they do something, just to see what they tell me. My own personal science experiment in logic. I've done it before with some success. Just a couple of weeks ago DS's teacher told me he'd been flapping a lot more than usual, a whole lot more. And while she didn't expect me to "fix" it (as if) but she wanted me to know. I asked DS if he knew why it was happening. And he told me, plain as day, that he was bored and when he is bored he starts thinking about other stuff, and when he thinks very hard, he flaps. Oh, okay. I guess that means he didn't think very much first semester but I'll go along with that explanation. He's verbal enough he can usually explain himself, so long as he isn't having a tantrum or crying and is too far gone to talk clearly.

I had some other thoughts I was trying to put together, but it will need to wait. It's gotten jumbled up in my brain too much right now.

 

[Schmeck]

Becky, sorry about the larvae! I've found that explaining the consequences to my daughter (who could probably be diagnosed with Asperger's, but I find no need to have the diagnosis as she is functioning fine enough without it.) and showing how to solve a problem so it doesn't happen again makes sense to her.

I think asking the kids why they do something is absolutely the thing to do - I do it all day at work. Even ask your son how he felt before/during/after a tantrum (although I tend to think of/call them energy releases) and praise the positive things that he does during them and after. As long as he is not hurting himself or anyone else, focus on the need for the release and then focus afterwards on some alternative strategies if possible. I wish I could use some scenarios from work, but student confidentiality has me pretty limited in what I can share. Maybe after I retire I'll write my own book?